RQG - Critical Crushing Damage clarification

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

33 minutes ago, gochie said:

Huh? RAW crushing special hits deal Weapon damage + STR bonus + max STR bonus… Which is really strange, especially paired with the fact that critical hits don't deal anymore damage (just ignore armor).

Thus why I shared my fix above--slightly lower STR bonus on special hits and higher STR bonus on crits.

Ah I think I see where your coming from. You’re suggesting there’s no difference in damage between a special crush and critical crush? Apart from the ignoring armour? 

However you’re forgetting that crush weapon damage should also be maximised on a critical:

Critical Crush : maximum rolled weapon damage + max dam bonus 

It’s the same principle for slash and impale they do maximum special damage. 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Should be - just wasn't clear from the above posts that they were keeping that.

Actually, I can think of a justification for some results applying after armour. That's not how it works, but I think it's worth considering.

Impale, for instance. The typical explanation is that it does extra damage because it gets stuck in the wound. So, the extra damage done should not help it bypass armour. If you do 4 points of damage against 6 points of armour, but the impale doubled that to 8 points, 2 would go through. But maybe it should not, maybe you should compare the normal damage to the armour, and if that equals or exceeds the armour, then you add the impale damage on top. So if you rolled 6 damage, against 6 armour, then you get the the extra 6 which go through. Or the extra dice roll, I can't remember.

Probably not worth the extra complexity.

[gochie]

9 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

However your forgetting that crush weapon damage should also be maximised on a critical:

Nope. Only Slashing and Impaling damage get a damage bonus on crits, RAW.

[gochie]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Probably not worth the extra complexity.

So many rules could be added/changed… Crits damaging armor (especially crushing), melee weapon ranges, having a different SR for first hits and subsequent hits…

I'm thinking of toying with the SR thing, but one could easily get a little too deep into the rabbit hole.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

58 minutes ago, gochie said:

Nope. Only Slashing and Impaling damage get a damage bonus on crits, RAW.

 
Yep- The boxed text isn’t super clear that’s why I originally started this thread. It’s not 100% obvious whether the rolled damage bonus of a crush is part of the special damage or just standard. That’s my issue. The rest seems clear to me. 
 

The main text of crush does use the word *regular* damage bonus, which suggests to me that there is a dam bonus on a crush, and it’s the standard dam bonus you add to any attack.  However the wording of the boxed text goes the other way suggesting both damage modifiers could be part of the special damage. Should probably put this up on the core questions. Maybe it’s already up there? 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

For those that were wondering the official answer as from Scott in the core rules question thread is:

Special Crush (page 206) rolled weapon damage plus rolled Damage Bonus plus Maximum Damage Bonus.

Critical Crush (page 206) rolled weapon damage plus twice Maximum Damage Bonus, ignores armour.

 

 

[gochie]

On 3/4/2020 at 10:09 AM, gochie said:

It's very strange in the rules. For some reason crushing damage doesn't increase in damage on a crit while the other ones do.

I would do:

Special: Weapon damage + STR bonus (x2)

Crit: Weapon damage + Max STR bonus (x2)

🧐

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

25 minutes ago, gochie said:

🧐

Personally I prefer the official ruling, does more damage which makes it more dramatic. 

I was wondering why you decided not to maximise the main rolled weapon damage on your house rule for critical crush, as that’s the thing all crits have in common across the board?

[gochie]

4 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Personally I prefer the official ruling, does more damage which makes it more dramatic. 

I was wondering why you decided not to maximise the main rolled weapon damage on your house rule for critical crush, as that’s the thing all crits have in common across the board?

Huh? My ruling is exactly the same as the official ruling, hence *Monocle Emoticon*. They don't maximize weapon damage, only STR bonus.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

30 minutes ago, gochie said:

Huh? My ruling is exactly the same as the official ruling, hence *Monocle Emoticon*. They don't maximize weapon damage, only STR bonus.

That’s weird. You’re right.  I was blind to that. Just presumed it was a foregone conclusion. It seemed pretty clear in the side bars of RQG that you should maximise main weapon damage on a crit. 

My mistake. Thanks for pointing that out. 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[gochie]

22 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

That’s weird. You’re right.  I was blind to that. Just presumed it was a foregone conclusion. It seemed pretty clear in the side bars of RQG that you should maximise main weapon damage on a crit. 

To be fair, I did nerf special damage to double rolled STR bonus, instead of rolled STR bonus + max STR bonus. 

I just don't see why a crush special would have max damage anything when the others don't. I'm sticking to the general recipe of double rolled damage on specials and double max damage on crits.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

I’m rolling up a Troll character, to hit things hard to see how this all lines up  

[g33k]

58 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I’m rolling up a Troll character, to hit things hard to see how this all lines up  

This.

The Crit/Special rules for Crushing weapons are meant, in part, to make Trolls particularly scary.

If you don't have a LOT of Strength to give a big ol' damage bonus, the Crushing weapons are dramatically less scary.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Ok we have an official  correction on the official answer.

Critical crush damage is now :

maximum rolled weapon damage + maximum damage bonus twice 

 

This is a hot topic, we’ll keep you posted as we get the latest. 

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Critical crush damage is now :

maximum rolled weapon damage + maximum damage bonus twice 

That is.... just a wild amount of damage. A dark troll with a +2D6 bonus automatically deals 40 damage on a crit with a maul, without magic. A great troll with +3D6 deals 52 (!), every time.

What's even crazier is Jason's ruling on True (weapon), which doubles the double damage from slashes/impales, effectively making it 4x damage. The great troll with a greatsword and True Sword deals between 67-82 damage on a crit, but only 68 damage with a maul and True Maul.

And get this, a lowby human with a greatsword, True Sword, and no STR bonus still deals 32 damage on a crit, every time.

So with true (weapon), a slashing or impaling weapon is still better for a troll than a crushing weapon.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

19 minutes ago, gochie said:

That is.... just a wild amount of damage. A dark troll with a +2D6 bonus automatically deals 40 damage on a crit with a maul, without magic. A great troll with +3D6 deals 52 (!), every time.

Big hitters! 
 

21 minutes ago, gochie said:

And get this, a lowby human with a greatsword, True Sword, and no STR bonus still deals 32 damage on a crit, every time.

Giant slaying damage. Still saving grace, if it hits a limb only x2 limbs hitpoints is going through to total hitpoints as damage (but the limb will be severed). 

Big things do big crushing damage, and crits are game changers particularly with true sword...it’s colourful 

[David Scott]

24 minutes ago, gochie said:

So with true (weapon), a slashing or impaling weapon is still better for a troll than a crushing weapon.

Fortunately few trolls if any will be wielding True Maul with as it's not a troll rune spell. Zorak Zorani have Crush instead, which is much more fun with a few stacked points. See the RQ Bestiary page 84.

30 minutes ago, gochie said:

That is.... just a wild amount of damage.

In my experience most damage over 15 points with no armour usually kills the kills the target outright or takes them out of a fight

[soltakss]

16 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately few trolls if any will be wielding True Maul with as it's not a troll rune spell. Zorak Zorani have Crush instead, which is much more fun with a few stacked points. See the RQ Bestiary page 84.

It used to be available to Karg, I think it was described in the Gloranthan Bestiary (RQ3) but could be wrong.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

It used to be available to Karg

I've just checked the latest CoG and ZZ is still an associate cult of Kargg, providing Crush.

[Akhôrahil]

This thing was finally sorted out!

(Max weapon damage) + (Max damage bonus) + (Rolled damage bonus)

This makes sense, is in accordance with what the rules actually say, and everything.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This thing was finally sorted out!

(Max weapon damage) + (Max damage bonus) + (Rolled damage bonus)

This makes sense, is in accordance with what the rules actually say, and everything.

 

 

Yes except its:

Max rolled weapon damage + Max DB + Max DB 

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Yes except its:

Max rolled weapon damage + Max DB + Max DB 

They have pretty clearly ruled that you don't max your DB on Slashing or Impaling, so it makes zero sense that you would on Crushing. I can't imagine that's the ruling.

[Thaz]

"If a critical crush is rolled it does the maximum crushing damage, which is twice the maximum damage bonus plus the maximum weapon damage."

Thats quote. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

They have pretty clearly ruled that you don't max your DB on Slashing or Impaling, so it makes zero sense that you would on Crushing. I can't imagine that's the ruling.

The double dam bonus along with the rolled weapon damage is the *special damage* that gets maximised in the case of crush. 
 

 

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

The double dam bonus along with the rolled weapon damage is the *special damage* that gets maximised in the case of crush. 

Except it's not. By other rulings, your "normal" damage bonus is not part of Special Damage - that's why you don't get maximized damage bonus on a slashing crit. By symmetry, only one instance of (maximized) damage bonus is part of the Crushing damage that gets maximized, and the second must be rolled as usual. It would be super weird if your regular damage bonus was maximized on a crushing crit but not on the slashing crit - where's that in the rules?

I think that's just a case of overly quick editing, because it has no textual support and isn't even consistent with the other rules.