Aldryami vs uz

[Atgxtg]

It's pretty much a walk over for the elves, as long as the fight starts at range and the elves have the chance to keep their distance (basically skimish). Arrows are extremely effective since they can impale and a character can usually fire two shot a round. Plus  there is a lot of good battlemagic, such as speedart, multimissile, and mobility, that all plays well into this. Trolls might be good with slings but they're just not in the same league. 

 

Now, in an enclosed space, where the trolls can get into melee, it quickly shifts into their favor. Most of the trolls advantages kick in then. 

 

[Atgxtg]

On 12/28/2017 at 8:04 AM, David Scott said:

On the surface world yes, but I suspect many more in the Underworlds.

But what percentage of Uz are trollkin? Troll forces are made up with a few tough tanks, supported by lots of second rate skirmishers.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Atgxtg

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Al. said:

And don't Dryads have control over all creatures born in their glades?

In my Glorantha, powerrful Dryads have pregnant bears/wolves staked out in their glades, so they give birth there. Also, dinosaue eggs can be placed in Dryad Groves, so they have control of them when they hatch. Power-Gaming Dryads? Oh yes.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Most of the trolls advantages kick in then. 

The real troll advantages kick in during Darkseason.   Most of the dryads and nymphs must sleep, as must the brown elves.  And the extended nighttime allows the trolls to bring in more hordes of shadows to blind the elves and attack the trees.

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It's pretty much a walk over for the elves, as long as the fight starts at range and the elves have the chance to keep their distance (basically skimish). Arrows are extremely effective since they can impale and a character can usually fire two shot a round. Plus  there is a lot of good battlemagic, such as speedart, multimissile, and mobility, that all plays well into this. Trolls might be good with slings but they're just not in the same league. 

 

Now, in an enclosed space, where the trolls can get into melee, it quickly shifts into their favor. Most of the trolls advantages kick in then. 

 

It's ENTIRELY a walkover for the elves in their forests.  Outside of it?  I'm not so sure.  Underground would be utterly trollish advantage.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, powerrful Dryads have pregnant bears/wolves staked out in their glades, so they give birth there. Also, dinosaue eggs can be placed in Dryad Groves, so they have control of them when they hatch. Power-Gaming Dryads? Oh yes.

So that's why they call them Army Ants. They're not just for picnics anymore!

[Runeblogger]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

I recently ran a skirmish between a gang of Zorak Zoran worshiping dark trolls attacking a roughly equal number of elf archers in a woods. The players had been recruited by the elves to help them out. It turns out they were completely unnecessary - the elves pretty much wiped out the trolls before they even got close.

What spells did each side use? What armour were the trolls wearing? How far were the trolls from the elves when the elves spotted them?

Edited January 1, 2018 by Runeblogger
Added questions

[Pentallion]

On 12/30/2017 at 10:04 AM, Runeblogger said:

I'd love it if you could elaborate a bit on both.  I've been toying with the idea of running an all-elf campaign for years.

All I can say is, the trolls had a Black Box and intended to pop into the middle of The Garden and set it off.  At least, they discussed it.  Then I told them that the elf characters from the all elf campaign would be the ones defending the place and the raid never happened.  We knew one troll would escape, because he could turn into a shadow.  The rest wouldn't make it out alive, even with the Black Box killing the elves.

[Pentallion]

Double post. sorry.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Pentallion

[Runeblogger]

12 hours ago, Pentallion said:

All I can say is, the trolls had a Black Box and intended to pop into the middle of The Garden and set it off.  At least, they discussed it.  Then I told them that the elf characters from the all elf campaign would be the ones defending the place and the raid never happened.  We knew one troll would escape, because he could turn into a shadow.  The rest wouldn't make it out alive, even with the Black Box killing the elves.

Interesting. So the same players who first played the all elf campaign then played the all troll campaign, right? It would have been cool if the two campaigns had taken place simultaneously with different players on each side! 
Can you tell us any cool stories from the elf campaign? What was their goal? How different were the elf PCs?

[jeffjerwin]

I've been contemplating a tangental problem for some time - See my Volsaxi questions thread comments - regarding the existence of the Troll Woods there. Normally regular forests would be eaten.

Ultimately I had a theory about a lost secret of I Fought We Won and "Forest Shadow" (an elf version of Argan Argar/Surface Darkness) that allowed (originally) for a symbiosis. But I also have things warped by the seizure of a dryad by a ZZ undead rune lord and her imprisonment in a barrow, so that as with fire there's a localized dominance by ZZ. However, just as with the most human Kitori, there's a "Shade" and "Obscurity" tradition that lies forgotten but technically accessible to the remnants of the Aldryami there.

I like exceptions in my Glorantha.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I've been contemplating a tangental problem for some time - See my Volsaxi questions thread comments - regarding the existence of the Troll Woods there. Normally regular forests would be eaten.

The deeper secret here is that the Kitori aren't really Kyger Litor trolls (although they certainly can take their shape, and more often than not do) and aren't subject to the Curse of Kin. They actually can and do have human agriculture and farming, if in a very primitive and darkness-centered way, as it is only one of several of their mainstays. Collecting tribute was of course their main source of income and to some extend also food, in exchange for messenger and peacekeeper duties.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The deeper secret here is that the Kitori aren't really Kyger Litor trolls (although they certainly can take their shape, and more often than not do) and aren't subject to the Curse of Kin.

I'd likely go with the idea that the Kitori helped protect the sleeping trees with an oath made in the Underworld with the sleeping elves/dryads.  In return, the trees when woken would blot out the light of the sun from reaching the ground.  Consequently, the trees of the Troll Woods have a very dense canopy.  There are probably very few elves, with the Kitori largely acting as the protectors and benefactors of the trees.  Argan Argar would be the primary cult, encouraging trade and the harmony of the shadows rather than ZZ.

[GianniVacca]

Are the Kitori trolls? I thought they were Darkness-worshipping humans.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I'd likely go with the idea that the Kitori helped protect the sleeping trees with an oath made in the Underworld with the sleeping elves/dryads.  In return, the trees when woken would blot out the light of the sun from reaching the ground.  Consequently, the trees of the Troll Woods have a very dense canopy.  There are probably very few elves, with the Kitori largely acting as the protectors and benefactors of the trees.  Argan Argar would be the primary cult, encouraging trade and the harmony of the shadows rather than ZZ.

Yep! A pretty on spot description of what I came up with too!

Edited January 4, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

44 minutes ago, GianniVacca said:

Are the Kitori trolls? I thought they were Darkness-worshipping humans.

It depends on what you mean by troll, my friend. There are ways to be both; just talk to to the Shadow Lords and Ezkankekko about that. And Arkat. Argan Argar is not a troll, after all, but he appears to be one to dark sense. Men see him differently.

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Argan Argar is not a troll, after all, but he appears to be one to dark sense. Men see him differently.

Argan Argar is a god, so neither troll nor human, but certainly of Darkness.  His son, Ezkankekko the Only Old One, was the figure who was neither troll nor human.

The Kitori are nominally human, but can appear to be more/other.  But they are not trolls.

[jeffjerwin]

32 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Argan Argar is a god, so neither troll nor human, but certainly of Darkness.  His son, Ezkankekko the Only Old One, was the figure who was neither troll nor human.

The Kitori are nominally human, but can appear to be more/other.  But they are not trolls.

Of course. Well, they are not descended from Kyger Litor. But they have the Darkness and Man runes, which makes things murky.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

But they have the Darkness and Man runes, which makes things murky.

Argan Argar is Darkness and Exchange (or Harmony, depending on which work you are using), and is the son of Xentha, goddess of Night.  So no Man rune there (though certainly not directly descended from the Hell Mother).  

Sartar Companion, p.248 notes that Ezkankekko "was the Reconciler. To suit everyone, he had no set shape, but always appeared to be of whatever race the speaker was."  He was the child of Argan Argar and Esrola (GtG p.234), so again no Man rune involved.  

Varzor Kitor was of unknown parentage (IIRC), but would have been of the Man rune.  The Guide (p.235) notes "Varzor Kitor accepted and learned the deepest secrets of the Darkness at the feet of the Only Old One."  One of these secrets would have been the shadows ability to change shape and size.

[jeffjerwin]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

 Varzor Kitor was of unknown parentage (IIRC), but would have been of the Man rune.  The Guide (p.235) notes "Varzor Kitor accepted and learned the deepest secrets of the Darkness at the feet of the Only Old One."  One of these secrets would have been the shadows ability to change shape and size.

Was not Varzor a Heortling as well? After all, his descendants/adoptive descendants are Kitori and Orlanth-worshippers alongside the Troll Gods, and the name Kitori originally designated the humankind in the Unity Council (BoHM, p.128): "In the Darkness, we were all Kitori. The Kitori thrived in the Unity Council days. The term "Kitori" was used broadly in the Silver Age and in the Dawn Age. The Heortling king was often called King of the Kitori, though in accuracy he was a King Among the Kitori. For many people the Kitori were synonymous with the Unity Council. During the period of the High Council of the Lands of Genertela, the Kitori were increasingly associated with just Kethaela and the Heortling kings were rarely called "Kitori".

Thus Varzor is likely - but not, I'd admit, conclusively - a Heortling. It's interesting that Varzor could also become a woman and bear children through this power: this is obviously not a power known to trolls, unless is a very dark secret. I wonder if the Kitori Kings or Queens still know this, but it seems like something only a Hero can do.

It's also interesting to compare the Kitori Shadow Lord's changing/altering powers to the changing/making new power of the Larnstings, whom they shared northeastern Kethaela with. It's very curious indeed...

(Presently developing an episode for my game called "The Man in the Leaden Mask...")

In any case earlier it was said that Aldryami hate Trolls. I think "hate" is a bad word for their attitude for the Eater, which has been a natural part of the World since the Compromise. Everything in proportion... Without fire, rot, cool shade, and insects, there would be neither soil nor new life.

Are there any trolls at all in the Kitori Wilds? Any troll kin? I always thought there were some true trolls and such there alongside the Kitori.

[Joerg]

I think that Varzor was distant kin to Aram ya Udram, another prominent non-Heortling human of the region and era. Dark Earth Orlanthi (or Dark Earth Theyalans), not Heortlings, and no Vingkotling relation either. Whether there is a link to Harand Boardick or Drolgalar Orlanthsson is speculation, but how many different humans with dark connections do we expect?

But back to the topic of uz and forests, apart from the jungle trolls who live in an environment that regrows almost as fast as it can be eaten and the Kitori woods, there are no known places where trolls and forests coexist for a long time. Xemstown in Fronela will be interesting when the Ban lifts.

The uz concept of sustainability pertains to darkness, not to plant growth, They will rely on fungal growth, which might even possess autotrophy (Growth) in Darkness (stygosynthesis or umbrasynthesis?) - we are talking about Glorantha here. Fungus might get predatory only when the darkness is impure.

[jeffjerwin]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

IBut back to the topic of uz and forests, apart from the jungle trolls who live in an environment that regrows almost as fast as it can be eaten and the Kitori woods, there are no known places where trolls and forests coexist for a long time. Xemstown in Fronela will be interesting when the Ban lifts.

The uz concept of sustainability pertains to darkness, not to plant growth, They will rely on fungal growth, which might even possess autotrophy (Growth) in Darkness (stygosynthesis or umbrasynthesis?) - we are talking about Glorantha here. Fungus might get predatory only when the darkness is impure.

There is one other forest - or quasi-forest with both Aldryami and Trolls - The Vale of Flowers in Dagori Inkarth.

[Joerg]

Just now, jeffjerwin said:

There is one other forest - or quasi-forest with both Aldryami and Trolls - The Vale of Flowers in Dagori Inkarth.

Troll presence here is rather limited - mainly the bee tribe bee herders, nowadays trollkin, although that role must have been filled by Gorakiki-worshipping uzko before the Curse of Kin.

There is a lot we don't know about the Vale of Flowers - are the flowers perennial, or do they shoot up like crazy each spring with the thaw of the snow? And this is giant land rather than troll or aldryami land.

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

There is one other forest - or quasi-forest with both Aldryami and Trolls - The Vale of Flowers in Dagori Inkarth.

We also don't know much about life in the Stinking Forest.  It was part of a greater elf forest, but clearly has been impacted by the presence of the Tusk Riders.  And trolls going from Halikiv to Dagori Inkarth are most likely to pass through there rather than going up Snakepipe Hollow.

[jeffjerwin]

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

We also don't know much about life in the Stinking Forest.  It was part of a greater elf forest, but clearly has been impacted by the presence of the Tusk Riders.  And trolls going from Halikiv to Dagori Inkarth are most likely to pass through there rather than going up Snakepipe Hollow.

That's the route - Halikiv to Tarsh to the Stinking Forest to Dagori Inkarth that the Swarm took in 1623...