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Elmal Yelmalio thing

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17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Well, there are definite similarities, but I don't really like the idea of Yelmalio and Elmal as being the same god. It just doesn't... fit, in my head. I just can't really look from one to the other and go, "Yeah, that's just two cultures seeing the same god."

And according to Six Ages the Hyalorings, at least, agree, as Little Yelm is a totally separate god from Elmal there.

Just another perspective. And Little Yelm may or may not be be Yelmalio - Yelmalio is a relatively recent name for the Cold Sun god... and of decidedly Southern Pelorian origin, like Elmal, but unlike the Dara Happan sun gods.

During Time, the religions of the southern Pelorian Cold Sun god(s) have been influenced by the styles and outlook of the northerners, but are still quite distinct.

It's a bit like the numerous Indo-European storm gods - lots of names but very similar characteristics, over many millennia, and they blur with the Mesopotamian storm gods to a degree.

Edited by M Helsdon
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20 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Just another perspective. And Little Yelm may or may not be be Yelmalio - Yelmalio is a relatively recent name for the Cold Sun god... and of decidedly Southern Pelorian origin, like Elmal, but unlike the Dara Happan sun gods.

During Time, the religions of the southern Pelorian Cold Sun god(s) have been influenced by the styles and outlook of the northerners, but are still quite distinct.

It's a bit like the numerous Indo-European storm gods - lots of names but very similar characteristics, over many millennia, and they blur with the Mesopotamian storm gods to a degree.

We can see some misattributions and misnaming in the Gods Wall in the Guide... What if the god now called Yelmalio (which pretty likely means 'Little Yelm') is not the same god as the original? Certainly Yelm had more than one son, and the function of being the 'Little Yelm' (i.e., the Sun's vicegerent) could have shifted. 

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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

We can see some misattributions and misnaming in the Gods Wall in the Guide... What if the god now called Yelmalio (which pretty likely means 'Little Yelm') is not the same god as the original? Certainly Yelm had more than one son, and the function of being the 'Little Yelm' (i.e., the Sun's vicegerent) could have shifted. 

Yelm has eight sons/daughters, and none quite match... For my (probably over deep) analysis of the issue, see:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7262-elmal-yelmalio-thing/?do=findComment&comment=111872

The attributes of none of Yelm's sons/daughters quite match Yelmalio or his sister Yelorna, and the history of the architecture of the temples is probably misleading.

Perhaps there will be new information in the new Gods of Glorantha...

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56 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelm has eight sons/daughters, and none quite match... 

Antirius isn't a perfect match, but in Plantonius's account he was the manifest sun within the dome beneath the ice, is a champion of justice,  was wounded fighting the Cruel God and the Selfish God upon the Hill of Gold, and upon his death his spirit rose as a great hawk. 

That's a lot more like the later Yelmalio tradition than the Elmal lore of the Heortings or the Hyalorings.

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1 hour ago, JonL said:

Antirius isn't a perfect match, but in Plantonius's account he was the manifest sun within the dome beneath the ice, is a champion of justice,  was wounded fighting the Cruel God and the Selfish God upon the Hill of Gold, and upon his death his spirit rose as a great hawk. 

That's a lot more like the later Yelmalio tradition than the Elmal lore of the Heortings or the Hyalorings.

Certainly it was the intention for the writers of the HeroWars and HeroQuest material (Sartar:KoH, p.153) that Elmal = Antirius, as an aspect of his is in fact called Anatyr the Chieftain there. That's obviously the same name. Though for all we know, Antirius/Anatyr is a description too, like "Little Yelm"/Yelmalio.

Edit: indeed, it's plausible that it means chieftain.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelm has eight sons/daughters, and none quite match...

Two of the most important "sons of Yelm" aren't among the Planetary Sons: Golden Bow/Sagittus and Hastatus the Spearman. The Yelmalio cult clearly is the Spear cult, with the Golden Bow (Kuschile) only an allied aspect repatriated at some time.

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Avivorus is the Dawn Age Sunspear hero/avatar, not the warlike footman who may have already fought in concern with the gazzam-carried archer howdas prior to the Flood.

 

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The attributes of none of Yelm's sons/daughters quite match Yelmalio or his sister Yelorna, and the history of the architecture of the temples is probably misleading.

Yelorna does share some of the Zaytenaras attributes IMO. Sedenya claims quite a few of the Planetary Sons as previous incarnations, including Zaytenaras, but at least also Jernedeus/Jernotius and Verithurus(a), and possibly two to five more. Only Shargash never gets identified with Sedenya.

 

 

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13 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelm has eight sons/daughters, and none quite match...

I'm not surprised. Solar mythology was already established before Storm mythology appeared with Umath. Solar mythology has the Gods Wall for reference and they take it as proof that everything is correct in their mythology. With the advent of Storm mythology, the perfect sky was messed and some of its aspects changed by the nature of the Storm. Elmal is ultimately a Solar mythology being co-opted into Storm mythology, changed by the move. Elmal won't fit retrospectively in to Solar mythology. Elmal's origins in solar mythology means he could be collection of parts of others made into a new whole, Storm mythology shaping and discarding parts to make a new whole (likely when he was "married" in)

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18 hours ago, JonL said:

Antirius isn't a perfect match, but in Plantonius's account he was the manifest sun within the dome beneath the ice, is a champion of justice,  was wounded fighting the Cruel God and the Selfish God upon the Hill of Gold, and upon his death his spirit rose as a great hawk. 

That's a lot more like the later Yelmalio tradition than the Elmal lore of the Heortings or the Hyalorings.

Elmal is Lightfore, as is Antirius. A key part of this identification can be taken from the fact that Lighfore never enters the underworld, but appears back in the east when it reaches the western edge of the Sky Dome. Elmal explains this with the myth of 'Elmal Guards the Stead' where despite being wounded unto death, he rises again. Both Elmal and Antirius are lights in the darkness that are a 'little sun', and both have an association with justice. It is possible that the Elmal cult gained some of these associations after contact with the Dara Happan culture. So he could have gained justice bringer or Anatyr at that time.

A better question is whether Yelmalio, the Cold Sun is also Lightfore and Antirius. If the GL identify Yelmalio with Elmal, they must identify him with Lightfore and thus Antirius by inference.

This of course raises the question of why Elmal has no Hill of Gold myth, though it is possible that Elmal Guards the Stead is his structural equivalent, and why Elmal and Antirius have fire powers but Yelmalio does not (I suspect that may be due to his elven origins).

I believe that Yelmalio is an elven perspective of Lightfore, the light in the Darkness, shorn of fire powers to be tree-friendly, who gets merged with Daysenerus, the High Sun by the elves in the First Age Bright Empire. The later GL identification of him is because all of these gods are Lightfore.

But if you look at it, Yelmalio has the most truncated mythology, and doesn't really give access to the wider solar mythology, so he is an invader deity for the Heorltings.

I don't buy that the cult spread beyond Peloria, where it has its main stronghold and Dragon Pass/Prax from contact with the Pelorian Orlanthi due to Empires.

 

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Kargzant is Lightfore, since the Sun Swirl. According to Plentonius, Antirius became the real sun, until his reunion with the rest of Yelm. 

No Hill of Gold for Kargzant. Which possibly means Elmal = Reladivus = Kargzant on some level, with all the horse connections.

Yelorna is Lightfore (when she isn't Ourania).

Yelmalio is Daysenerus, an aspect of Antirius, when he isn't Halamalao the Light atop Flamal's Tree. Pretty much the Sun Dome, that lost warm reflective power of the sky, stripped off him at the Hill of Gold, though still remembered for it. There may be some Ghevengus/Vrimak component that is underplayed except in Balazar.

I am not sure whether Daysenerus really is the High Sun of the Elves. High King Elf and Yelmalio stood side by side in the Darkness (presumably before the Hill of Gold?). Yelmalio in that role wasn't too different from the horse gone sedentary, Elmal.

 

I am not sure whether Shargash wasn't at the Hill of Gold, sharing the ZZ role, or the Orlanth one, when Antirius received one of his wounds.

 

Then there is a deity Lightfore, too, an avatar of Dayzatar rather than a son or fragment of Yelm. No clear horse connection. No appreciable Hill of Gold component, either, though possibly a quest for the Compromise.

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22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

his reunion with the rest of Yelm. 

No Hill of Gold for Kargzant. 

Eager to be corrected by the buserians but these two phrases in tight juxtaposition initially got me wondering if the "Hill of Gold" revelation reflects an archaic theological crisis similar to what Monrogh learned. At one time the Antirius complex was a separate cult isolated from the pantheon the Wall Builder Empire worshipped. Integrating with what they had in Dara Happa required both sacrifice and consolation. Some parts of the community accepted the new myth and ultimately become part of the Yelmalio complex. Others retain what they had and remain more-or-less pure horse people (maybe with some factions joining Yelmalio later). 

On the other hand the Hill of Gold we have is primarily a struggle of a dispossessed heir against various local usurpers and not a Multiple Suns scenario. There's no rival and superior sun god here to challenge proto-Yelmalio's ownership of his own Fire and leave him holding only Light in a subordinate position. Maybe there was one and that part of the myth was lost or suppressed. Maybe that's why Yelmalio questers have never managed to win enough to earn their Fire back . . . by the time they start the Hill of Gold we know now, Fire has already been abdicated and the god who took it died.


Yelm may also appear at Hill of Gold wearing a mask of darkness left over from the digi[j]elm (the "j" here is sometimes pronounced like Welsh "ll" in the archaic "Llankhor" or honorific truth-rune "y" in "Dayzatar") and take Fire in that form. If so, then that mask was banished when the Empire became Bright and wandered the wastes until reentering the story with Arkat. But that's all deep experimental heroquesting and not even my cult unless for some reason we needed to anoint a legitimate High King of Saird one of these days, give our other brothers their homeland back.

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9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Fire and leave him holding only Light

Who is the earliest culture on record making a hard distinction between "Fire" (lo-) and "Light" (zre-) with "Sun" (el-) as their union? Ralios comes to mind. I wonder if they brought another little sun with them when they came from the West, or took the little suns they found in the highlands and interpreted them on their terms. One sun, one dirty younger brother, one rarefied older brother who is also in secret ways the dispossessed orphan: a gift to the perfect Khordavu.

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20 hours ago, JonL said:

Antirius isn't a perfect match, but in Plantonius's account

That's the problem with in-world sources - they are (often intentionally) unreliable narrators. Makes the mythology more realistic. If a myth or legend doesn't have well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty, it just isn't mythic.

The Dara Happan version of myth and history is more than a little biased, in part perhaps to write out of their prehistory and history the enormous influence of those they now call Horse Barbarians. Even Buserian's sky diagram is obviously the frame of a nomad kert. Claiming that the real Yelm didn't reappear until the Sons of the Sun were expelled is perhaps an expression of a deep seated realization that they aren't quite the legimate heirs of the Empire of the Sun they'd like to be.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not sure whether Shargash wasn't at the Hill of Gold, sharing the ZZ role, or the Orlanth one, when Antirius received one of his wounds.

I've argued this before (relative to Zolan Zubar), but Shargash ~ *Zar-k-az = definitely a Hell divinity, who is associated with fire and necromancy.

Edit: *zre-, 'light'

The parallels in names, portfolio, and outré fearfulness/the "Other" in the pantheon seems awfully similar.

Also, the site where Orlanth and Shargash struggled as Orlanth went towards Ralios on the LB Quest is close to the Hill of Gold.

Edited by jeffjerwin
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1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

I've argued this before (relative to Zolan Zubar), but Shargash ~ *Zar-k-az = definitely a Hell divinity, who is associated with fire and necromancy.

Love it. Now you've got me going back to discover whose kazkurtum Shargash might be or become. Oh yeah, Orlanth.

Does this make the OOO's use of Kitori troops against the Shadzorings the equivalent of a digijelm civil war? OOO as "ultimate authority" over IFWW trolls enforcing the universal missionary agenda against the tribes who considered Peloria "especially good troll hunting" at the Dawn?

These tribes seem cognate with the shadzorings but the demons of Alkoth are denied Uz status in some versions of the story when they kill the missionaries. Maybe if OOO can blur species boundaries in his own person his magic can also remove an ancestral birthright . . . although compare to the ultimate eradication of "trolls and dragonewts" in Peloria as "dark men and snake men" take their place in the world, this may simply be a Dawn Power. Either way, OOO and the incarnate power of ZZ break the shadzorings ("human beings came forth to negotiate and they are afterward called the Alkothings, not shadzorings") and Shargash goes dormant for some time.

 "Zre-." Makes me wonder if the Sky Powers were actively antagonistic to the solar pantheon of Khordavu at some point and needed to be displaced / reimagined. In the West Tolat and Anehilla are twins theoretically coeval with the Plant and Beast runes, children of the archaic Sun and Old Night. Funny how a Tolat ends up in Alkoth to the south of Raibanth and an Anehilla ends up under a dead moon to the north. Sky and Moon against Sun. Good formula to conjure with. When they say Shargash is loyal to Yelm I don't know if I know what that means. But the flood confounds him.

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Fire makes smoke, which is a kind of hot darkness (like, I dare say, ZZ). ZZ is what trolls fear.

Argan Argar is literally surface darkness - shade - cool and welcoming, the opposite/counterpart/twin to ZZ.

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20 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

That's the problem with in-world sources - they are (often intentionally) unreliable narrators. Makes the mythology more realistic. If a myth or legend doesn't have well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty, it just isn't mythic.

So much this.

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On 8/8/2018 at 6:20 PM, Joerg said:

Kargzant is Lightfore, since the Sun Swirl. According to Plentonius, Antirius became the real sun, until his reunion with the rest of Yelm.

No, Lightfore replaces Kargzant in the Sky according to GRoY. The heavens reflecting the triumph of Antirius over the horse barbarians. Note that elsewhere in GRoY Lightfore is described as riding Kargzant, in other words, Antirius conquers the horse-sun god.

""51. Lightfore The bright god rose and went to War against the destructive god Kargzant. At first Lightfore was timed so that he appeared exactly opposite to Kargzant, so that one rose when the other set. But slowly Lightfore drew Kargzant to him, so that his erratic movements had to come to time with Lightfore’s. Thus, in 111,111 Kargzant disappeared as a separate entity, chained to be Lightfore’s slave."

Of course, this may just be another explanation for the strange movement of Lightfore (one appeared when the other set).

I think it's pretty clear that Elmal at least becomes Lightfore/Antirius at some point. I think the Elmal myth, 'Elmal Guards the Stead' that provides the explanation for Lightfore's movement across the sky is key here. It is very possible though that aspects of the Elmal cult, the Anatyr cult which has him a ruler, his association as a justice bringer, even perhaps his role as a horse rider (over Beren or Ulanin) may come with DH culture, and represent some of the parts of that culture that get welded onto Elmal.

But sure, Kargzant may well be Lightfore too. Many Little Suns.

Lightfore seems to be seen as part of the sun, the sun in the darkness, and thus sometimes has been the only sun.

DH: "See that stare Lighfore, he is Antirius, who held the throne to prepare for Yelm's return"

H: "Oh we call that star Elmal one of our lights in the darkness"

DH: "Did he provide protection in the darkness, whilst his lord was in the underworld too?"

H: "Of course he must have done, his lord would have been Orlanth though. But hey, who would have been king with Orlanth gone. Ah, this must be a secret we don't know, about how Elmal was crowned and acted as Orlanth's steward. Antirius, we might say Anatyr in our tongue, must be the part of Elmal that ruled".

DH: "And did he conquer the horse nomads too?"

H: "You know, I bet he did conquer the horse."

...

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See also, from GRoY

"The planet Lightfore has always held some enigma. Its Gloranthan name is always a title, like Lightfore, and its secret name remains a secret (if it was ever known or agreed upon!) Furthermore, the story of the Young God may b etold about other deities as well.... Lightfore is now recognized by the Dara Happans to be Antirius, the “Little Sun” which remained in the darkness. They remind us that Yelm’s own consciousness was in Antirius, as well as in Bijiif, the Descender. As Bijiif descended into Hell, Antirius also descended into the Land of the Dead. These are, they say, both elements of the same Yelmic secrets."

So Lightfore is definitely 'Many Suns',  but particularly the sun in the darkness, so a GL would probably identity Elmal, Kargzant, Yelmalio, and Antirius as Lightfore.

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3 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

No, Lightfore replaces Kargzant in the Sky according to GRoY. The heavens reflecting the triumph of Antirius over the horse barbarians. Note that elsewhere in GRoY Lightfore is described as riding Kargzant, in other words, Antirius conquers the horse-sun god.

Which is of course written by the Dara Happans, even though ruled by the Jenarong dynasty at the time that happened.

 

3 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

""51. Lightfore The bright god rose and went to War against the destructive god Kargzant. At first Lightfore was timed so that he appeared exactly opposite to Kargzant, so that one rose when the other set. But slowly Lightfore drew Kargzant to him, so that his erratic movements had to come to time with Lightfore’s. Thus, in 111,111 Kargzant disappeared as a separate entity, chained to be Lightfore’s slave."

"A new light rose from the east and went to war against mighty Kargzant, but Kargzant lassoed him in and drew him ever closer to himself, until his light eclipsed the newcomer, and Kargzant could return to the paths of the sun through the sky." Possibly bearing the head of the overcome foe on his saddle/rim of his chariot.

The fact is that planet 51 and the body of Kargzant joined, after attracting one another for some time, and then becoming indistinguishable.

Compare the annihilation of the northeastern Planetary son in the Copper Tablets in Glorious ReAscent and in Heortling Mythology.

GRoY:

Quote

Makestina rushes towards with the news Yelm, and in his haste abandons all formality and is so embarrassed that he gives himself up, and is absorbed entirely by his Father.

HotHP:

Quote

Makestina rushes towards Yelm with the news, and the Emperor is so angered he devours his son.

The active role changes when the two bodies join.

3 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

I think it's pretty clear that Elmal at least becomes Lightfore/Antirius at some point. I think the Elmal myth, 'Elmal Guards the Stead' that provides the explanation for Lightfore's movement across the sky is key here. It is very possible though that aspects of the Elmal cult, the Anatyr cult which has him a ruler, his association as a justice bringer, even perhaps his role as a horse rider (over Beren or Ulanin) may come with DH culture, and represent some of the parts of that culture that get welded onto Elmal.

Elmal appears to share the Reladivus origin with Kargzant. He is the spear warrior, and the horse archer - Hastatus and Golden Bow functions.

To the Orlanthi, he (and/or Beren) is the god of the Foreigner Wedding. Redaylde is Vingkot's daughter, Redalda is explicitely Orlanth's horse loving daughter (and not some parthenogenetic/Form Rune animal daughter of Ernalda like Uralda, Entra or Nevala).

Absorbing a significant part of the Hyalorings as the Berennethtelli changes Orlanth's stead. Gustbran and his lesser brothers belong to Ernalda's household, which ensures them a place in the village, but they aren't companions of Orlanth.

 

Anatyr the chief is at least a parallel to Antirius - justice-dealing chief in the (Underworld? Exile?) absence of the Great Chief. If Anatyr already steps in during Orlanth's exile, this aspect of Elmal might predate the first appearance of Antirius, and the Dara Happan manifestation might have followed the Hyaloring/Orlanthi precedent.

I do wonder about Elempur, the city of Golden Bow. This southernmost of the Septopolis fell to the onslaught of the Ram People, which may have been the sons of Vingkot on their joint raid, or which may have been something else. (There is no Vingkotling memory of an iron ram, unless Janard Lastralgor bore such a helmet or so...) 

Elem sounds like El(e)malus (IIRC this was the spelling in an older edition of GRoY).

 

 

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Anatyr the chief is at least a parallel to Antirius - justice-dealing chief in the (Underworld? Exile?) absence of the Great Chief. If Anatyr already steps in during Orlanth's exile, this aspect of Elmal might predate the first appearance of Antirius, and the Dara Happan manifestation might have followed the Hyaloring/Orlanthi precedent.

Antirius manifesting as the Sun of the Dome beneath the glacier is concurrent with the Storm-Age/Lesser-Darkness Hyalorings in Six Ages migrating southward with their independent Elmal. They rode out of Nivorah rather than heed the call to shelter within the dome. Elmal's regency of the Storm Tribe during the Lightbringers' Quest comes within the depths of the Great Darkness, so later than Antirius - to the extent that God Time events can be looked at sequentially.

Edited by JonL
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2 hours ago, JonL said:

Antirius manifesting as the Sun of the Dome beneath the glacier is concurrent with the Storm-Age/Lesser-Darkness Hyalorings in Six Ages migrating southward with their independent Elmal.

Yes, you said it - their independent Elmal. According to GRoY, Antirius manifested the moment Yelm disintegrated from grief when Orlanth slew the Emperor (Murharzarm, the son of Yelm, possibly only a mortal demigod).

Personally, I have my doubts about that version of re-written myth. I think that it was Brightface (the usurper who dethroned the White Queen early in the Golden Age) who was killed by Orlanth, the original sun god of the gazzam people who built the first ziggurats including the Footstool, as depicted on the Copper Tablets (although the inverted Ziggurat is placed too far south to match the one in Spol). IMO it is possible that Yelm only "Re"-Ascended when the great-grandson of Avivorus performed the Ten Tests and ended the Jenarong dynasty, and then had so much brilliance that the name entered both the heirs of Jenarong in Pent, the Bright Empire composite  myth of the Gods War and the God Learner monomyth. But then either Yelm or Murharzarm may translate as Brightface.

2 hours ago, JonL said:

They rode out of Nivorah rather than heed the call to shelter within the dome. Elmal's regency of the Storm Tribe during the Lightbringers' Quest comes within the depths of the Great Darkness, so later than Antirius - to the extent that Got Time events can be looked at sequentially.

I tend to link the Elempur incident to the four sons of Vingkot, and the bad performance at Nivorah to Janard Lastralgor's inglorious end. That, or a repeat performance doing the Ram People stuff all over again.

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Here is the updated Mythology section of the Yelmalio cult:

BEFORE TIME

Yelmalio was born when Yelm was murdered by Orlanth, as a blindingly bright glare of magnificence which radiated from Yelm like light from the sun. He became known as the Little Sun or “Yelmalio”, although he has been given many other names and titles. 

Confronted by a broken world, Yelmalio remained true, though it cost him dearly to do so. During the early wars in which mortals supported their gods, Yelmalio led his people from the warm lowlands into the cold hills, carrying high the magic and power of his father. Yelmalio fought against the growing Darkness; he aided many so that they might survive the Gods War.

At the Hill of Gold, Yelmalio was disarmed by Orlanth, and then he was ambushed by Zorak Zoran, who stole his fire powers. The Cold Sun fell and bled out his life-giving heat. His favored weapons of bow and sword fell also and were absorbed into the knowledge of the whole world.

Wounded, robbed, and hounded from place to place, Yelmalio carried the spark of life throughout the Darkness. Frozen, limping through the leafless forests, the glow of Yelmalio gave hope to the elves and humans who clung to the light. Yelmalio fought fiercely in the Great Darkness, and even aided Orlanth, who grudgingly settled their feud. When Orlanth departed on his Lightbringers’ Quest, Yelmalio defended his people as well.

Yelmalio’s wounds did not deter his struggle. He joined with the High King Elf and others to fight against the relentless approach of chaos. He became the Last Light, the strongest god of light in the Great Darkness. He survived the Great Darkness, and the sky overhead was sometimes a distant grey color, and then the stars reappeared. Yelmalio grew stronger and became larger, and the survivors crept out of hiding to offer thanks. 

Yelmalio greeted the rise of his father, the Sun god Yelm, at the Dawn. Since that time, Yelmalio has lived in the mountains and hills, and even the staunchest Orlanth worshipper admits the presence of the Son of the Sun. Yelmalio provides his light even when and where Yelm’s Sun Disk is absent.

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