Yelmalio in Nochet

[Mark Mohrfield]

I notice from the map that there is a Yelmalio temple in Nochet. I presume that his cult is far less patriarchal than it is in Sartar or Prax, and wondered just how that worked.

[metcalph]

I think the Nochet cult is patriarchal myself as it seems to be mandated by the god rather than a belief of the worshippers.  It accepts an inferior position viz a viz Ernalda as one of the Noble-Brothers and be run as a sacred brotherhood.

Judging by the Brightlight Event in Esrolia: the Land of 10,000 goddesses, the EWF Cult was transplanted to Nochet but was wiped out.  The current Yelmalions would then date from Monrogh's time which means they would be very close in practice to the Dragon Pass Yelmalions.  

[jeffjerwin]

The experience of the proto-Yelmalions under Palangio in Nochet might be connected to this cult...? Certainly he made an impression on Nochet and actually ruled the city for a while - the Xentha temple was destroyed at his orders, though the Grandmothers minimize his era in their histories. Thus the Yelmalio cult may descend from the Daysenerus cult directly. Just a possibility, anyway.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Thus the Yelmalio cult may descend from the Daysenerus cult directly. 

A slight problem in that any Daysenerus cult in Nochet would have been ruthlessly destroyed along other Nysaloran institutions 

[jeffjerwin]

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A slight problem in that any Daysenerus cult in Nochet would have been ruthlessly destroyed along other Nysaloran institutions 

True enough. I wonder how that influenced later interactions with the cult... If Palangio's rule involved any temple building, that is.

[Joerg]

How intertwined were Daysenerus and Nysalor? Their leadership being illuminated doesn't differ much from the later Tharkantus cult leadership being draconized.

Compare Black Arkat - after Daramhy's vendetta against fellow Kitori (who happened to worship Black Arkat), the Hendriki king who hated the Arkatings (never making clear whether he meant Kitori darkmen/not-quite-humans or sorcerous Arkati) laid the seeds and the Tax Slaughter cemented their being pushed into hiding, but never extinction. So why would non-illuminated Daysenerus cult elements be completely eradicated? They could very well have hidden in the glow of Harono. From the Ezel episode, it does appear that Palangio did pay his respect to local cults that weren't Heortling.

The Esrolians managed to retain their local names for Yelm (Harono) and Lodril (Vestkarthan), and kept their myths apart from the monomyth despite being (under)mined extensively by God Learner investigators/students..

Palangio would have built temple garrisons, and those structures would have been targeted and probably re-dedicated, depriving the cultists of their homes and their holy places.

 

[M Helsdon]

11 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I notice from the map that there is a Yelmalio temple in Nochet. I presume that his cult is far less patriarchal than it is in Sartar or Prax, and wondered just how that worked.

Its name of Little Vanntar suggests a very close link with the relatively new Yelmalion statelet in Sartar.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Its name of Little Vanntar suggests a very close link with the relatively new Yelmalion statelet in Sartar.

Though Vanntar/Vaantar is also where Palangio et al. defeated the Uz and Heortlings in the Battle of Night and Day and hence the Sun Dome, whenever it was founded, was fixed by the exploits of Daysenerus as incarnated by the Iron Vrok. So that could also support the notion of a synthetic or even a continual link between the Bright Empire and the Nochet cult.

The Sundomers are obviously ideally placed to un-mother the Trolls on behalf of Tarkalor as reflections of Palangio and his phalanxes (cf. the barely hidden etymology of phalanx/-ges and p[h]alangio...). This suggests that the inner secrets of the Sun Dome in Vanntar include Daysenerus and... Nysalor. 

[Jeff]

Let me just warn folk against making too much of a direct link between events more than 1200 years apart. 

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Though Vanntar/Vaantar is also where Palangio et al. defeated the Uz and Heortlings in the Battle of Night and Day

No, the site was many tens of miles to the north west in Solthon Vale.

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

So that could also support the notion of a synthetic or even a continual link between the Bright Empire and the Nochet cult.

 

Improbable. The Grandmothers utterly destroyed the cult of Yelmalio in Esrolia centuries ago.

[jeffjerwin]

10 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

No, the site was many tens of miles to the north west in Solthon Vale.

Sorry wires crossed: this is the battle of Vaantar (which does have a connexion to the Sun Dome, however): http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Vaantar

[M Helsdon]

2 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Sorry wires crossed: this is the battle of Vaantar (which does have a connexion to the Sun Dome, however): http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Vaantar

Too long ago. I seriously doubt that a group of Yelmalions survived in Nochet that long.

[jeffjerwin]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Too long ago. I seriously doubt that a group of Yelmalions survived in Nochet that long.

Yes, you're right. However, the way the Grandmothers operate, their relationships with male gods tends to be told in the terms of nothing ever changes. Orlanth's and the Kodigvaris' supposed misdeeds are applied to every Orlanthi, whereas Palangio's every misdeed applies to every Yelmalion. So the relationship between the matriarchy and the Yelmalio temple might see all that dredged up whenever politically useful to the ruling women. The Yelmalions themselves, however, define themselves in terms of recent history and the Sun theological arguments (or their military history in the last generation) and would wonder why it keeps being mentioned...

[M Helsdon]

58 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Yes, you're right. However, the way the Grandmothers operate, their relationships with male gods tends to be told in the terms of nothing ever changes. Orlanth's and the Kodigvaris' supposed misdeeds are applied to every Orlanthi, whereas Palangio's every misdeed applies to every Yelmalion. So the relationship between the matriarchy and the Yelmalio temple might see all that dredged up whenever politically useful to the ruling women. The Yelmalions themselves, however, define themselves in terms of recent history and the Sun theological arguments (or their military history in the last generation) and would wonder why it keeps being mentioned...

The Noble Brothers

The defenders of Ernalda and Nochet, led by Irillo are worshipped at the Noble Brothers Temple in Nochet.

Irillo: He fought in the Last Royal Betrayal, a major battle of the Sword and Helm War ancient feud which destroyed the Kodigvari and the unity of the Vingkotlings. He managed to survive and made his way back home because his sister-in-law came from the land in which the battle was fought. Irillo defended the Grandmothers when Rastagar, the King of the Vingkotlings threatened them and was killed, but later returned as a dead man offering to defend Nochet.

Deresagar: A son of Argan Argar, and patron of spearmen.

Nolerianmar: A son of Elmal, and god of horsemen.

Harasarl: Beloved Sarl, patron of warriors who fight in the style of the Orlanthi. He is said to defend Nochet from Orlanth, but is an aspect of the god acceptable to the Esrolian Grandmothers.

Helamakt: The Swordsman, he is the Fighting Storm who uses his winds to fight for him: Killer Rain Gale as his Swordthane; Blinding Shadow as his Shieldthane; Searing Bolt as his Spearthane; Falling Wind as his Backboy.

Kalavan: A son of Veskarthan who fights with a flaming spear.

Tenderos: The Copper Warrior.

Tersh: A god of archery.

Yelmalio: Although the Esrolians revile Yelmalio for events that occurred in the Second Age, and know that Elmal is the rightful Sun God, he remains one of the Noble Brothers. There is no tradition of Sun Dome phalanxes in Esrolia.

[Mark Mohrfield]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The Noble Brothers

What is the source for this?

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

What is the source for this?

Esrolia: the Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses

[Mark Mohrfield]

57 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Esrolia: the Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses

That passage doesn't seem to be in my copy. Was it revised at some date?

[metcalph]

18 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

That passage doesn't seem to be in my copy. Was it revised at some date?

The list is from the PDF p39.  Additional information in the list which does not appear there comes from elsewhere within the same text.

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I notice from the map that there is a Yelmalio temple in Nochet. I presume that his cult is far less patriarchal than it is in Sartar or Prax, and wondered just how that worked.

Yes, there is a Yelmalio temple.  No, it's not a grand Sun Dome.

My writeup notes: 

The Sun Dome Temple.  This is not like the glorious Sun Domes of Sartar or Saird, but a rather poor bee-hive like building of stone blocks painted yellow-gold on top.  Despite its inglorious appearance, the local warriors are keen fighters though they use substantially shorter spears to maneuver through the streets of Nochet than their northern brethren.

It is within the neighborhood known as Little Vanntar.  As @M Helsdon commented, it's name reflects the origin of the inhabitants: recent arrivals from the Sun Dome lands of Vanntar granted to Monrogh.

Little Vanntar: For long the temple of Yelmalio was banished from Nochet and Esrolia, yet Green Ernalda called him back and, garbed in the Robes of Loyalty, he returned.  House Pelgraeos granted Yelmalio a small corner of Pella’s Garden and this has become known to all nearby as Little Vanntar based on the origin of most of its inhabitants.

20 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think the Nochet cult is patriarchal myself as it seems to be mandated by the god rather than a belief of the worshippers.  It accepts an inferior position viz a viz Ernalda as one of the Noble-Brothers and be run as a sacred brotherhood.

Yes, this is my assumption as well.  

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I presume that his cult is far less patriarchal than it is in Sartar or Prax, and wondered just how that worked.

Within their temple and neighborhood, I think they keep to their practices.  They sell the services of their mercenaries, make honey, and pay tribute and in return have a home within Nochet.  

[Mark Mohrfield]

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Its name of Little Vanntar suggests a very close link with the relatively new Yelmalion statelet in Sartar.

Maybe it should be named "Littler Vanntar":)

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Maybe it should be named "Littler Vanntar":)

They have big hopes. ;-)

[Christoph Kohring]

On 3/15/2018 at 7:49 PM, Jeff said:

Let me just warn folk against making too much of a direct link between events more than 1200 years apart. 

Yeah, one good reason for the Sun Dome Temple in Forthanland (or is it in the Amber Fields?!?) not to be called Vaantar. Who in 1579 ST or in 1627 ST knows anything about it? And those who know something about it might not be happy with the temple to Daysenerus that Palangio built there after the 397 ST battle or if they are OK with it might hide this history...

Edited February 21, 2019 by Christoph Kohring

[Joerg]

Why, let's populate the region with New New Orleans and New New New Yorks, then...

The exact details may be lost or have acquired fairy tale status, but lost monuments with ties to deities still worshipped will carry on in some way or other.

We have no real idea how the language changed between the ages. Was Auld Wyrmish influence the major change of the Imperial Age, to come and to be excised (along with a majority of the speakers of Wyrmish-influenced language), or were there gradual changes and adaptations to new fashionable expressions and modes of speaking, too?

Who in 1579 knows about it? All the local godlings and spirits that witnessed these events and that require certain weird gifts or taboos in relation to that. The amorphous mass of ancestors, and the popular ballads of tragic heroism against the unstoppable Bright Empire, the hurtful liberation and betrayal by Arkat, and the lingering Shadow Tribute demands that may re-visit you despite the Tax Slaughter attempt to end them for good (which happened a millennium ago, and may not matter any more). And of course the written or (alliteratively) rhymed histories of past times, though parsing the kennings correctly may be harder than relating to Shakespearan ideas.

Where I live and work, ancient districts and fallen cities persist in weird ways - the big fallen city being Hedeby, abandoned 953 years ago, and the enigmatic drowned city being Rungholt, swept away by the Mandrenke 657 years ago. We have some place names dating back before the Angles packed up and left, and others in between from later settlement and condensing efforts. You wouldn't believe some of the weirder place names in modern Anglia.

And all of that pales in comparison to the long history of places like Cyprus, even though a lot of the less "ancient" stuff there is weirdly out of place, like gothic cathedrals (not a home-grown feature) turned into mosques.

[Darius West]

On 3/15/2018 at 1:31 PM, Mark Mohrfield said:

I notice from the map that there is a Yelmalio temple in Nochet. I presume that his cult is far less patriarchal than it is in Sartar or Prax, and wondered just how that worked.

Presume nothing on this score.  It is probably an offshoot of the Sun Valley temple, acting as a local temple and embassy for Sartar's Sun Domers.  It is quite likely that there is a lot of call for Yelmalios for mercenary work in the area.  As to it being less patriarchal, think again.  When pushed, Yelmalio hoplites dig in their heels and push back, especially against wanton harlots (male or female)  

Edited February 24, 2019 by Darius West