Coastal Plain Heortland

[10baseT]

What would you say the coastal plain between the plateau and Choralinthor Bay is like terrain wise? Like Baja California with scrub, rock and some dunes, like Scotland's Balmoral/Aberdeen area, or more like Florida with grasses and mangroves? I'm trying to determine, if one were to settle there, what would they do. Maybe farm but not if the soil isn't fertile so maybe they herd sheep? I dont know. (I have Pelaskite fisherman in the marsh area but i'm thinking more of the coastal strip besides fisherman, if any). (i was inspired by the Tradetalk and TotRM sea articles/issues).

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, 10baseT said:

What would you say the coastal plain between the plateau and Choralinthor Bay is like terrain wise?

Do you mean around here?

[David Scott]

If so ,the actual coastal plain is not very big. Because of the salt marshes, I'd say somewhere like Elkhorn Slough in Monterey Bay.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/car-dump-and-elkhorn-slough-monterey-bay-high-res-stock-photography/148310102

(minus car dump)

http://www.elkhornslough.org/story/

and the nearby moss landing wildlife park

[jajagappa]

27 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Do you mean around here?

I thought he was referencing the areas highlighted in yellow here.  What's noted in the Guide p.245 "There is a narrow coastal strip which quickly gives way to thousand foot high cliffs ending at the plateau. Five rivers have cut gorges from the plateau top to the sea and these form the only access from shore to the upland farms."

The climate as a whole is noted on p.234: "The climate is generally warmer in the southwest, colder in the northeast. The western lowlands (Esrolia, Caladraland, and the Right Arm Islands) rarely get any snow, while snow is common in the Storm Mountains and the Heortland Plateau. The western lowlands get hot and humid in Fire Season, the eastern highlands are warm and dryer. Storm and Sea Seasons are wet throughout the Holy Country; each Sea Season brings the warm Heler rains from the Homeward Ocean."

Assuming it is this coastal strip, then it will be heavily affected by the dominant southwesterly winds that prevail from Sacred Time to late Earth Season (RQG p.110).  Unlike parts of Esrolia, there is no rain shadow here - it's going to get rain right and fogs off the Mirrorsea, and a lot of the rain will be dropped as the clouds climb the plateau (and leaving the highlands of Heortland drier).  My guess is that it is closest in vegetation to that of central/north Portugal or around coastal central California or central Chile (e.g. the Chilean matorral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_Matorral).  This part of Heortland should see wet, fertile, relatively warm with drier winters.  Lot of soil washed down from Stormwalk Mountains so fertile and good for farming.  Talls trees nestled in along cliff bases.  Maybe palm trees in the flats.  Choralinthor itself is fairly calm so there will be tidal flats and probably good dune systems.  

Edited August 20, 2018 by jajagappa

[10baseT]

Thank you both... and I did mean both of what you've shown, the narrow coastal areas in yellow and also the coastal area between Salt Point and the Vulari Peninsula. You both mentioned Cental CA areas, thank you, that really helps (and yes, minus the car dump lol). It helped me determine any potential fertile land for a small farm... (so you could do more than fish and salt pan).

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, 10baseT said:

so you could do more than fish and salt pan

Yes, should be some good farmland but you need crops that won't rot from the hot, humid, and rainy summer weather.  Citrus groves may work here.  And likely good for cattle grazing - less so for sheep.

[Julian Lord]

1 hour ago, 10baseT said:

Thank you both... and I did mean both of what you've shown, the narrow coastal areas in yellow

As for these, I've always envisioned these as certain European Mediterranean coastlines, such as some in Greece/Greek islands, the Estérel coast in South of France, or some small stretches as between Fréjus and Cannes, or Le Cinque Terre on the Italian Riviera.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Julian Lord

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, should be some good farmland but you need crops that won't rot from the hot, humid, and rainy summer weather.  Citrus groves may work here.  And likely good for cattle grazing - less so for sheep.

I live very close to Elkhorn Slough. It's excellent weather for lettuce, cabbage, asparagus, artichokes, melons,  and strawberries (the last a bit inland). It's called the Salad Bowl of California for a reason... On the north side of the bay it's a bit warmer and many people grow fruit or avocado in their lawns.

There are also a lot of cattle upland, but the county is full of livestock, including sheep, pigs, and goats.

Edited August 21, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[Joerg]

My assumption for Heortland landscapes (except for the Storm Mountain range) is generally based on Britain, with the Choralinthor coast something like the Channel coast (say Brighton or Penzance) below the Cliffs of Dover, the islands something like the Channel islands, and the uplands with bits of the Salisbury plain, east Anglia, and further up Yorkshire. Aberdeen or Edinburgh don't really figure much, although some of the dormant volcanism of the Edinburgh area may be quite appropriate the closer you come to the Leftarm Isles (geology-wise, not climate- or ecology-wise).

 

All of which follows are facts about my Glorantha that have accumulated over the last 24 years or so working on and off in that region.

 

The coast is quite verdant, even though the fluvial plain silt of the sea-level areas are covered by debris fallen off the cliffs and form a region of detritus with properties of karst.

The grazing on the rubble isn’t really suited for cattle IMG, but is fine for sheep.

Choralinthor bay is only brackish (thanks to the Skyfall) and extremely calm, but I don’t see much in the way of dominant reed areas between the Marzeel estuary and the Martof estuary.

 

Tidal action is a slow rise of water level over an average of a little over three days (but can be as little as one day and as much as six days), or twice a week, with slow, long tides rising a little higher up that than quick and short ones, and a rather dramatic rush of water out through Troll Strait when the Blue Moon plummets down Magasta’s Pool, with about 1.5 meters (5’) between high and low tide. This means that the tidal area is a lot more predictable than tidal areas on our planet. Lack of wave action means that salt-tolerant plants will have colonized the mud. This, too, makes excellent grazing for sheep. Occasional pockets of quicksand make this less suitable for cattle, again, although weeds harvested here are welcome winter fodder and salt-lick replacement for nearby cattle.

 

Coastal strips without any indication of tidal flats in the map have rather narrow bands of littoral area, but enough to attract water birds like oystercatchers. Above these bands, low dunes have formed, stabilized by beachgrass, wild roses, and heather, giving way to meadows, occasional marshy areas in depressions, and more heather where dunes have migrated inland. Trees tend to be rather short, and bent by the wind. Stunted pine, birch, hawthorne, willow, black alder dominate the strip closest to the coast, without any outright forested area, though some nigh impenetrable brush (impenetrability aided by blackberry vines, gorse, and rose thickets).

Cattle pasture and arable land vie or the same strips of the best soil, limiting either (since you need cattle for plowing). Seafood and sheep each contribute as much to the diet of the inhabitants down there as do farming and cattle-herding combined. A few areas are well suited for cabbage farming, much of which is traded for grain from the plateau.

 

The river estuary shore doesn’t have the dunes, although the debris fallen down from the cliffs still applies for the innermost band of land. The Leskos promontory and the Solthi estuary have the best farmland, whereas the Syphon estuary with its reversed flow doesn’t really profit from the fertile upland soil (which makes the middle Syphon valley rather rich in soil). Fluvial deposits add fatter tones to a moderate but significant layer of loess carried here from the glaciation of Peloria.

The Minthos estuary has only a rather narrow strip of arable land inside the debris belt, mainly fluvial sediment and less loess.

 

South of the Minthos area the Vulari peninsula is flanked by large areas of tidal plain. The dry lands are farmed, the wetlands serve as sheep pasture and gathering area for both sea-birds and the Pelaskites inhabiting the island sitting on the entrance to the Troll Straits. The eastern wetlands which receive tidal waters from the Rozgali rather than the brackish Choralinthor waters (the tidal inflow happens in the depths of Troll Strait, providing a mostly separate, more salty layer of water in the depths of Choralinthor covered by the brackish water fed by all the rivers).

 

The cliffs themselves are colonized by cave-dwelling sea-birds like tern, puffins on narrower ledges and even some gannets, boobies (the birds, stop being adolescent) or (flying) auks on wider ones, but not enough to warrant collection of guano except in small quantities (for dyeing or tanning).

 

The banks of the estuaries and the bays next to them are frequented by schools of herring which lay their eggs here in Sea Season. The coastal folk have built arrays of permanent fish-traps in passages where schools are likely to pass through, and fisherfolk from elsewhere join the local fisherfolk when these migrations occur. Out on the bay, mackerels, haddock and cod can be netted following these herring migrations.

These riches come in too early in the year to promote huge colonies of sea-birds – even if they start laying their eggs in late Storm Season, by the time their young need the most food, the plenty has gone again. Scenes like the feeding frenzy on the migration of sardines of South Africa are more likely south of Genert’s Wastes.

 

The chalky cliffs offer access to high quality flint, some of which is even traded (transported as ballast to Corflu, from where it is carried into Prax) where not domestically used, but Shadow Plateau obsidian is plentiful and dominates the market for mineral blades west of the plains of Prax.

Bog iron exists, but not as a mineral/metal resource, rather as a nuisance for farming whetre it forms near impenetrable layers of rock in sandy soil. Some of this is quarried and used for architecture. In some places, this is washed out as ochre, which does get traded as pigment.

Around Vizel, Esvulari have built up an industry from producing caustic lime from the debris falling off the cliffs, using charcoal shipped down the Martof and Minthos rivers from the Storm Mountain foothills.

In Storm Season, Pelaskite beachcombers will be on the lookout for nuggets of seametal and pieces of amber that may have been washed ashore by storms on the southern shores, though not inside the Troll Strait.

[Joerg]

Here are a few images to illustrate my text above.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischzaun#/media/File:Heringszaun_Kappeln2008.jpg

The fish fence of Kappeln, in the Schlei "estuary" (the Schlei is a brackish fjord rather than a river, although a few small rivers or creeks drain into it.) Similar narrows can be found in a number of the estuaries of Heortland, making this a speciality of the local Pelaskite Orlanthi not found elsewhere around the Choralinthor Bay. The people inhabiting the tidal flats e.g. around the Vulari peninsula and the Rightarm and Leftarm archipelago might use fish gardens like this:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischzaun#/media/File:Fischgarten_Modell.jpg

In case you think such constructs are too modern - there have been finds of Ertebølle (aka Køkkenmøddinger) mesolithic constructions similar to this in Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein, and those guys are a big influence on my idea of the Pelaskites, along with the separate fishing communities next to the cities that sprung up in the region, some of which still persist (like the Schleswig Holm, or the "city" of Arnis).

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

My assumption for Heortland landscapes (except for the Storm Mountain range) is generally based on Britain, with the Choralinthor coast something like the Channel coast (say Brighton or Penzance) below the Cliffs of Dover, the islands something like the Channel islands, and the uplands with bits of the Salisbury plain, east Anglia, and further up Yorkshire. Aberdeen or Edinburgh don't really figure much, although some of the dormant volcanism of the Edinburgh area may be quite appropriate the closer you come to the Leftarm Isles (geology-wise, not climate- or ecology-wise).

 

I don't see Heortland looking much at all like Britain. I'd say Monterey Bay and the South Coastal Range or Point Reyes and the North Coastal Range are a much better feel, although Heortland is likely much wetter.

[Julian Lord]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

My assumption for Heortland landscapes (except for the Storm Mountain range) is generally based on Britain, with the Choralinthor coast something like the Channel coast (say Brighton or Penzance) below the Cliffs of Dover, the islands something like the Channel islands, and the uplands with bits of the Salisbury plain, east Anglia, and further up Yorkshire. Aberdeen or Edinburgh don't really figure much, although some of the dormant volcanism of the Edinburgh area may be quite appropriate the closer you come to the Leftarm Isles (geology-wise, not climate- or ecology-wise).

That manner of warm, wet weather seems IMO to be more appropriate for Maniria, where the Heler rains are dominant, than south of Sartar and West of Prax.

Geographically even, let alone mythically, the Shadow Plateau forces the southern rain winds into Dragon Pass, whereas the rains heading eastwards fall principally into the fertile lands of Esrolia and the Choralinthor coastlands as the waters seek to return back to Magasta's Pool.

The waters flowing into those coastlands are far weaker, with the one notable exception flowing uphill rather than down (fresh water not salt btw, except of course near to the estuary), and most good rains are from the less waterous Orlanth winds from Sartar, whereas the region is frequently swept by the harsh dry Urox winds from the Block region, and all the ills that they may carry with them randomly.

But the Orlanth Storm is still dominant, and so it usually prevents the violent oceanic rains drenching that area, though these are the source of some occasionally VERY wet spells of weather on that coastline as the war between the Flood and the Storm is reenacted seasonally.

Even Caladraland is far rainier, as the Orlanth Storm has not the same strength.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Julian Lord

[jeffjerwin]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't see Heortland looking much at all like Britain. I'd say Monterey Bay and the South Coastal Range or Point Reyes and the North Coastal Range are a much better feel, although Heortland is likely much wetter.

We get a lot of fog most of the year. It doesn't rain very often but it's quite damp. I have to keep a dehumidifier going.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't see Heortland looking much at all like Britain. I'd say Monterey Bay and the South Coastal Range or Point Reyes and the North Coastal Range are a much better feel, although Heortland is likely much wetter.

I have never been anywhere near Monterey Bay or San Francisco, but from what I could google in images, I think I will continue to disagree. What I see from Point Reyes, maybe, although that too is more like a ridge reaching out to the sea shore, and not at all like a plateau.

Where is the plateau above the cliffs?

I still see the cliffs of Dover, but separated from the beach by a stretch of land as can be found on the Channel coast. Few if any rocky stretches of coast, instead beaches almost as far as you can look. When there is bedrock jutting out of the area, those are isolated, rounded heads of former volcanoes or rare ridges embedded in the mostly soft earth.

Other seaside cliffs with plateaus above are e.g. the Cliffs of Mohare, or Helgoland. Both are way too red for my impression of Heortland, however.

All of these cliffs lack the strip of coastal flats, but that's only a problem of current sea levels - 5000 years ago they had coastal plains. (Although Helgoland didn't have steep cliffs then, but was a rather large rocky landmass in the coastal plain.)

 

 

Wetter than the Pacific coast north and south of San Francisco. Ok.

Really?

4 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

That manner of warm, wet weather seems IMO to be more appropriate for Maniria, where the Heler rains are dominant, than south of Sartar and West of Prax.

Too wet? I don't think so. Remember Bingista, the Good Wind? That would be a southerly or southwesterly wind from the confluence of the Rozgali and Solkathi currents coming in across the Rightarm Isles and rising against the Storm Mountains.

People worship Heler not just where his arrival is guaranteed, but also where it is not that guaranteed and needs to be reinforced by sacrifice.

IIRC someone placed a sacred place to Heler in the Heortland Plateau, in Storm Tribe.

 

If I look at the clothing we are getting for the Sartarites who live six to eight degrees Celsius colder in the uplands (assuming the barometric height fomula is somehow reciprocated by a bundle of myths figuring Inora, the Middle Air pushing away the hot sky, etc.), and at the clothing (or lack thereof) suggested for the Rightarm Islanders who are more exposed to sea winds than anybody in the region, I don't see why the coastal strip of Heortland should be comparable to Viking or Baltic environments.

 

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Geographically even, let alone mythically, the Shadow Plateau forces the southern rain winds into Dragon Pass, whereas the rains heading eastwards fall principally into the fertile lands of Esrolia and the Choralinthor coastlands as the waters seek to return back to Magasta's Pool.

Today must be the day that I argue weather patterns...

The gap between Arrowmound and the Shadow Plateau is about 50 miles wide (along the Building Wall). The gap between the Backwind Marsh and the Storm Mountains is at least 80 miles wide, the plateau itself about 60 miles.

Most of the western gap lies behind the rain barrier of the Caladraland chain, and especially its highest peak, the Vent. East of the Vent there are no significant elevations before you get to the Heortland cliff.

 

A lot of the Dragon Pass rainfall is caused by the Skyfall and bits of it drifting off. The Gorphing and Malthin rivers are very low-lying, slow and wide rivers, not very alive, while the Marzeel, Solthi, Bullflood and Minthos/Martof rivers are fairly active rivers. While the catchment area for the Esrolian rivers is bigger, water retention in the area is much higher.

The Storm Mountains offer snow melt which even feeds southeastern Prax and the Devil's Marsh reliably throughout the year - the Good Canal is in no way a seasonal waterway. I think that we can safely assume a healthy amount of rainfall in years of untampered weather.

The drought encountered by Harmast Barefoot was caused by Lokamayadon chaining the Orlanth winds, a situation that has been named in the same breath as the Windstop. It affected Heortland and Esrolia around Nochet alike, from what I read of Greg's Harmast Saga chapters.

 

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The waters flowing into those coastlands are far weaker,

Not quite the impression I get from the 924 travelogue of the land of the Hendriki, History of the Heortling Peoples p.62 (which also offers a quite verbose description of Leskos):

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Durengard is a settlement at the end of the Uxeler inlet, built just below where the fast moving Uxeler River tumbles into the sea

A fast moving river, even if not really navigable for anything but river barges upwards of the rapids, and wide and deep enough for the Slontan turtle barges below it,  doesn't indicate low rainfall to me. It rather reminds me of the conditions along the Norwegian coast.

Likewise, Jansholm lies on a fortified island inside the Solthi River a fair bit inland of the estuary, again indicating a significant amount of water coming down from the Storm Hills.

 

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with the one notable exception flowing uphill rather than down (fresh water not salt btw, except of course near to the estuary),

The brackish nature of the Syphon may of course be diluted by creeks draining into it, but given the extent of the Fish Road all the way to Backford, I would expect Triolini-friendly salt levels at least up to there. There is a possibility that the Syphon draws on the deeper, saltier underlayer of the bay rather than the surface waters which used to be dominated by the outflow of the Creekstream River, but nowadays are fed only by maybe a quarter of that amount still seeping through the Styx Grotto and whatever the Marzeel and Solthi contribute. The majority of the sweetwater overlay has moved to the Lyksos estuary since Belintar dug the New River.

 

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and most good rains are from the less waterous Orlanth winds from Sartar, whereas the region is frequently swept by the harsh dry Urox winds from the Block region, and all the ills that they may carry with them randomly.

To be honest, I don't think that the Eternal Battle comes that close to the Storm Mountains very often, and the main Storm Bull Storm usually hovers around the ruins of Genert's Palace far out in the Wastes.

The dry Urox winds also bring warm air, and that will cause thaws high up in the Storm Mountains, feeding the rivers, and Storm Season is fairly certain to replenish the snow cover up there.

The Thunder Rebels seasonal storms cover Dragon Pass, and claim that the main rainfall brought by Ohorlanth comes in from the northwest. That humidity must have been picked up from far outside the Inner World, and carried high up through the Middle Air. The Heler Storms come in in Fire Season, with Earth Season being mostly dry.

And that's where I suspect Bingista, the Good Wind that was suppressed by the Zistorites, to come in.

 

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But the Orlanth Storm is still dominant, and so it usually prevents the violent oceanic rains drenching that area, though these are the source of some occasionally VERY wet spells of weather on that coastline as the war between the Flood and the Storm is reenacted seasonally.

 

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Even Caladraland is far rainier, as the Orlanth Storm has not the same strength.

The rain falling over Caladraland is rain not passing through the Building Wall gap.

I figure that much of the Esrolian lowlands requires irrigation for much of the growing season, and that there are many reservoirs that get refilled by the seasonal rains on both sides of Sacred Time.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't see Heortland looking much at all like Britain. I'd say Monterey Bay and the South Coastal Range or Point Reyes and the North Coastal Range are a much better feel, although Heortland is likely much wetter.

@Joerg, my system for figuring this out what geography Is relevant is based on what we know of how Greg worked out what the geography was like. Greg based a lot of stuff on what he knew best- where he lived. Google salt marshes California and Monterey Bay pops up. 

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

We get a lot of fog most of the year. It doesn't rain very often but it's quite damp. I have to keep a dehumidifier going.

Oh I remember the fog and the damp well - I grew up near SF and have family in Carmel.

[Julian Lord]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Too wet? I don't think so. Remember Bingista, the Good Wind? That would be a southerly or southwesterly wind from the confluence of the Rozgali and Solkathi currents coming in across the Rightarm Isles and rising against the Storm Mountains.

People worship Heler not just where his arrival is guaranteed, but also where it is not that guaranteed and needs to be reinforced by sacrifice.

IIRC someone placed a sacred place to Heler in the Heortland Plateau, in Storm Tribe.

The Good Wind isn't really much of a rain-bearing one, but though I've suggested that few of the Heler rains from out of Maniria reach that area, of course some of them do.

Remember, all of the winds, even (rarely) the Urox one, can be rain-bearing, depending on how the rain clouds can get about, but even though these weather questions are roughly emulative of meteorological reality, the actual weather is still regulated more by magic than materiality.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Today must be the day that I argue weather patterns...

The gap between Arrowmound and the Shadow Plateau is about 50 miles wide (along the Building Wall). The gap between the Backwind Marsh and the Storm Mountains is at least 80 miles wide, the plateau itself about 60 miles.

Most of the western gap lies behind the rain barrier of the Caladraland chain, and especially its highest peak, the Vent. East of the Vent there are no significant elevations before you get to the Heortland cliff.

I don't think these are much relevant I'm afraid -- mythically, the Manirian Heler rains want to fertilise the fields of Esrolia, or else want to head up into Dragon Pass, or else want to fall into the Choralinthor Bay and into the waters of the Eternal Return.

My point about the Shadow Plateau isn't that it's an elevation, it's that it's a place deeply hostile to all outsiders, including being hostile to the life-bringing rains. Contrary to Caladraland, which absolutely loves and welcomes them.

Conversely, rather than repelling or blocking the rains, the more northerly Orlanth Storm and the mountain at Kero Fin and the highlands of Sartar act as magnets to the rain winds, drawing them thither. Elevations will either block or repel or attract rain winds more from the magic and the myth rather than following any rules of our own common sense.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

A lot of the Dragon Pass rainfall is caused by the Skyfall and bits of it drifting off.

Fundamentally, at least from a Sartari point of view, the rain clouds gathering around the Skyfall are Heler rains, and within the specific mythology of the Heler cult, that wound is a grievous wound that was dealt to Heler in the Gods War.

Most (but not all) of the rainfall in Dragon Pass is either from the southern rain coming from Maniria or from the scattering of the flocks of rainclouds by the Orlanth Storm. That scattering does mean that some clouds or even small flocks might be captured by some of the normally non-rainmaking winds, and so be blown and then fall elsewhere than these magical patterns would expect.

That area of very southerly coastal Heortland is a recipient of westerly Manirian rainfall far lighter than in Sartar, as well as of some rains carried in by storms from the north or from some more minor northerly and even perhaps easterly winds occasionally rainbearing.

Though the more southerly and easterly winds from the ocean and the desert are not typically cloudbearing, nor particularly strong, though some few dry sirocco-like storms from the desert can certainly blow in to cover everything in dust.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not quite the impression I get from the 924 travelogue of the land of the Hendriki, History of the Heortling Peoples p.62 (which also offers a quite verbose description of Leskos):

A fast moving river, even if not really navigable for anything but river barges upwards of the rapids, and wide and deep enough for the Slontan turtle barges below it,  doesn't indicate low rainfall to me. It rather reminds me of the conditions along the Norwegian coast.

Likewise, Jansholm lies on a fortified island inside the Solthi River a fair bit inland of the estuary, again indicating a significant amount of water coming down from the Storm Hills.

Look, when I say those small rivers are not strong, it's in comparison to the mighty CreekStream River and the powerfully waterous river systems, milder perhaps in temperament but deep in hidden strength, of the Esrolian plains and the Manirian hills and valleys.

I also mean that they are not magically very strong waterways, with that single notable exception - their river magic is relatively weak.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

To be honest, I don't think that the Eternal Battle comes that close to the Storm Mountains very often, and the main Storm Bull Storm usually hovers around the ruins of Genert's Palace far out in the Wastes.

The Eternal Battle is a particular exception, not typical of the Urox winds generally.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

I figure that much of the Esrolian lowlands requires irrigation for much of the growing season, and that there are many reservoirs that get refilled by the seasonal rains on both sides of Sacred Time.

Rain is seemingly neverending throughout the year in Maniria, think Wales or Germany, and as for Esrolia specifically it can spill over into the weather there at any time of year, even outside of the typical seasonal patterns. Locally, in some years the Fire Season can be a wet year or a dry year, depending on whether Elmal or Heler is dominant that year magically with Ernalda.

A little bit of that does manage to get across the bay to Heortland. A lot more during the Sea Season than at other times, and a dry year in Esrolia probably means a warmer drier summer in those coastlands, relieved typically by more northerly rain weather from south-bearing summer storms.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Julian Lord

[Joerg]

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

I don't think these are much relevant I'm afraid -- mythically, the Manirian Heler rains want to fertilise the fields of Esrolia, or else want to head up into Dragon Pass, or else want to fall into the Choralinthor Bay and into the waters of the Eternal Return.

And what tells you that they don't want to fall onto the Heortland plateau then? Just curious.

 

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

My point about the Shadow Plateau isn't that it's an elevation, it's that it's a place deeply hostile to all outsiders, including being hostile to the life-bringing rains. Contrary to Caladraland, which absolutely loves and welcomes them.

Shadow Plateau is the biggest eruption of Veskarthan in the region, IMO the one that created the Stone Wood. It is the ultimate wedding of skyfire to the deep earth as Veskarthan's feathered spear was thrust deep into the earth.

I don't see anything intrinsically hostile here, not any more than at the Vent.

Later on, Argan Argar wrestled with Veskarthan as he led his band of Uz up to the surface world. Argan Argar won, shore off the top of the phallic mountain with the spear, and made Veskarthan build a much more intricate structure, the Obsidian Palace. Afterwards, this became the birthplace of the Only Old One, first of the Kitori, the love child of surface Darkness and the fertile earth, and the future benevolent ruler of the region.

There is only one thing that the Shadow Plateau defends against - the direct light from the sun high up in the sky. The shadows probably love it when the rain clouds join their effort.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Conversely, rather than repelling or blocking the rains, the more northerly Orlanth Storm and the mountain at Kero Fin and the highlands of Sartar act as magnets to the rain winds, drawing them thither. Elevations will either block or repel or attract rain winds more from the magic and the myth rather than following any rules of our own common sense.

So what makes the Storm or Stormwalk Mountains, the chain from Sambari Pass to Bandori Valley, less of a rain magnet?

The fight against Worcha is about the Trembling Shore, and may have left the cliffs marking the south of Prax and the Wastes, separating them from the belt of salt marshes extending almost all the way to Teshnos.

 

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Fundamentally, at least from a Sartari point of view, the rain clouds gathering around the Skyfall are Heler rains, and within the specific mythology of the Heler cult, that wound is a grievous wound that was dealt to Heler in the Gods War.

That's a case of myth-appropriation (pun intended). Heler and Lorion/Engizi are distinct entities, and unlike Heler, Engizi never lost his roots in the Deep.

I wonder whether Heler bears an enmity to the durulz - the reason for the war between the waters and the keets of Ganderland sounds pretty much like the separation of Heler from the Deep. The name is different, of course.

 

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Most (but not all) of the rainfall in Dragon Pass is either from the southern rain coming from Maniria or from the scattering of the flocks of rainclouds by the Orlanth Storm.

Consulting Thunder Rebels, the major rainfall is brought by Ohorlanth. Heler is the somewhat unseasonable but agriculturally required Fire Season rain. A rainfall the Esrolian lowlands can easiliy do without, using irrigation.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

That scattering does mean that some clouds or even small flocks might be captured by some of the normally non-rainmaking winds, and so be blown and then fall elsewhere than these magical patterns would expect.

That area of very southerly coastal Heortland is a recipient of westerly Manirian rainfall far lighter than in Sartar, as well as of some rains carried in by storms from the north or from some more minor northerly and even perhaps easterly winds occasionally rainbearing.

In other words, Heler's rains stop at the Vent and don't continue across Esrola's arms?

Checking the maps starting at p.662 in the Guide, apart from Dark Season there is a constant "good wind" blowing in around the Vent up into the Marzeel Valley. Instead, we have Valind blizzards from the north. Storm Season has unpredictable storms from all directions, all bringing precipitation, except maybe the occasional Gagarth stuff clashing with the Quivin mountains.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Though the more southerly and easterly winds from the ocean and the desert are not typically cloudbearing, nor particularly strong, though some few dry sirocco-like storms from the desert can certainly blow in to cover everything in dust.

Easterly winds would be caused by the Urox storm, which will take over in the neighborhood to the Doldrums moving west in Earth Season. They may still drive clouds before them - clouds that got lost above the Wastes, and now get driven against the Storm Mountains.

 

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Look, when I say those small rivers are not strong, it's in comparison to the mighty CreekStream River

Not even the Oslir (the far end of the ancient primal river) can compare to the primal modern river.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

and the powerfully waterous river systems, milder perhaps in temperament but deep in hidden strength, of the Esrolian plains and the Manirian hills and valleys.

Malthin and Gorphing are fat, but tame and rather sluggish rivers, tapped for reservoirs and irrigation ditches along their length. They benefit more from the Mislari runoff than from western Caladraland, and not at all from eastern Caladraland around the Vent.

Marzeel, Solthi, Bullflood and Minthos/Martof are agile rivers that have carved out the deep river gorges and widening estuaries of Heortland, both coming in from the Sea before Sky River Titan's fight with Korang the Slayer, and reversing their courses after that, but carrying out the stuff they carved towards the Deep even when they still were feeling their way up the Storm Mountains.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

I also mean that they are not magically very strong waterways, with that single notable exception - their river magic is relatively weak.

If you want to say that they don't contribute much to the fertility of their land, that's probably true. I don't see them as any weaker than Sounder's River, though, and that's the river that keeps leeching away the chaotic regrowth of the Devil under the Block.

Neither the Heortland rivers nor the Esrolian rivers were much of anything when Choralinthor was reduced to a puddle. Creek and Stream leapt down from the heavens when their brother had been wounded. The Creek may actually be fed by some clound split-off from the Skyfall in the Indigo Mountains, the Stream is rather far from Skyfall Lake. It may be related to the Chorms and have taken over its lower riverbed between modern Wilmskirk and the confluence now in the Upland Marsh.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

Rain is seemingly neverending throughout the year in Maniria, think Wales or Germany,

Last summer (when that description was more than apt and my lawn was a swamp) or this year (when the lawn had a mostly brown color)?

I haven't spent that much time in Wales, but I am fairly familiar with rainfall in coastal Germany. Usually it isn't that wet in summer, moderately wet in spring, and shitty in late autumn and winter (which occasionally has snow rather than rain).

Weather conditions in Sartar are warmer than what we get, though, judging from the dress we get for the Sartarites - possibly Provencal rather than Burgundy. Prax (when it isn't the Great Plains) probably resembles the Estremadura.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

and as for Esrolia specifically it can spill over into the weather there at any time of year, even outside of the typical seasonal patterns. Locally, in some years the Fire Season can be a wet year or a dry year, depending on whether Elmal or Heler is dominant that year magically with Ernalda.

Locally, the ditches may be used for draining the fields rather than irrigating them in the Heler summers.

53 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

A little bit of that does manage to get across the bay to Heortland. A lot more during the Sea Season than at other times, and a dry year in Esrolia probably means a warmer drier summer in those coastlands, relieved typically by more northerly rain weather from south-bearing summer storms.

Caladraland never gets that dry, does it? The westerly winds that blow (not that strongly) towards the doldrums (which move across Magasta's Pool in Fire and Earth Season) are directly pushed towards the cliffs of northern Heortland in the maps on the pages 662-664. If the Gloranthan clouds resist rising up by dropping rain like they do in the real world, the cliff coast ought to be quite humid.

Whether the fog forms is a different question, and also which fog. Huraya's Scarf of Mist is positive, while Iphara's murder fog is anything but positive.

I wonder how much fog floating up from the water surface would be seen as a rebirth of Heler ('s children), and when such mist is regarded as fog, and when as low-hanging cloud. From wandering on Skye (the name meaning cloud-island), there is a difference to the thick stuff that crawled in on Lands End on my return (on bike) from that landmark (where I still had a nice view outward, and I wouldn't have wanted to miss that experience, either).

 

[jeffjerwin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

Whether the fog forms is a different question, and also which fog. Huraya's Scarf of Mist is positive, while Iphara's murder fog is anything but positive.

 

If the Monterey Bay is part of the behind the scenes to this, it's thick, low-visibility, and charges in from the Ocean. It's not ideal for driving... and can be a little unnervingly fast.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Despite the climate in Choralinthor bay being usually presented as either mediterranean or even subtropic, I can't help but envision the coastlands of Hendrikiland as similar to western Norway (bear with me, it's not all glaciers and snow), except with a more even escarpment and following plateau than rows of alpine mountains, and with rivers rather than fjords (although the latter two are not mutually exclusive).

This brings me visions of pebbly, sandy flats and hills, a steady, fairly mild wind, areas that are good for grazing cattle and sheep, but the actual grazeable territory being limited by wetlands and marshy deltas or hollows. It also means a more temperate, yet largely snow-free climate (but lots of rain), with significant loss in warmth as soon as one climbs the escarpment.

This is of course just my geographical  bias talking, but hey, we work with the mental references we have. The difference between the glacier-shaped lands of Norway might not work too well with this landscape though, which seems unaffected by any ice age (or ice age mythical equivalent) just your standard water erosion on otherwise hard rock.

Another possible similarity might be the coastal land in southern South Africa, such as around Cape Town, which is nestled under the Great Escarpment with cattle-grazing highlands above.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Despite the climate in Choralinthor bay being usually presented as either mediterranean or even subtropic, I can't help but envision the coastlands of Hendrikiland as similar to western Norway (bear with me, it's not all glaciers and snow), except with a more even escarpment and following plateau than rows of alpine mountains, and with rivers rather than fjords (although the latter two are not mutually exclusive).

To be honest, part of my description in my first reply to this thread was based on my experiences in Nordland, specifically the Vestfjord beach of Steigen peninsula which has about a mile of lowland before a steep rise (lacking the upland plateau, but having more than its share of boulders and smaller rubble that must have fallen down some time after the last glaciation.

Much of the geology of the Caledonian orogenesis which has shaped the Norwegian coastal range is completely wrong for Heortland, of course. The Heortland coast wasn't glacially shaped (odds are that significant parts of the uplands were, though, by smaller glaciers extending down from the Storm and Quivin mountains). Thryk the Ice Giant and his hollri friends in action.

Chances are that the west-facing cliffs were initially cut out by the Blue Dragon River invading Kethaela (and later Dara Happa). The subsequent Thrinbarri struggles during the Flood may have pushed the cliff line back to the current position, or maybe one or a few of the assaults of Worcha did reach this far in. All of that was before the good relationship between Faralinthor and Esrola, if those God Learner maps are to be trusted (and I have reasons to doubt the veracity of the sequence of the watery invasions as shown in the Guide - remember that those maps are an in-world document compiled by the God Learners who had limited understanding of the region's pre-history).

The bedrock of the entire region consists of layers of sedimentary rock (sandstone, chalk, dolomite) IMO formed when the Earth Cube still was submerged in the Seas, like world-scale mother of pearl. That would explain the fossils of marine organisms found e.g. in the caves of Snake Pipe Hollow.

Interspersed with this are the volcanic and tectonic rises caused by the two mountain fathers, Larnste and Veskarthan.

Veskarthan appears to have found rather variated types of rock deep down in the earth, with Shadow Plateau being a very "sour" (silica-rich) type of volcanic rock while other places like Quivin appear to be basic basalt (silica-poor). Larnste had mountain seeds and the force of his foot.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This brings me visions of pebbly, sandy flats and hills, a steady, fairly mild wind, areas that are good for grazing cattle and sheep, but the actual grazeable territory being limited by wetlands and marshy deltas or hollows. It also means a more temperate, yet largely snow-free climate (but lots of rain), with significant loss in warmth as soon as one climbs the escarpment.

Exactly where I come from. I added loess because of the huge dry glaciation of the Vingkotling Age with lots of wind-pushed small debris ending up further south. Lowland Tarsh and Saird are blessed by various thickness of loess soil, too. Earth and Storm pulling fertility from the hostile advance of Valind's Glacier.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is of course just my geographical  bias talking, but hey, we work with the mental references we have. The difference between the glacier-shaped lands of Norway might not work too well with this landscape though, which seems unaffected by any ice age (or ice age mythical equivalent) just your standard water erosion on otherwise hard rock.

Yep. The estuaries are river gorges, possibly formed by meltoff from the local glaciation when those rivers were waking up mightily. The island of Jansholm may well be a lump of basalt, marble or other much harder rock that the Solthi failed to wash away that easily.

For the Bullflood rapids not to have migrated further backwards within history, there must be a very calm stretch somewhere above those rapids where the detritus carried down from the Storm Mountains gets a chance to sediment. Real world examples for steady state waterfalls with very little erosion thanks to a sedimentation basin include the Niagara falls and the Rhine falls at Schaffhausen.

Such a calm zone will of course have a mythical reason - a conflict between the bullflood and one of the local deities (likely a storm brother, or a son of the bull).

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Another possible similarity might be the coastal land in southern South Africa, such as around Cape Town, which is nestled under the Great Escarpment with cattle-grazing highlands above.

Thanks for pointing that out. My next best real world parallel after the Vestfjord coast was the coast at Gibraltar when the last (pure) Neanderthals faded out in that region about 30,000 years ago.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Despite the climate in Choralinthor bay being usually presented as either mediterranean or even subtropic, I can't help but envision the coastlands of Hendrikiland as similar to western Norway (bear with me, it's not all glaciers and snow), except with a more even escarpment and following plateau than rows of alpine mountains, and with rivers rather than fjords (although the latter two are not mutually exclusive).

And very similar in appearance to what I saw first-hand in Iceland a week back - tall escarpments with low, flat coastal plains immediately around or between.

 

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

And what tells you that they don't want to fall onto the Heortland plateau then? Just curious.

I'll second that question.  I see no barriers to the rains falling as the clouds climb up the Heortland plateau towards the Stormwalk Mountains.  There's no rain shadow (unlike in Esrolia around Nochet) from southwesterly winds, which are what is noted in RQG as predominant from Seaseason through Earthseason.

[Steve]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Chances are that the west-facing cliffs were initially cut out by the Blue Dragon River invading Kethaela (and later Dara Happa).

Wasn't the shaping of features like in Glorantha this done by mythic means rather than real-world geological ones? Mountains were typically raised mythically, so surely the same would hold true for coastlines (not withstanding later flooding)?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Yes, and the invasion of the blue dragon (Aroka, iirc) is a mythic event that occured sometimed during the Storm Age, I think. Not sure if this Blue Dragon is the same as the one that eventually turned into the Oslira, but that's not the topic of this thread, I suppose.

[Joerg]

31 minutes ago, Steve said:

Wasn't the shaping of features like in Glorantha this done by mythic means rather than real-world geological ones? Mountains were typically raised mythically, so surely the same would hold true for coastlines (not withstanding later flooding)?

I was talking about a blue dragon river invading the land. The one ripped apart a bit further uphill, at Aroka Lake north of the Creek. Is that mythical enough?

Choralinthor and his father Faralinthor suffered from being dried out. Faralinthor was officially slain by Vadrus (originally Umath) before his waters disappeared in the dry spell of the Ice Age when Valind conquered much of the north.

The impending Great Flood of 1650 has been treated as a rise in water levels, without any mythic action to it. It may have been an epic feat for trolls and merfolk to gnaw off that much of the glacier, but there is nothing mythical about it. But then, this may be fine, setting the theme for the next Age of Glorantha.

 

Look at the Ice Age down here in Quivinela and the Storm Mountains. I don't have much in the way of physical evidence for that glaciation - Inora's snow cover on the peaks would be ok, too - but I do have a myth about Thryk the Winter Giant attacking Orlanth's lands, and having been overcome.

The Storm Mountains have a double origin - as children of Veskarthan lining up from Quivin down to the Leftarm Isles, but also being pushed up by Larnste's Footprint impact.

 

I used to have trouble imagining how uphill-flowing rivers would deposit sediment. Then I realized that it was wrong to regard these rivers just as a linear flow of water. They were alive, liquid organisms with a complex body structure, tendrils sent out from the seas to discover and deliver the riches of the dry land that have been unavailable ever since Bab aka Gata finally rose out of the bosom of the seas. At the same time, I am sticking to the pearl-in-an-oyster analogy to account for the oldest layers of marine sediments on the earth. This gives me a very long "geological history" without having to fit it into the Green and Golden Age. Bab was both the food born and grown from the Spike, and the intruder that had to be cysted away by the Sea.

The Godtime rivers flowing uphill were like the tentacles of a medusa, and they fed on the good stuff they encountered carving into the dry land, leading it on downriver into the seas and oceans, where they would deposit the matter separated from the good magical stuff as sediment. Voila, uphill flowing rivers, and still a geography and geology that would be familiar.

You don't have to agree with this approach, but it works fine for me.