Are 2H weapons the only way to go?

[Valeren]

Hi all,

Since the 2H weapons are faster, hit harder, have almost as many HP as shield,s and allow 1 attack and 1 full defense, and since we can now dodge arrows, why would anyone use 1H weapons?

Am I missing something?

[Oracle]

Hhm, in fact my first reaction to this question is, that RuneQuest Roleplaying in Glorantha is first and foremost a roleplaying game, so selecting weapons for a new character should not be driven by maximising the fighting impact, but by the role, that the new character should play, and if the weapon is suitable for that role, i.e. his cultural background, his cult, his personal history, etc. ...

[soltakss]

48 minutes ago, Valeren said:

Hi all,

Since the 2H weapons are faster, hit harder, have almost as many HP as shield,s and allow 1 attack and 1 full defense, and since we can now dodge arrows, why would anyone use 1H weapons?

Am I missing something?

Shields. Traidtionally better than weapons for parrying, but haven't checked them out fully in RQG yet.

Also, 1 2H weapon only allows you to attack once, if you don't have a 100%+ skill, whereas using 2 1H Weapons allows you to attack twice if needed. In RQ2, I used to like a Spear & Shield combo for normal fighting, but nothing beat going Berserk with 2 bastard swords.

Edited June 17, 2018 by soltakss

[Atgxtg]

57 minutes ago, Valeren said:

Hi all,

Since the 2H weapons are faster, hit harder, have almost as many HP as shield,s and allow 1 attack and 1 full defense, and since we can now dodge arrows, why would anyone use 1H weapons?

Am I missing something?

Yes, a mount. You can't used 2H weapons while mounted.

Oh, and almost any many HP as shields means a little more damage getting past your parries. A point or two here and there can add up. 

[Runeblogger]

Wow, you can dodge arrows now if you spend all your turn doing only that. Surprising!

Edited June 17, 2018 by Runeblogger

[Valeren]

Thanks for these answers.

Of course roleplay is very important but in my opinion the game system has a lot to do with the roleplay and the setting of it's universe. If a system makes a weapon (or a spell or anything else) very powerful, factions not using it will be seen as fools. So I wanted to be sure I didn't miss anything.

I forgot about mounted combat and versatility, thanks.

Page 201 : Dodge can be used against any weapon attack the defender is aware of (including projectile weapons)- Parry can be used against melee weapons and thrown weapons, but not against projectile weapons. However, see Use of Shield Against Missile Weapons (page 219) for additional information.

[Valeren]

28 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Wow, you can dodge arrows now if you spend all your turn doing only that. Surprising!

I missed that you had to focus only on dodging during the round. Can you tell me the page number please?

[Noita]

My pcs will still use clubs. I love clubs. And fists.

I have an pc who uses two frying pans. 

[Unferth]

54 minutes ago, Valeren said:

I missed that you had to focus only on dodging during the round. Can you tell me the page number please?

Dodge skill description, p. 165. It's only required vs. missiles, you can dodge in melee without taking the whole round.

Or at least that's one way to interpret "[Dodge] takes one entire melee round when used against missile attacks, and cannot be used in strike ranks while the adventurer is occupied with shooting a missile weapon."

Edited June 17, 2018 by Unferth

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Also, 1 2H weapon only allows you to attack once, if you don't have a 100%+ skill, whereas using 2 1H Weapons allows you to attack twice if needed. In RQ2, I used to like a Spear & Shield combo for normal fighting, but nothing beat going Berserk with 2 bastard swords.

Needs a separate combat skill though.

[Atgxtg]

40 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Needs a separate combat skill though.

No it doesn't, you can use half you skill in the primary hand (Quickstart p. 16 Two Weapon Use), but you'd certainly want to train up the separate combat skill. But from a purely game mechanics/tactical standpoint, I think soltakss has got the inside track for success.  Imagine being 100% with 1H Sword, grabbing an off-hand blade and starting at 50% 

 

Oh, and another drawback to 2H weapons is that you need two hands to wield them, and you're in big trouble if either arm gets disabled. With a 1H weapon, you only  only need  one hand, and can even  wield itin the off-hand at half skill. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Atgxtg

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Oracle said:

Hhm, in fact my first reaction to this question is, that RuneQuest Roleplaying in Glorantha is first and foremost a roleplaying game, so selecting weapons for a new character should not be driven by maximising the fighting impact, but by the role, that the new character should play, and if the weapon is suitable for that role, i.e. his cultural background, his cult, his personal history, etc. ...

I can't think of a tool where pure utility is more critical. A person doesn't use a hammer because they're a carpenter, they're using a hammer because they need a hammer because it's the best tool to drive a nail.

Weapons are for killing, and with quasi-realistic combat like RQ, you should be definitely incentivized to go for maximal utility to end combats as quickly as possible.

Certainly cultural context will CONSTRAIN available choices (a Norse warrior couldn't reasonably start with a katana) but to suggest the role defines the tool used is really backwards.

 

To answer the op, certainly 2h weapons are maximal damage, etc but their CRUCIAL vulnerability is your two arms are needed to wield them.  Either arm being incapacitated means you can neither attack nor parry.  That's a huge deal.

[simonh]

Also I believe you can only cast magic if you have a hand free. If you are using a 1H weapon or shield at least you can defend yourself while doing so.

if the only thing you care about is maximum damage in hand to hand combat on foot, yes, 2H weapons rule. However that’s not the only thing that matters, and the game really does reflect that.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No it doesn't, you can use half you skill in the primary hand (Quickstart p. 16 Two Weapon Use), but you'd certainly want to train up the separate combat skill. But from a purely game mechanics/tactical standpoint, I think soltakss has got the inside track for success.  Imagine being 100% with 1H Sword, grabbing an off-hand blade and starting at 50%. 

Quote

• Page 225

• ...Use of a weapon in the “off ” hand must be started at 05%, with the usual addition or subtraction for their Manipulation skills category modifier  ...

• The player must keep track of the individual weapon expertise of the adventurer with each weapon as used in each hand. Training or experience in using a weapon left-handed does not help the right-handed attack or parry with the same weapon, except that the half effectiveness rule applies. For example, use of a dagger left-handed, allows the adventurer to use it right-handed at half the left hand ability.

So, there's something odd here. If you have a right hand skill, you can't use it left handed, you need a separate skill. But if you have a left hand skill, you can use it right handed at half chance! I'm not sure what other rule the "half effectiveness" line is referring to. I suspect that that line is a hang over from a previous replaced rule.

Edited June 17, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Oracle]

3 hours ago, styopa said:

I can't think of a tool where pure utility is more critical. A person doesn't use a hammer because they're a carpenter, they're using a hammer because they need a hammer because it's the best tool to drive a nail.

Weapons are for killing, and with quasi-realistic combat like RQ, you should be definitely incentivized to go for maximal utility to end combats as quickly as possible.

Certainly cultural context will CONSTRAIN available choices (a Norse warrior couldn't reasonably start with a katana) but to suggest the role defines the tool used is really backwards.

 

To answer the op, certainly 2h weapons are maximal damage, etc but their CRUCIAL vulnerability is your two arms are needed to wield them.  Either arm being incapacitated means you can neither attack nor parry.  That's a huge deal.

No issue with that, but the original question was

7 hours ago, Valeren said:

... why would anyone use 1H weapons?

...

and the answer, that appeared in my mind immediately, was: because the context (i.e. the role) of the character demands it.

But obviously (as this thread shows), there are other reasons too ...

Edited June 17, 2018 by Oracle

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

So, there's something odd here. If you have a right hand skill, you can't use it left handed, you need a separate skill. But if you have a left hand skill, you can use it right handed at half chance! I'm not sure what other rule the "half effectiveness" line is referring to. I suspect that that line is a hang over from a previous replaced rule.

Yeah, it's from the Quickstart (Page 16, Spot Rules):

• Two Weapon Use: Should a character wish to wield a weapon in each hand, they can be used for two attacks, two parries, or one attack and one parry. Unless trained specifically, use of the weapon in the “off” hand is at 1/2 the normal skill rating. The second attack is made at a strike rank equal to the strike rank of the first attack added to the usual strike rank for the second weapon. If both strike ranks add up to more than 12, then both cannot attack in one round.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

No issue with that, but the original question was

and the answer, that appeared in my mind immediately, was: because the context (i.e. the role) of the character demands it.

But obviously (as this thread shows), there are other reasons too ...

Yes, that's the question that I directly answered with:

"To answer the op, certainly 2h weapons are maximal damage, etc but their CRUCIAL vulnerability is your two arms are needed to wield them.  Either arm being incapacitated means you can neither attack nor parry.  That's a huge deal."

So I guess for those needing it explicit: people use 1h weapons because they are a) far less vulnerable to being unable to act by an arm injury, and b) (to add) a 1h weapon allows you to use a shield, which is utterly critical for dealing with missile weapons.

[StephenMcG]

The other issue with a 2H weapon over sword and shield is the damage inflicted on whatever is used to parry.  If you have a weapon and shield and your shield is ruined - you can still attack.  If your 2H weapon is ruined then you cant parry OR attack.  

Of course, this is where the bastard sword shines - as you lose your shield, move to use it 2H and retain your combat effectiveness...

Stephen

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, StephenMcG said:

Of course, this is where the bastard sword shines - as you lose your shield, move to use it 2H and retain your combat effectiveness...

Sadly there is no such thing. There's the Battle Axe, which can be used 1 or 2 handed, but I think the weapon skill has to be raised separately. The sample characters have just "Battle Axe" skill listed, and you have to read Vasana's Saga to find out that it is 1-handed. Yanioth has Battle Axe skill, but does not have the STR to use it 1-handed.

Edited June 18, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 Yanioth has Battle Axe skill, but does not have the STR to use it 1-handed.

At one time that used to mean a just  a reduction in skill. How does RQG handle that?

[PhilHibbs]

12 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

At one time that used to mean a just  a reduction in skill. How does RQG handle that?

Half skill. The rule is slightly ambiguous if STR is below but DEX is not, as higher STR can make up for lack of DEX but not vice versa. This was mentioned in the corrections thread so it should get cleared up.

[styopa]

43 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sadly there is no such thing. There's the Battle Axe, which can be used 1 or 2 handed, but I think the weapon skill has to be raised separately. The sample characters have just "Battle Axe" skill listed, and you have to read Vasana's Saga to find out that it is 1-handed. Yanioth has Battle Axe skill, but does not have the STR to use it 1-handed.

Yes.  The Bastard Sword (or hand-and-a-half sword) isn't really a thing historically.  It's more of a 2h-style-used-with-a-longsword than a category of weapon precisely.  I can certainly see such a weapon aiming for the midpoint between greatsword and longsword being good at nothing - too heavy to use 1h effectively, yet too light/short to really get the leverage of a 2h.

[FinnDeviltry]

Speaking of two-handed weapon use some more, have you guys noticed that on pdf page 62 one of the cultural weapons of the High Llama Riders is the "2H Dagger-Axe"? 

Does this mean that in RQG you actually can use two-handed weapons while riding? Or maybe not every type but at least the dagger-axe? Or maybe not everyone can but the High Llama Riders yes? How do you guys see this?

[Atgxtg]

55 minutes ago, styopa said:

Yes.  The Bastard Sword (or hand-and-a-half sword) isn't really a thing historically.  It's more of a 2h-style-used-with-a-longsword than a category of weapon precisely.  I can certainly see such a weapon aiming for the midpoint between greatsword and longsword being good at nothing - too heavy to use 1h effectively, yet too light/short to really get the leverage of a 2h.

It was a "thing" historically. They used to have several of them on display at Higgen's Armory. But  you're right. they were mostly 1H swords with a longer grip, maybe with a little more blade-basically whatever the wielder could get away with 1 handed.. More a case of adapting the weapons to what knights were doing with their 1H swords to try and bash through better armor. Pendragon and even D&D 3 probably have it about right with the extra damage in a 2H grip, although it's was probably as much about balance and control as about damage. 

 

One of the tricks to a good bastard sword is to increase the length but not the weight. Like with a fuller-and shift the "sweet spot" (intended point on contact) of the blade forward a bit to take advantage of the longer lever. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

39 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Half skill. The rule is slightly ambiguous if STR is below but DEX is not, as higher STR can make up for lack of DEX but not vice versa. This was mentioned in the corrections thread so it should get cleared up.

Ouch. That's harsh. Does Yanioth know Strength Spirit Magic? It used to be the best way around stat minimums.