Yelmalian Independence?

[Daniel Stevenson]

I recall the RQG rulebook saying that the Sun Dome Temple in Sartar is a small theocracy independent from the surrounding state.  Are they completely autonomous, or do they simply have different customs which they defend despite their neighbors' hostility?  Does this degree of autonomy extend to the other Sun Dome Temples as well?

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

I recall the RQG rulebook saying that the Sun Dome Temple in Sartar is a small theocracy independent from the surrounding state.  Are they completely autonomous, or do they simply have different customs which they defend despite their neighbors' hostility?  Does this degree of autonomy extend to the other Sun Dome Temples as well?

There's a detailed overview of them in Wyrms Footnotes#15; I believe it is now out-of-print, but PDFs can be purchased.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

I recall the RQG rulebook saying that the Sun Dome Temple in Sartar is a small theocracy independent from the surrounding state.  Are they completely autonomous, or do they simply have different customs which they defend despite their neighbors' hostility?  Does this degree of autonomy extend to the other Sun Dome Temples as well?

I'd say the section in the Homelands on page 108 pretty much answers it:

self-sufficient would answer that for me, and not Orlanthi but Heorling culture/yelmalio - so completely autonomous and have their own cult customs. Other sun domes - Yes as this is the one the others look to.

(avoiding pointing you at stuff you might not have)

Edited July 12, 2018 by David Scott

[Daniel Stevenson]

38 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'd say the section in the Homelands on page 108 pretty much answers it:

self-sufficient would answer that for me, and not Orlanthi but Heorling culture/yelmalio - so completely autonomous and have their own cult customs. Other sun domes - Yes as this is the one the others look to.

(avoiding pointing you at stuff you might not have)

Oh, yes, I did mean Heortling.  The part that made me unsure was the description of Goldedge:

Quote

This is one of the Sun Dome Temples of the Yelmalio cult. The city is home to the Goldedge Foot Regiment of the Provincial Army.

It made it sound like the Sun Domers were Incorporated into the Lunar army.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

It made it sound like the Sun Domers were Incorporated into the Lunar army.

Several Templar regiments serve in the Provincial Army. One from Aggar, the Golden Shields of Holay, Kareiston’s Templars from Imther, the Goldedge Foot of Tarsh, and one from Vanch.

The temples have a very long history of fighting for various employers, often changing sides: they fought against and for the EWF, they've fought against and for the Lunar Empire, and once Rurik is instated as Count of Sun Dome County in Dragon Pass, some will be fighting on either side... The Sun Dome in Prax is in civil war.

Edited July 12, 2018 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

56 minutes ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

It made it sound like the Sun Domers were Incorporated into the Lunar army.

The Goldedge Sun Domers serve the King of Tarsh.  They send him a regiment to serve in his army as part of their obligations to him.  The King in return puts many of his forces at the disposal of the Provincial Government.  

Within the county of Goldedge, the Sun Dome Temple acts as the government similar to how they operates in Vanntar and Sun County.  But the temple acknowledges the political supremacy of the King (who in return keeps out of their way) and Lunar agents have a much freer hand here than in the Vaantar and Prax Sun Domes..

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

It made it sound like the Sun Domers were Incorporated into the Lunar army.

Yes, many serve within it, but I think @metcalph describes correctly.

48 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Goldedge Sun Domers serve the King of Tarsh.  They send him a regiment to serve in his army as part of their obligations to him.  The King in return puts many of his forces at the disposal of the Provincial Government.  

Many of the Sun Domes in the Lunar Provinces owe tributary obligations to the Lunar Empire which they fulfill through mercenary units.  These obligations probably date to the Lunar reconquest of the provinces post-Sheng.  As there is no cross-temple hierarchy, the obligations certainly vary by temple.

[jeffjerwin]

Of course all this means that when Tarsh and Holay are conquered by Argrath and his allies, the Sun Dome mercenaries change sides, so long as the rituals of kingship (marriage to the Sacred Queen in some cases) are adhered to.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, jeffjerwin said:

Of course all this means that when Tarsh and Holay are conquered by Argrath and his allies, the Sun Dome mercenaries change sides

Well, he'd certainly like them too!  Whether he meets/satisfies their requirements is another question (and certainly useful ones to send his lackeys, aka PC's, off to fulfill).

[soltakss]

On 7/12/2018 at 5:14 PM, Daniel Stevenson said:

I recall the RQG rulebook saying that the Sun Dome Temple in Sartar is a small theocracy independent from the surrounding state.  Are they completely autonomous, or do they simply have different customs which they defend despite their neighbors' hostility?  Does this degree of autonomy extend to the other Sun Dome Temples as well?

All Yelmalian Sun Dome Temples are autonomous, in that the Count rules the Sun County. They are mercenaries and hire soldiers out to certain people, not necessarily the highest bidders, but to like-minded people.

They have a strong connection to the Lunars, as the Red Emperor is Emperor of Dara Happa and outranks all Yelmalians. In fact, any Yelm worshipper outranks all Yelmalians, so they don't like it when Dara Happan Yelm worshippers come to visit.

[Daniel Stevenson]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

All Yelmalian Sun Dome Temples are autonomous, in that the Count rules the Sun County. They are mercenaries and hire soldiers out to certain people, not necessarily the highest bidders, but to like-minded people.

They have a strong connection to the Lunars, as the Red Emperor is Emperor of Dara Happa and outranks all Yelmalians. In fact, any Yelm worshipper outranks all Yelmalians, so they don't like it when Dara Happan Yelm worshippers come to visit.

So do all Temples have pro-Lunar attitudes?

[soltakss]

25 minutes ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

So do all Temples have pro-Lunar attitudes?

Probably, or probably not.

Yelmalians are tied to the Dara Happan way, as Yelmalio is the son of Yelm. The Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor, so is the effective, but very far away, head of the cult.

However, it probably varies by area. 

In Prax, the Yelmalians definitely helped the Lunars in the Cradle scenario and in the Sun County supplement.

In the Dragon Pass area, they are probably neutral, but the Yelmalians of Alda Chur are probably friendly.

In Balazar, the Yelmalian Temple in Elkoi is controlled by the Lunars, but the one on Dykene is very independent.

[Daniel Stevenson]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Probably, or probably not.

Yelmalians are tied to the Dara Happan way, as Yelmalio is the son of Yelm. The Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor, so is the effective, but very far away, head of the cult.

However, it probably varies by area. 

In Prax, the Yelmalians definitely helped the Lunars in the Cradle scenario and in the Sun County supplement.

In the Dragon Pass area, they are probably neutral, but the Yelmalians of Alda Chur are probably friendly.

In Balazar, the Yelmalian Temple in Elkoi is controlled by the Lunars, but the one on Dykene is very independent.

Does that make Rurik Runespear a rebel, then?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

So do all Temples have pro-Lunar attitudes?

No. but the Lunars pay well. 😉

1 hour ago, Daniel Stevenson said:

Does that make Rurik Runespear a rebel, then?

Only after he joins Argrath!

[MOB]

On 7/13/2018 at 7:18 AM, M Helsdon said:

The temples have a very long history of fighting for various employers, often changing sides: they fought against and for the EWF, they've fought against and for the Lunar Empire, and once Rurik is instated as Count of Sun Dome County in Dragon Pass, some will be fighting on either side... The Sun Dome in Prax is in civil war.

The Sun Domers of Prax have been very good at picking sides (or at least not being on the losing side) throughout their history - else they wouldn't still be around. The Yelmalio forces adroitly change sides midway through the Second Battle of Moonbroth, shortly after the (somewhat mysterious, some would say suspicious) death of the reigning count in battle. Civil strife ensues when the authorities back at the Sun Dome Temple itself refuse to accept the victorious general who took over command and proclaimed himself count, considering that indecently presumptuous, or the political-religious deal he made with Argrath White Bull, which they consider outrageously blasphemous.

Edited July 14, 2018 by MOB

[Daniel Stevenson]

1 minute ago, MOB said:

The Yelmalio forces adroitly change sides midway through the Second Battle of Moonbroth, shortly after the (somewhat mysterious, some would say suspicious) death of the reigning count in battle. Civil strife ensues when the authorities back at the Sun Dome Temple itself refuse to accept the victorious general who took over command and proclaimed himself count, considering that indecently presumptuous, or the political-religious deal he made with Argrath White Bull, which they consider outrageously blasphemous.

So, in other words, it depends on the Count.

[EricW]

The Yelmalios have scruples when it suits them.

In Orlanth is Dead the Sun Dome contingent of the Lunar Army turn on the Lunars after the Lunars unleash chaos magic against the Orlanthi - blatant use of Chaos violated the Sun Dome agreement with the Lunars.

Having said that there are other examples which are less clear. In the Battle of Night and Day the Yelmalios fought on the side of Nysalor, even though the Great Army of Restraint were using Chaos against the troll foes. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by EricW

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, EricW said:

Having said that there are other examples which are less clear. In the Battle of Night and Day the Yelmalios fought on the side of Nysalor, even though the Great Army of Restraint were using Chaos against the troll foes. 

What was the Chaos at the Battle of Night and Day?

[Richard S.]

15 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What was the Chaos at the Battle of Night and Day?

Technically Nyaslor himself possessed the chaos rune to a degree.

[EricW]

38 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What was the Chaos at the Battle of Night and Day?

Fair point. The Trollkin curse and breaking the compromise were a bit iffy.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

In the Battle of Night and Day the Yelmalios fought on the side of Nysalor

Have to remember that Nysalor revealed Daysenereus there, which is just another name for Yelmalio.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Have to remember that Nysalor revealed Daysenereus there, which is just another name for Yelmalio.

I take it that this is similar to Tarumath being hero-formed by Lokomayadon, rather than Nysalor actually being Yelmalio/Daysenereus...?

Edit: Of course, Elmal had to confront the Teller of Lies [Nysalor] even during the Great Darkness, and the somewhat ambiguous way Elmal defeats him may be important - he takes him within himself, or enters into him...

Edited July 15, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Nysalor actually being Yelmalio/Daysenereus...?

Nysalor is not Yelmalio/Daysenerus.  The story is in WF15 (and I was incorrect in having Nysalor reveal Daysenerus - it occurs the other way around).  

Palangio Daysenerus, war god now, no longer a High God in battle, turned to confront Kyger Litor, unafraid of that which was death. And then, from within that deity, came forth the last of the New Gods of that day. A man walked forth from the breastplate of the giant figure. Only man sized and thus small and insignificant, he appeared upon a pale translucent walkway that stretched from Daysenerus to Kyger Litor. The man stepped upon it and began walking towards the Devourer. Everyone upon that bloody field who feared death was inexplicably calmed then, even the ones that the Eater itself held in her hand. “Nysalor,” sounded the name from far overhead.