Elmal Yelmalio thing

[davecake]

On 22/02/2018 at 9:17 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Does either have a stronger myth cycle, something that should also be relevant?

I think it’s the wrong take. Yelmalios myth cycle is weaker - he gets kicked around, loses his Fire powers. 

But the path the two cults have taken within history is very different. Elmal just seems to mostly be the vehicle for Orlanthi assimilation of the remnants of the Hyalorings. It’s never been powerful or dominant since the Dawn, and seems destined to continue to be nothing but a minority practice among a few clans here and there. 

Yelmalio, on the other hand, is a far more complex cult historically. It’s the heir to traditions including a powerful fusing of mystic and theist ways, one of the few traditions humans share with elves, being a major imperial war god in the first and second ages, and being the ruling god of its own military tradition. It’s got hybrid vigour and a rich range of knowledge. And it’s now the default cult to bridge between Heortling culture and the Power of Dara Happa. And it’s recently the home of the Many Suns exploratory creative heroquesting tradition. 

So I think to understand the strength of Yelmalio, you have to look more at history than myth. Myth gave Elmal a stronger mythic base - Fire powers, leadership myths, a magical connection to horses that is very deep. And as a result, they have better base magic. But history gave Yelmalio independence, and an interesting broad range of  not just magic, but mundane, abilities, and a lot of powerful and interesting connections both magical (not just Sunspear, but elf friendship, other solar connections, etc) and mundane (multiple different well developed combat traditions used to working together in close cooperation, geography, hawks). 

The key to comparing the cults isn’t really to compare their magic to each other. The key is that Elmal’s magic will always be judged as not as as good as Orlanth. But Yelmalios magic is the core of the whole Sun Dome society, and so it’s the magic the best soldiers have used for centuries - so what if it’s not the best magic for magicians? 

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I think it’s the wrong take. Yelmalios myth cycle is weaker - he gets kicked around, loses his Fire powers. 

It's probably just a matter of perspective, but I think the Hill of Gold is a pretty strong myth - not for pure war power, of course, but the point of it is survival and maintenance of purity, which isn't to be scoffed at either. I think it's safe to say that this is part of the way the cult keeps bouncing back from seeming extinction. 

I agree that Yelmalio has a deeper tradition and 'theology', as well as being more fundamentally ingrained in its own society.

[JonL]

So, how about that Six Ages?

How does all this look different having seen Elmal through the Hyaloring lens - particularly the Nyalda courtship myth with Little Yelm wanting to sequester her?

[daskindt]

On 7/5/2018 at 11:56 AM, JonL said:

So, how about that Six Ages?

How does all this look different having seen Elmal through the Hyaloring lens - particularly the Nyalda courtship myth with Little Yelm wanting to sequester her?

I really need to play more 6 Ages. I’m very curious to see how it expands the Elmal mythology.

That said, I think I hate the perspective of the cult of Yelmalio being the accurate take on Elmal-Yelmalio. I can accept that those that have embraced Yelmalio think that Elmal is just a mask for Yelmalio. But I also think that those that have remained devoted to Elmal absolutely believe that the Yelmalio cult represents a hostile foreign god that has betrayed and corrupted Orlanthi beliefs and customs.

 

[M Helsdon]

33 minutes ago, daskindt said:

I can accept that those that have embraced Yelmalio think that Elmal is just a mask for Yelmalio.

They are both masks...

[daskindt]

53 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

They are both masks...

From someone’s perspective. Certainly.

[JonL]

I especially like the Nyaldan tale showing Little Yelm as an unsuitable suitor specifically referencing the way that the Sun Domers cloister women. 

That may be the thing that bugs me the most about the idea of mass Elmali conversion to Yelmalio. Some dudes will embrace mystically austere barracks lifestyle, sure, but you gotta figure that a lot of Third Age Dragon Pass Elmali are married to Redalda followers - for whom becoming cloistered full-time mothers/gardeners would be anethema.

[Tindalos]

Well, while there are more Yelmalians than Elmali in Sartar (SKoH 107/113), this is influenced a great deal by the Sun Dome County, which accounts for 2000 initiates by itself. (ibid 254) This leaves the 1000 remaining in Aldur-Chur roughly balanced by the 1000 Elmali in Runegate and the Aranwyth Tribe.

Given the shift from standard Sartarite natures in Sun Dome County, I feel counting them can be somewhat like saying the main spirit cult of the Sartarites is Telmor due to there being more Telmori than Kolatings and the Telmori technically being a part of the Kingdom of Sartar.

[JonL]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Well, while there are more Yelmalians than Elmali in Sartar (SKoH 107/113), this is influenced a great deal by the Sun Dome County, which accounts for 2000 initiates by itself. (ibid 254) This leaves the 1000 remaining in Aldur-Chur roughly balanced by the 1000 Elmali in Runegate and the Aranwyth Tribe. 

Given the shift from standard Sartarite natures in Sun Dome County, I feel counting them can be somewhat like saying the main spirit cult of the Sartarites is Telmor due to there being more Telmori than Kolatings and the Telmori technically being a part of the Kingdom of Sartar.

I also figure that while Monrogh's followers magically supporting his HeroQuest formed a core of Elmali converts by default as new truth he returned with became their new reality as well thanks to their connection to his quest, many of the later initiates will have come from free men around Vaantar who are drawn to the Sun Dome as a bulwark against the Kitori & Uz in northern Kethalia. 

 

Similarly, Alda-Chur is adjacent to traditional Yelmalion territories like Vanch & Saird, and had already begun to worship Elmal as the Golden Spearman before it became part of Sartar. When the Lunars tried to peel it off by establishing that the Golden Spearman was the son of Yelm, it made total sense for Tarkalor to send in Monrogh to tell them, "...and that particular son is Yelmalio - who is totally not a subject of the Emperor of Dara Happa."

I expect that the Sun Dome Templars in modern Sartar still get a steady trickle of Elmali converts who wish to turn their backs on their previous way of life for whatever reason ("one in seven..."), but I doubt that's the bulk of their initiands now,  any more than it is for the Sun Domes outside of Sartar.

Edited July 11, 2018 by JonL

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, daskindt said:

From someone’s perspective. Certainly.

from within Yelmalio as well, Rurik Runespear himself has had the Vision of the Many Suns (11L p159), along with Monrogh Lantern:

Quote

Conflict and turmoil seemed inevitable until Monrogh the Founder experienced the Vision of the Many Suns; that the many sun deities were but masks of Yelm and Yelmalio. Monrogh realized Elmal was not Yelm, but a mask of Yelmalio the Little Sun.

 

[Jeff]

I don't think "converting" is the best way to think of this. The Hendrikings had a solar god who defending the cosmos after Orlanth and the other gods departed. He was always pretty minor and when the Hendrikings resettled Dragon Pass, they came into contact with the rich and vibrant Yelm cult - who even the dominant Orlanth cult acknowledged as the Sun God. Many abandoned their traditional rites to try to approach Yelm (usually through an associated cult) - which caused kinstrife and threatened the Sartar confederation.

Monrogh ended that. He revealed that the traditional solar god was the Sun Dome God, and not an inferior version of Yelm. He showed folk how to reach higher and filled in missing pieces of the god's mythology. Most solar cultists acknowledged the authority of the Sun Dome Temple, although a few maintained their own independence.

Whether the Sun Dome god is called Elmal or Yelmalio, neither are foreign invaders, any more than Storm Bull or Babeester Gor is.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, JonL said:

That may be the thing that bugs me the most about the idea of mass Elmali conversion to Yelmalio. Some dudes will embrace mystically austere barracks lifestyle, sure, but you gotta figure that a lot of Third Age Dragon Pass Elmali are married to Redalda followers - for whom becoming cloistered full-time mothers/gardeners would be anethema.

The problem here is the Sun Dome in Prax is seen as the norm. They were invited in from afar and are unmounted. I'm sure elsewhere its different.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The problem here is the Sun Dome in Prax is seen as the norm. They were invited in from afar and are unmounted. I'm sure elsewhere its different.

The Praxian Sun Domers are most definitely not the norm for the cult.

[JonL]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't think "converting" is the best way to think of this.

"Many of the Elmali converted to Yelmalio." was exactly how you & Greg phrased it in SKoH.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

The problem here is the Sun Dome in Prax is seen as the norm. They were invited in from afar and are unmounted. I'm sure elsewhere its different.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Praxian Sun Domers are most definitely not the norm for the cult.

I just searched through the PDFs of SKoH, PGtA, and the Guide for every instance of "Yelmalio" and nothing describes the Prax cult as being exceptional, nor describes ways in which cults elsewhere diverge from their practices. WRT being unmounted, no references therein (that I could find) describe any Yelmalions West of Prax as other than pikemen, archers, or the vague "militia." The section on Sun Domes in PGtA describes the Praxian model in general and plural language, and the Sun Domer description in SKoH has nothing to distinguish it from the Praxian form.

So yeah, if the Praxian Sun Domers are an outlier rather than a typical case, someone reading these works is not going to have any indication of that being the case.

Edited July 11, 2018 by JonL

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, JonL said:

I just searched through the PDFs of SKoH, PGtA, and the Guide for every instance of "Yelmalio" and nothing describes the Prax cult as being exceptional, nor describes ways in which cults elsewhere diverge from their practices. WRT being unmounted, no references therein (that I could find) describe any Yelmalions West of Prax as other than pikemen, archers, or the vague "militia."

All the Templar regiments are Heavy Infantry, armed with a sarissa, fighting in a phalanx, though the details of their armor varies. Mo Baustra lost, and only recently regained, this fighting technique. They lost their cavalry and chariotry, and have not regained them.

There are also other regional differences: the Vanntar regiment relies upon naked Ergeshi baggage-carriers, who, in addition to carrying supplies, carry a soldier's cuirass, vambraces and greaves, shield, and other equipment when on the march - but not their weapons. Ergesh is the Dara Happan slave god.

Thinking about the other regiments, totally non-canonical, I believe that their location and cultural surroundings influences how their regiment is supported on its flanks, and at home these auxiliaries are probably more important and closer to the 'norm'. In this list, Mo Baustra is very unusual.

Protecting the Flanks

The flanks of a phalanx are very vulnerable and so they are preferably protected by other units.

The Yelmalio Sun Dome temples each have different traditions regarding the protection of the flanks of their pike phalanxes.

 

Yelmalion Regiments	Flank Support
Aggar	Peltasts
Goldedge Foot	Psiloi (archers)
Golden Shields	Chariot & horse archers, psiloi (archers)
Kareiston’s Temple	Chariot & horse archers
Mo Baustra	Peltasts, Praxian auxiliaries, Unicorn Riders
Peralam	Psiloi (archers)
Vanntar	Psiloi (archers)

Edited July 11, 2018 by M Helsdon

[JonL]

21 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

All the Templar regiments are Heavy Infantry, armed with a sarissa, fighting in a phalanx, though the details of their armor varies. Mo Baustra lost, and only recently regained, this fighting technique.

Thinking about the other regiments, totally non-canonical, I believe that their location and cultural surroundings influences how their regiment is supported on its flanks, and at home these auxiliaries are probably more important and closer to the 'norm'. In this list, Mo Baustra is very unusual.

Protecting the Flanks

The flanks of a phalanx are very vulnerable and so they are preferably protected by other units.

The Yelmalio Sun Dome temples each have different traditions regarding the protection of the flanks of their pike phalanxes.

 

Yelmalion Regiments	Flank Support
Aggar	Peltasts
Goldedge Foot	Psiloi (archers)
Golden Shields	Chariot & horse archers, psiloi (archers)
Kareiston’s Temple	Chariot & horse archers
Mo Baustra	Peltasts, Praxian auxiliaries, Unicorn Riders
Peralam	Psiloi (archers)
Vanntar	Psiloi (archers)

I always love your material, Martin. I hope you get it to where you're ready to share the whole work at some point. Some pals & I are gearing up for some Glorantha-themed De Bellis Antiquitatis/Hordes of the Things, and this sort of thing would be just grand.

[JonL]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't think "converting" is the best way to think of this. The Hendrikings had a solar god who defending the cosmos after Orlanth and the other gods departed. He was always pretty minor and when the Hendrikings resettled Dragon Pass, they came into contact with the rich and vibrant Yelm cult - who even the dominant Orlanth cult acknowledged as the Sun God. Many abandoned their traditional rites to try to approach Yelm (usually through an associated cult) - which caused kinstrife and threatened the Sartar confederation.

Monrogh ended that. He revealed that the traditional solar god was the Sun Dome God, and not an inferior version of Yelm. He showed folk how to reach higher and filled in missing pieces of the god's mythology. Most solar cultists acknowledged the authority of the Sun Dome Temple, although a few maintained their own independence.

Whether the Sun Dome god is called Elmal or Yelmalio, neither are foreign invaders, any more than Storm Bull or Babeester Gor is.

Bring it it back to the point of the thread-necromancy, how do you see the Hyalorings and their Elmal tradition fitting into this picture?

(Even when you occasionally frustrate me, I still greatly value your making the time to participate and share here, and was happy to shake hands at Gen Con last year.)

Edited July 11, 2018 by JonL

[M Helsdon]

12 minutes ago, JonL said:

I always love your material, Martin. I hope you get it to where you're ready to share the whole work at some point. Some pals & I are gearing up for some Glorantha-themed De Bellis Antiquitatis/Hordes of the Things, and this sort of thing would be just grand.

Unfortunately, 327 pages (counting the index) about warfare in central Genertela is unlikely to be commercial, and whilst most of it 'is my own work' it breaches so many Chaosium copyrights that it is unlikely to ever be seen unless I buy a license. Some bits and pieces drawn from it may be in Wyrms Footnotes #16...

In the piece above, I tried to analyze the dominant forms of warfare in the region, and then apply it to the Templars; for Orlanthi neighbors you get javelin throwing peltasts (probably equipped with a throwing and a thrusting spear); for those near Pent you get chariot and cavalry archers (the chariots are used to carry archers equipped with small and large bows); in Prax you get fellow cultists riding strange beasts; as a default you get archers.

Edited July 11, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Unfortunately, 327 pages (counting the index) about warfare in central Genertela is unlikely to be commercial, and whilst most of it 'is my own work' it breaches so many Chaosium copyrights that it is unlikely to ever be seen unless I buy a license. Some bits and pieces drawn from it may be in Wyrms Footnotes #16...

In the piece above, I tried to analyze the dominant forms of warfare in the region, and then apply it to the Templars; for Orlanthi neighbors you get javelin throwing peltasts (probably equipped with a throwing and a thrusting spear); for those near Pent you get chariot and cavalry archers (the chariots are used to carry archers equipped with small and large bows); in Prax you get fellow cultists riding strange beasts; as a default you get archers.

How exactly does it breach copyright? If it's because of setting information most of that is probably available somewhere on the web already.

[M Helsdon]

7 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

How exactly does it breach copyright? If it's because of setting information most of that is probably available somewhere on the web already.

Art, pieces of text gathered from Chaosium websites, past and present (often expanded upon/rewritten), unpublished material in circulation (of various levels of canonicity), bits of the Guide, bits of the Eleven Lights, etc. So many infringements of copyright, it has only been shared with Chaosium, two licensees as directed, and the artist. I could sanitize it, but there's always the danger of missing something.

I should add, that it's written from the perspective of someone writing several Ages after the Hero Wars, about as distant in time as we are from Homer's Trojan War.

Sources

At this remote remove from the period, surviving texts from the Hero Wars and afterwards are often fragmentary, and at times contradictory.

Archaeological evidence supplements our knowledge. Unearthed burials, weapons, armor, fortifications, decorated pottery and other pictorial evidence contributes greatly to our understanding. Numerous artifacts are on display in museums.

However, the available sources are never definitive, and must be augmented with speculation and conjecture.

In this book, it is assumed that a real historical period underlies the Legends of Argrath (or the Argraths) and the other Heroes. The most widely accepted dates of the Solar Time chronology are used, though these are, of course, subject to debate.

The present tense is used to immerse the reader in the era.

This permits the speculations to be wrong.

Edited July 11, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Richard S.]

5 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Art, pieces of text gathered from Chaosium websites, past and present (often expanded upon/rewritten), unpublished material in circulation (of various levels of canonicity), bits of the Guide, bits of the Eleven Lights, etc. So many infringements of copyright, it has only been shared with Chaosium, two licensees as directed, and the artist. I could sanitize it, but there's always the danger of missing something.

I should add, that it's written from the perspective of someone writing several Ages after the Hero Wars, about as distant in time as we are from Homer's Trojan War.

Sources

At this remote remove from the period, surviving texts from the Hero Wars and afterwards are often fragmentary, and at times contradictory.

Archaeological evidence supplements our knowledge. Unearthed burials, weapons, armor, fortifications, decorated pottery and other pictorial evidence contributes greatly to our understanding. Numerous artifacts are on display in museums.

However, the available sources are never definitive, and must be augmented with speculation and conjecture.

In this book, it is assumed that a real historical period underlies the Legends of Argrath (or the Argraths) and the other Heroes. The most widely accepted dates of the Solar Time chronology are used, though these are, of course, subject to debate.

The present tense is used to immerse the reader in the era.

This permits the speculations to be wrong.

Oh, that's a shame. From the little bits you've posted it sure sounds interesting.

[JonL]

29 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Unfortunately, 327 pages (counting the index) about warfare in central Genertela is unlikely to be commercial,

PDF+POD is a viable option for niche titles with high page count these days. Onyx Path does all their post-launch sales that way. Wargame Vault's POD rates for a regular color hardback are certainly within reach.
 

 

34 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

... it breaches so many Chaosium copyrights that it is unlikely to ever be seen unless I buy a license.

Croudfunding the cost of the license & additional costs for art and polishing layout is also not inconceivable.

 

37 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Some bits and pieces drawn from it may be in Wyrms Footnotes #16...

I wonder if they'd consider serializing it in WF. If they've had you share it with other licensees as a reference for mini ranges or the like, they obviously consider the material good too.

 

33 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I should add, that it's written from the perspective of someone writing several Ages after the Hero Wars, about as distant in time as we are from Homer's Trojan War.

I love this approach. The Dune Encyclopedia is one of my favorite things ever.

[David Scott]

45 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

How exactly does it breach copyright? If it's because of setting information most of that is probably available somewhere on the web already.

If on the web in some form, it's likely part of a discussion and info from copyright work can be quoted for those purposes. If based on published works, it's derivative and so therefore can't be published without the permission of the owner, or in another way by licence. Being on the web, doesn't make it free or in most cases even legal. Just look at scribd and 4chan. 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, JonL said:

So yeah, if the Praxian Sun Domers are an outlier rather than a typical case, someone reading these works is not going to have any indication of that being the case.

From Cults of Prax I alway though that the Kuschile Horse archery skill gave it away, and that everyone else was mounted.

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

If on the web in some form, it's likely part of a discussion and info from copyright work can be quoted for those purposes. If based on published works, it's derivative and so therefore can't be published without the permission of the owner, or in another way by licence. Being on the web, doesn't make it free or in most cases even legal. Just look at scribd and 4chan. 

I was refering more to stuff like the Glorantha Tumblr or this message board here but okay, I get what you're saying.