Elmal Yelmalio thing

[Joerg]

19 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

A combination of the Second Age name for the god, and local usage,

Tharkantus + Yamsur + ?

19 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

as whilst it would probably be denied, there was a significant Nomad influence during the Solitude of Testing.

All true - there was a Nomad influence. There is likely to have been a Teshnan influence, from the 1250 settlements in the Corflu/Grantlands area.

And there was a sizable contingent of Vanntar Sun Domers coming to Sun County, establishing themselves as counts, and telling the templars how to call the deity.

19 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

An outlander travels through and tells you what you should call your god, whom your ancestors have been worshipping for centuries? They'd either be laughed at, or suffer a suitable punishment. Few Counts seem to have had a sense of humor.

With "Monrogh's folk" I mean the half-company of Templars (or more) sent by Monrogh from Vanntar to Prax, ending the Solitude of Testing by installing a new regime, and not the initial passage of young Tarkalor and companions on their ways to and from Teshnos.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

And there was a sizable contingent of Vanntar Sun Domers coming to Sun County, establishing themselves as counts, and telling the templars how to call the deity.

With "Monrogh's folk" I mean the half-company of Templars (or more) sent by Monrogh from Vanntar to Prax, ending the Solitude of Testing by installing a new regime, and not the initial passage of young Tarkalor and companions on their ways to and from Teshnos.

Curiously not mentioned in Sun County at all. The Solitude of Testing ended with the arrival of Dorasar in 1575 (1550 in more recent chronologies)... yes I know it's claimed that Monrogh sent the first Varthanis, but Monrogh only became Count of Vanntar in 1579, so it would be a mite tricky for him to have sent Templars into Prax any earlier from there as he had no Sun Dome Temple to send them from... His claims of refounding the Yelmalio cult only apply to Sartar, as there were active temples in southern Peloria and in Prax before he was born.

The Teshnos influence was limited to a very short-lived colony in the 13th century, on the map its size seems to denote the search area for the Red Sword, not its zone of control. There's no apparent Teshnan influence in the Praxian Sun Dome.

Edited August 22, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Totally non-canonical, but here's a possible list of the different names of Yelmalio and Orlanth. Neither deity has a huge organized monolithic cult, and traditions and practices probably vary to a greater or lesser degree. So as a bit of fun...

West King Wind seems to be the same god who the Grazelanders call Wingkoalad, given the Dara Happan on the Pentan's flags in Prince of Sartar

Other names for Orlanth include Karborn, Father of Bears in Sylila (Sartar Companion 279), in Ralios there was Humat (Guide 373) and Erulat (Safelster in the First Age). There's also an old post of Jeff's in the mailing list containing some Talastari names here. Not sure on its current status. (Although the Ernaldan names are still used in SKoH.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Tindalos

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is likely to have been a Teshnan influence, from the 1250 settlements in the Corflu/Grantlands area

I always liked the suggestion that they brought hazia with them along with a foundation of miscellaneous Somash syncretisms that no longer really fit into the Monrogh timeline we have now. When do the towers start being repurposed for "retirement?" 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Curiously not mentioned in Sun County at all. The Solitude of Testing ended with the arrival of Dorasar in 1575 (1550 in more recent chronologies)...

 

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

yes I know it's claimed that Monrogh sent the first Varthanis, but Monrogh only became Count of Vanntar in 1579, so it would be a mite tricky for him to have sent Templars into Prax any earlier from there as he had no Sun Dome Temple to send them from... His claims of refounding the Yelmalio cult only apply to Sartar, as there were active temples in southern Peloria and in Prax before he was born.

Tarkalor fought his war against the Kitori when his father Saronil was still alive or shortly after, and he established Monrogh and the Yelmalians in Vanntar already back then. The temple appears to have been re-established then, likely with Monogh as leader, but the recognition as a separate political entitiy appears to have been postponed to Tarkalor becoming ruler of Sartar.

P.246 of the Guide states that 

Quote

the Sartarite prince Tarkalor Trollkiller defeated the Kitori in 1560 and reestablished the Volsaxing kingdom.

 

but that doesn't mean that this war may not have been started earlier with the Elmali exodus claiming Vanntar earlier. The Kitori were a powerful and tenacious tribe, and liberating the territory for good is likely to have taken more than a single year's campaign. It isn't clear whether Belintar would have just sat by to see his Kitori allies pushed out of the Volsaxi lands formally inside the Holy Country (according to the Centaur's Cross treaty), and already the conquest of Vanntar may have seen Holy Country interference against Monrogh.

Vanntar wasn't part of Sartar when Tarkalor and his allies (Monrogh, the Volsaxi) chased out (or enslaved) the Kitori. It is possible that Tarkalor had to become King of Dragon Pass to be entitled to give away the title of that land.

There is a chance that the establishment of Monrogh in Vanntar may have been a result of Sarotar's death in Nochet, which appears to have happened at the time when Tarkalor and Monrogh were in Teshnos. The list of governor-kings of Heortland (History of the Heortling Peoples p.94) has Verenama (from Esrolia) until 1553, probably with ties to House Norinel, which would have made her a target for the vengeance of the grandsons of Sartar while Saronil was paralyzed in grief (and then died rescuing Minara from dwarves - possibly also tied to this Cold War conflict with Esrolia). There are quite a few governor kings in subsequent years, with a lot of trouble around 1571-72.

And yes, the Red Emperor had no such qualms granting Black Horse Country to Ethilrist. This may be a significant difference between Lunar imperial machinations and House Sartar honesty.

 

 

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Teshnos influence was limited to a very short-lived colony in the 13th century, on the map its size seems to denote the search area for the Red Sword, not its zone of control. There's no apparent Teshnan influence in the Praxian Sun Dome.

We don't have a date for the end of the colony, only for the rough time of its establishment (which appears to coincide roughly with the expulsion f the Pure Horse People after Alavan Argay). While there are no hints of direct contact between Pure Horse folk and the Teshnans, the Teshnan intrusion into the Solar magics of Prax may have weakened the sun magics of the horse folk. Sun priests may even have been allies of the Praxians at Alavan Argay.

[jeffjerwin]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

but that doesn't mean that this war may not have been started earlier with the Elmali exodus claiming Vanntar earlier. The Kitori were a powerful and tenacious tribe, and liberating the territory for good is likely to have taken more than a single year's campaign. It isn't clear whether Belintar would have just sat by to see his Kitori allies pushed out of the Volsaxi lands formally inside the Holy Country (according to the Centaur's Cross treaty), and already the conquest of Vanntar may have seen Holy Country interference against Monrogh.

Vanntar wasn't part of Sartar when Tarkalor and his allies (Monrogh, the Volsaxi) chased out (or enslaved) the Kitori. It is possible that Tarkalor had to become King of Dragon Pass to be entitled to give away the title of that land.

There is a chance that the establishment of Monrogh in Vanntar may have been a result of Sarotar's death in Nochet, which appears to have happened at the time when Tarkalor and Monrogh were in Teshnos. The list of governor-kings of Heortland (History of the Heortling Peoples p.94) has Verenama (from Esrolia) until 1553, probably with ties to House Norinel, which would have made her a target for the vengeance of the grandsons of Sartar while Saronil was paralyzed in grief (and then died rescuing Minara from dwarves - possibly also tied to this Cold War conflict with Esrolia). There are quite a few governor kings in subsequent years, with a lot of trouble around 1571-72.

 

It's interesting that Belintar did not take more forceful action - his relationship, of course, with Sartar was complex. He essentially is the bogeyman for the traditionalist clans who settled the Quivin mountains, but it was partly with his support that Sartar resisted the Lunar Empire in the coming decades.

A wild surmise: Belintar partially mastered the Light/Sky rune [in the form of Veskarthan/Caladra & Aurelion's fire), but perhaps he could have extended his power over the region, if Vanntar could be absorbed into a Greater Holy Country. Many of the other cultic sites in the region see similar meddling where eventually a God-king emerges from their elites.

Edited August 23, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Sir_Godspeed]

All of this makes me wonder - if Elmal is only Lightfore/The Yellow Planet/Little Sun - what is the Orlanthi god of the ACTUAL sun? Maybe I've read things incorrectly, but I've never gotten the impression that the Orlanthi expressly associate the Bad Emperor with the glowing orb in the sky, as it were, rather focusing on Yelm's tyrannical/despotic aspects than on his solar ones. Of course, I might be way off.

It really is interesting seeing home much of the Monomyth was worked out long before the God Learners, especially in the central Genertelan area, where Pelorian and Theyalan cultures engaged in a vigorous cultural exchange only barely a century after Time (not to mention before).

Edited August 23, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Tindalos]

According to the Guide to Glorantha and the Glorantha Sourcebook, the Orlanthi god of the Sun Disk is Elmal.

He may be a Little Sun, but he's still associated with the sun itself.

[David Scott]

36 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

what is the Orlanth god of the ACTUAL sun? 

It’s Yelm. Orlanth killed him and then went on a quest to fix what he’d done and bring him back. Now he spends his time half in the underworld and half in the sky. However, no Orlanthi worships him or receives magic from him, they all acknowledge he’s part of their mythology. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by David Scott

[daskindt]

Elmal is the sun.

Yelmalio is what the Orlanthi call Lightfore.

According to all the sources I can find.

I’m still unclear why the Heortlings would accept the view that Yelmalio is the true god behind the Elmal “mask.”

Elmal’s myths already encompass a former member of the Sky Tribe learning better and become a member of the Storm Tribe. Other than Elmali that embrace the Yelmalio myths because they’re too proud to remain loyal to Orlanth, I don’t see what any Heortling would get out of Yelmalio that Elmal doesn’t provide in a superior mythological context.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, daskindt said:

Elmal is the sun.

Yelmalio is what the Orlanthi call Lightfore.

According to all the sources I can find.

You are correct that's what the Guide and Sourcebook say.

Quote

I’m still unclear why the Heortlings would accept the view that Yelmalio is the true god behind the Elmal “mask.”

And overlook that Elmal is Yelm

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by David Scott

[jeffjerwin]

Don't forget that Orlanth extended the hand of friendship toward Yelm, the bad emperor, because, in part, Yelm's son/soul fragment befriended him and passed his test. Orlanth's action was still chancy, but he sees the kinship between Elmal, the 'most loyal thane' to whom he entrusted his whole surviving people when he went into the land of the dead, and his father, the god he murdered.

The sun above is not the bad emperor anymore: he is Big Elmal, the emperor who is capable of forgiveness and whose son speaks for him.

Edited August 23, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[JonL]

3 hours ago, daskindt said:

I’m still unclear why the Heortlings would accept the view that Yelmalio is the true god behind the Elmal “mask.”

For any of the Elmali who were magically supporting Monrogh's heroquest, his "discovery" became their reality as well. That's honestly the only reason I can see for so many people who had dedicated their lives to protecting their communities up to that point to abandon that to pick up and move to a Sun Dome.

[jeffjerwin]

6 minutes ago, JonL said:

For any of the Elmali who were magically supporting Monrogh's heroquest, his "discovery" became their reality as well. That's honestly the only reason I can see for so many people who had dedicated their lives to protecting their communities up to that point to abandon that to pick up and move to a Sun Dome.

Elmal would seem to typify a 'conservative' strand in Heortling culture. It's my belief that when Sartar and his followers made so many changes, it shook the 'arch-conservative' nature of the Quivin tribes - they fled Heortland/Hendrikiland after all to avoid profound changes and the cosmopolitan influence of Belintar - and the Emlali found themselves facing an existential crisis: their defensive and practical obligations were eroded by Sartar's new sheriffs and the peace he established, as well as his Larnsting nature - quite opposite to their fixed and circular path. So the innovation of Yelmalio is to them a 'greater tradition' or 'the prisca theologia' - they fall back on an imagined order which 'returned them to purity'. It is this tendency that we see with historical conservative movements: a conservativism that becomes so defiant that it turns into a new, radical thing. Compare the Catholic League during the French Wars of Religion, or the reactionary response to modernism becoming Fascism.

Retrenchment is a particularly conservative/traditionist response, often more instinctual than rational, that results in something unrecognizable. The Elmal > Yelmalio shift is a very good example of this. Monrogh's insistence that this was the 'true, original, way' (we know it was not) allowed people to 'rebel' while still appealing to authority and the Elmali instinct to preserve and repair.

[M Helsdon]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Vanntar wasn't part of Sartar when Tarkalor and his allies (Monrogh, the Volsaxi) chased out (or enslaved) the Kitori. It is possible that Tarkalor had to become King of Dragon Pass to be entitled to give away the title of that land.

All pretty irrelevant, as the Templars revived sarissa-based phalanxes long before Monrogh was born. A Sartar-driven renaissance in Sun County seems unnecessary.

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

We don't have a date for the end of the colony, only for the rough time of its establishment (which appears to coincide roughly with the expulsion f the Pure Horse People after Alavan Argay). While there are no hints of direct contact between Pure Horse folk and the Teshnans, the Teshnan intrusion into the Solar magics of Prax may have weakened the sun magics of the horse folk. Sun priests may even have been allies of the Praxians at Alavan Argay.

Just that it only lasted a few generations. It's remains are lost somewhere in or near the Zola Fel  delta.

Given that the names were intended, as stated, to be a bit of fun, it seems to have triggered unnecessary pedantry (I'm sure the Sun Domers have a particularly painful punishment for that...)

[M Helsdon]

19 hours ago, Tindalos said:

West King Wind seems to be the same god who the Grazelanders call Wingkoalad, given the Dara Happan on the Pentan's flags in Prince of Sartar

Other names for Orlanth include Karborn, Father of Bears in Sylila (Sartar Companion 279), in Ralios there was Humat (Guide 373) and Erulat (Safelster in the First Age). There's also an old post of Jeff's in the mailing list containing some Talastari names here. Not sure on its current status. (Although the Ernaldan names are still used in SKoH.

Interesting, thank you.

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The sun above is not the bad emperor anymore: he is Big Elmal, the emperor who is capable of forgiveness and whose son speaks for him.

It was always my impression that the Orlanthi didn't really view Yelm first and foremost as a sun deity, but as constriction on the freedom of Orlanth, hence why they see Elmal as the sun. Similarly, it was always my impression that the DHs viewed Orlanth not necessarily first and foremost as the storm and wind, but most importantly as a symbol of the disruption of proper social and natural order, hence why they associate the Middle Air more with Entekos (and later with Sedenya - unless Entekos was only really important in Pelanda).

Anyway, my point is more that it seems, from the material I've read at least, that it's the mythological narrative role that supersedes the elemental association in the mind of each "opposing" pantheon. That is, of course, assuming that the Bad Emperor and Rebellus Terminus can really be said to be Yelm and Orlanth to begin with - and that this isn't a First Age Council/Nysalorean innovation in order to "harmonize" the World Council's disparate (and probably conflicting) mythologies. I assume we will never know.

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

All pretty irrelevant, as the Templars revived sarissa-based phalanxes long before Monrogh was born. A Sartar-driven renaissance in Sun County seems unnecessary.

You know, I said so much not that long ago when discussing how I would equip Praxian Sun Domers with cultural skills.

There I argued for the Solitude of Testing folk to have a greater influence on what the Praxian Sun Dome skills and behavior would be. Yet I got pointed to a population speaking Heortlander rather than Old Pavic, the same cultural skills as the Sartarites, and numerous other strong indications that Sun County and Sun Dome County have pretty much a cultural union.

 

49 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Just that it only lasted a few generations. It's remains are lost somewhere in or near the Zola Fel  delta.

A few generations (say five or six) is a bit over a century in my reckoning. In a rather hostile environment like the Grantlands, that's quite an accomplishment which would require a sufficiently large population to get to that continuity, a few hundred at least, especially if those settlers obeyed Teshnan caste laws which require specialist populations of several families in order to reach the next generations at all.

Selenteen would have been thwarted by the Deathline to follow Avalor's journey to Fronela (but would have been in time to predate the Syndics' Ban from preventing him entering Loskalm).

The population isn't shown separately from Sheng's empire in the historical map on p.142, but neither are Sun County or Teshnos, so we cannot say for sure that Selenteen's settlers had disappeared around 1450.

In 1489 Sartar mediated peace between the Pol Joni and the Praxians, and that led to the establishment of the City of Thieves at Badside of Pavis. I don't know whether that event already may be seen as the end of the Solitude of Testing, or whether it was Dorasar arriving (in 1575, according to Pavis and Big Rubble, ) with presents, offers, and an alliance to clear the valley of nomads, although the same source has Varthanis as Count of Sun County from 1567.

It is possible that the pygmy counts forcibly moved a thriving Teshnan community to Sun County, or that some of the outlander counts came from there.

The Sarissa training returned already under Narokoris the Wise and didn't need Varthanis. Narokoris likely began his reign under the envelope of the Seleric Empire.

49 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Given that the names were intended, as stated, to be a bit of fun, it seems to have triggered unnecessary pedantry (I'm sure the Sun Domers have a particularly painful punishment for that...)

Are you referring to the Dallas references in Sun County here? Or did I miss jokes inherent in names like Varthanis or Selenteen?

Lese majesty probably means you get to fight alongside unlucky visiting Lightbringers in that Strikes of Anger heroquest.

[M Helsdon]

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There I argued for the Solitude of Testing folk to have a greater influence on what the Praxian Sun Dome skills and behavior would be. Yet I got pointed to a population speaking Heortlander rather than Old Pavic, the same cultural skills as the Sartarites, and numerous other strong indications that Sun County and Sun Dome County have pretty much a cultural union.

RuneQuest Glorantha:

Sun Dome Temple Culture/Religion: Heortling/Yelmalio (Sartar)

Sun County Culture/Religion: Old Pavic/Yelmalio (Prax)

Compare with:

Pavis Culture/Religion: Heortling/Orlanthi

[Brootse]

So were the original mercenaries who settled in the Zola Fel valley Elmal worshippers, whose descendants converted to Yelmalio worshipping about two generations ago? And if so, were the Praxian nomad counts Elmal worshippers?

Or were the mercenaries worshipping Yelmalio, and their descendants converted two generations ago to a new Monroghian version of Yelmalio?

Are the Praxian nomads who worship Yelmalio recent converts of the Monroghian version, or do they follow some other version?

Does Monrogh Lantern's name have anything to do with Monroe lanterns?

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Brootse said:

So were the original mercenaries who settled in the Zola Fel valley Elmal worshippers, whose descendants converted to Yelmalio worshipping about two generations ago? And if so, were the Praxian nomad counts Elmal worshippers?

Both the worshippers of a Second Age Yelmalio.

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Both the worshippers of a Second Age Yelmalio.

Thanks.

[Ian Cooper]

On 8/23/2018 at 2:45 PM, David Scott said:

You are correct that's what the Guide and Sourcebook say.

And overlook that Elmal is Yelm

 

I think that is a mistake, because all the myths of Elmal we have joining the Storm Tribe suggest he was an exile from the Emperor's lands and just a thane. I think that he was a sun, but a sun in the Darkness, not a sun after the Dawn. Indeed, Orlanth returns from the Underworld with a torch, which is implicitly the sun, that Elmal bears aloft. So Elmal is not the sun at the Dawn. Given hints like the myth of Elmal Guards the Stead, he seems to be another name for Lightfore the planet that is also associated with Antirius, Yelmalio, and probably Kargzant the part of Yelm that did not enter the underworld (that part that did is Bijif).

So that is why a GL can say Antirius, Yelmalio, Kargzant and Elmal are the same god, because they are Lightfore.

So there is an ur-god somewhere here that is a deity of the planet Lightfore which appears after Orlanth kills Yelm, and which does not die in the Great Darkness.

Of course, when Yelm returns you could argue that all the gods that are Lightfore become part of Yelm again i.e. Bijif is re-united with Antirius. Given there are two entities in the sky I think that is complicated, which may imply that the sun at the Dawn is not the same Sun that Orlanth killed.

You could also argue that all these gods are the Sun, because they were part of the Sun before Orlanth killed the Sun. So Elmal is a part of the Sun, as is Yelmalio. Interestingly, Orlanth created them by killing Yelm.

But whilst Elmal may have been Yelm (as was Antirius and Yelmalio) he doesn't seem to have been the Sun since Orlanth killed Yelm.

Perhaps what is more in dispute is the extent to which Yelmalio has replaced Elmal and the relations between the two cults. Sartar Kingdom of Heroes makes it pretty clear that the Elmal cult is hostile to the Yelmalio cult: "The Sun priests of Elmal have a terrible rivalry with the cult of Yelmalio that has seized many of Elmal’s holy places.", and "Elmal’s priests
teach that internal dissent is the work of the Teller of Lies, criticizing the Yelmalio cult as an example of just such a deception". So I think the two cults do not have friendly relations. As to extent, well there are 1K Elmali and 3K Yelmalio worshipers in Sartar, but with many of the latter at the Sun Dome Temple, neither are dominant in the clans, with the Elmali strongest in two clans (Toena and Enhyli) and probably scattered bloodlines in half-a-dozen others like the Dolutha.

But as to elsewhere? I suspect Yelmalio among Pelorian Orlanthi, Elmal among Manirian Orlanthi and maybe an entirely different name for the god in Ralios or Umathela

.

 

 

[Ian Cooper]

IMO this seems to be the flow

The Emperor

== Orlanth kills the Emperor

The Emperor splits => Bijif - Anitirus

Bijif, Lord of the Underworld

Antirius, Little Sun, Light in the Darkness

== Orlanth resurrects Bijif

Bijif returns as Yelm

Anitirus wanders the night sky as Lightfore

-----------------------------------------

I only use Yelm to denote the Sun post the Dawn to simplify. I'm not implying what the Sun was called in the Golden Age.

Antirius == Kargzant, Yelmalio, Elmal

So Kargzant, Yelmalio and Elmal are the part of the Sun that remains in the Sky after Orlanth kills Yelm. But they are not the Sun after the Dawn, that is Yelm.

So the statement Elmal is the Sun and Elmal is not Yelm is true, if confusing. Because really Elmal is the part of the Sun that remained after Orlanth killed the Emperor, but not the Sun that rose at the Dawn.

So it is easier to say Elmal is Lightfore.

 

 

 

 

 

[daskindt]

This is one of the reasons I’m confused. We’re explicitly told that the Heortling Orlanthi associate Elmal with the sun. We’re also told that they specifically call Lightfore Yelmalio.

As to who still worships Elmal, as his mythology is rooted firmly in the Heortling traditions, wouldn’t his cult still exist in Heortland? As Monrough was a Sartarite Elmali, I would expect Sartar was most dramatically affected by his Yelmalio revelations. I would expect that outside of Sartar, it has been a much slower process for Elmali to convert to the new Yelmalio cult. What am I missing?