Maximum POW

[Mechashef]

On Pages 52 and 417 it states that the maximum value for a characteristic (excluding magical enhancements) is the maximum amount rollable on the characteristic dice, plus the number of dice.

For humans this equates to 21: (3D6 = 18) + (3 Dice = 3) = 21 or (2D6 + 6 = 18) + (2 Dice + the add of 6 counts as one additional die) = 21

 

However in the last paragraph in the section describing the characteristic of Power on Page 52, I states:

Quote

POW cannot normally rise above the total of the maximum possible rolled POW plus the minimum possible rolled POW, normally 21 for humans.

 

While this difference in terminology does not have an effect for humans, it would for other races.

 

I presume the Max Rollable + Min Rollable is simply a hang over from a previous version of RQ (such as RQ3) and should be ignored?

 

Thanks

 

[Joerg]

The 2D6+6 stats are non-raisable through training.

The effect on other races' stats is most likely intended.

[jps]

I don’t see any difference between both: Max rollable + number of dice or Max + Min, sound the same to me given that the minimum a die can show is 1 I can see no difference between number of dice and minimum.

[Mechashef]

6 minutes ago, jps said:

I don’t see any difference between both: Max rollable + number of dice or Max + Min, sound the same to me given that the minimum a die can show is 1 I can see no difference between number of dice and minimum.

It can make quite a difference.  Page 52 (and also Page 6 of the Bestiary) makes it clear that the rules also apply to non-humans.  

Green Elves (for example) have a Pow of 2D6+6.

Using the formula of Max rollable plus the number of dice gives 18+3=21. (i.e two rolls of 6, plus 6 and then 3 for the number of dice)

Using Max rollable plus Min rollable gives 18+8=26. (i.e two rolls of 6, plus 6 and then two rolls of 1, plus 6)

 

[jps]

I see, in case of a bonus. Funny I’ve always considered (wrongly I admit) the minimum rollable being about the dice. I think the number of dice is intentional (I didn’t check but considering every +6 as an extra die is logical too).

[Mechashef]

I think (hope) if Pow was meant to be an exception to the other stats it wold have been explicitly mentioned as being an exception in the blanket statements of how the maximum value is calculated.  As it is only mentioned in one place (that I have spotted), I'm assuming that is a "typo" (or perhaps a "cut and pasto")  but there are probably people here who know better than I do.

[PhilHibbs]

I've always used +1 per +6 or fraction thereof, so 3D6, 2D6+6, and 1D6+12 would all have max 21. By the book, 1D6+12 has max 20.

[Videopete]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I've always used +1 per +6 or fraction thereof, so 3D6, 2D6+6, and 1D6+12 would all have max 21. By the book, 1D6+12 has max 20.

nope, the +6 and +12 both count as a single die, heck +100 is a single die. Its any addition counts as one die.

That said it does say both maxroll +dice=species maximum. And Maxroll+Miniroll=Species Maximum. So yeah FAQ/Errata This quick.

[Mechashef]

17 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I've always used +1 per +6 or fraction thereof, so 3D6, 2D6+6, and 1D6+12 would all have max 21. By the book, 1D6+12 has max 20.

Your approach seems reasonable (and I suspect that is how many people have interpreted it).

I suspect you are also right in that by the book 1D6+12 should be a max of 20.

But as written, P52 would have that as a max of 31 (assuming it is Pow).

Edited September 26, 2018 by Mechashef
To make it clear I was referring to 1D6+12

[womble]

I'd count each +6 (or part thereof) as a die for the purposes of counting how many dice were rolled. And I believe that "min plus max rollable" is an overgeneralisation that works for pure dice, but not for stats that use adds.

Species maximum for INT and SIZ (for humans) that can't normally be increased by training/experience is still relevant (as is the general principle, for non-human characters that have improvable stats which include adds as well as dice); Bless Pregnancy lets you add points to any stat for the progeny of the Blessed pregnancy, but only up to the racial maximum. Personally, I'd be inclined to require the caster to specify what stats the stack points are going to be assigned to before they roll (so there's a fair chance of wastage if there's a lot of Rune Points behind it). There may be other occasions where the stats can be improved, but only up to racial max.

[Videopete]

47 minutes ago, womble said:

I'd count each +6 (or part thereof) as a die for the purposes of counting how many dice were rolled. And I believe that "min plus max rollable" is an overgeneralisation that works for pure dice, but not for stats that use adds.

Species maximum for INT and SIZ (for humans) that can't normally be increased by training/experience is still relevant (as is the general principle, for non-human characters that have improvable stats which include adds as well as dice); Bless Pregnancy lets you add points to any stat for the progeny of the Blessed pregnancy, but only up to the racial maximum. Personally, I'd be inclined to require the caster to specify what stats the stack points are going to be assigned to before they roll (so there's a fair chance of wastage if there's a lot of Rune Points behind it). There may be other occasions where the stats can be improved, but only up to racial max.

I get what you are saying, but after reading 2nd edition and first edition, Its something that has always been Additions have counted as a single die. But hey it's your game. BUT, it also makes it so that races with very big additions are not inherently a plain better option. Even though they are. But not ridiculously so.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Videopete

[PhilHibbs]

49 minutes ago, Videopete said:

I get what you are saying, but after reading 2nd edition and first edition, Its something that has always been Additions have counted as a single die. But hey it's your game.

Yes, I'm clear that per-6-or-fraction has never been a rule, but it's what I and my friends always decided on.

[JaredTwing]

I would assume the block on maximum statistics is the rule, and any other example that mistates that rule is wrong. I guess you could argue that the rule under the POW section should over ride that if the intent is that maximum POW is higher than every other stat. If that was the case, I would have included the exception in the block on maximum stats rather than in the POW section. That's how I'd rule it, barring something official in a FAQ.

[Brootse]

3 hours ago, Videopete said:

nope, the +6 and +12 both count as a single die, heck +100 is a single die. Its any addition counts as one die.

That said it does say both maxroll +dice=species maximum. And Maxroll+Miniroll=Species Maximum. So yeah FAQ/Errata This quick.

Yeah. Where do you report these?

Edited September 26, 2018 by Brootse

[styopa]

We've always used the max+min, which I think was canonical in RQ3.

It makes races whose stats are intrinsically magical (2d6+6 POW for example) still have only-slightly-better than average 'common' stats, but allows me as a DM to have exceptionally powerful leaders.  In short, I find it reasonable that a race with 2d6+6 POW should, at the top-end, have significantly better POW than humans, for example.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

Yeah. Where do you report these?

The errata thread is still locked, I expect they will unlock it once the first shipment of books is released, or if there is still a pending PDF update, when that is done.

[styopa]

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The errata thread is still locked, I expect they will unlock it once the first shipment of books is released, or if there is still a pending PDF update, when that is done.

I would guess/hope there's going to be a consolidated errata PDF of "changes we've caught since the finalized version went to the printer" so we can hand-correct to bring the print book to the current PDF version.

[Pentallion]

9 hours ago, Mechashef said:

On Pages 52 and 417 it states that the maximum value for a characteristic (excluding magical enhancements) is the maximum amount rollable on the characteristic dice, plus the number of dice.

For humans this equates to 21: (3D6 = 18) + (3 Dice = 3) = 21 or (2D6 + 6 = 18) + (2 Dice + the add of 6 counts as one additional die) = 21

 

However in the last paragraph in the section describing the characteristic of Power on Page 52, I states:

 

While this difference in terminology does not have an effect for humans, it would for other races.

 

I presume the Max Rollable + Min Rollable is simply a hang over from a previous version of RQ (such as RQ3) and should be ignored?

 

Thanks

 

POW is different than the other characteristics and thus Elves can have max power of 26, but use the other system to calculate their other species maximums in STR, CON, etc.

[Mechashef]

Slightly off topic but something that may have escaped some people.

 

The maximum value for both INT and SIZ for humans is 21.  This is clearly stated due to the Max Rollable value plus number of Dice used rule.

 

If the maximum value was the alternative (old rule) of Max Rollable Value plus Lowest rollable value then by my calculations it would be possible to have humans up to SIZ 22.

 

Why 22?

SIZ is generally not trainable but can be increased as part of the adventurer creation process.

 

So we could:

Roll 18 (using 2D6 + 6)

Add 2 if the adventurer’s primary Rune is Darkness.

Add 2 if the adventurer is a Bison Rider.

That totals 22.

But using the current rules the human maximum for SIZ is 21 so limits it to 21.

 

Yes, a bit off topic, but I get the impression that some people may have missed that INT and SIZ for humans can exceed 18.

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Pentallion said:

POW is different than the other characteristics and thus Elves can have max power of 26, but use the other system to calculate their other species maximums in STR, CON, etc.

I don't think POW is supposed to have a different max, I think that's just a mistake.

[Zozotroll]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think POW is supposed to have a different max, I think that's just a mistake.

Yes I do believe you are right.

[BWP]

[soltakss]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:27 AM, Mechashef said:

On Pages 52 and 417 it states that the maximum value for a characteristic (excluding magical enhancements) is the maximum amount rollable on the characteristic dice, plus the number of dice.

For humans this equates to 21: (3D6 = 18) + (3 Dice = 3) = 21 or (2D6 + 6 = 18) + (2 Dice + the add of 6 counts as one additional die) = 21

 

However in the last paragraph in the section describing the characteristic of Power on Page 52, I states:

 

While this difference in terminology does not have an effect for humans, it would for other races.

 

I presume the Max Rollable + Min Rollable is simply a hang over from a previous version of RQ (such as RQ3) and should be ignored?

Yes, RQ2 had 1D6 or part thereof giving a Species maximum of 7. RQ3 had Maximum Rollable + Minimum Rollable.

It is maddeningly inconsistent, in my opinion.

Use the RQ2 version, as it gives lower Species Maximum values and is more manageable.

[Pentallion]

On 9/26/2018 at 11:27 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think POW is supposed to have a different max, I think that's just a mistake.

It may NOT be a mistake.  RAW handle POW differently.  The rest of the stats go by RQ2 but POW goes by RQ3.

All the cut and paste errors to date have been RQ2 cut and pastes.  RQ3 has a bad rap with the designers.  A throwback to one of its rules would have to be a concious choice.

Therefore I think RAW is not a mistake in this instance.

[Mechashef]

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

It may NOT be a mistake.  RAW handle POW differently.  The rest of the stats go by RQ2 but POW goes by RQ3.

All the cut and paste errors to date have been RQ2 cut and pastes.  RQ3 has a bad rap with the designers.  A throwback to one of its rules would have to be a concious choice.

Therefore I think RAW is not a mistake in this instance.

You could indeed be correct as P418 (Making a POW Gain Roll) states:

Quote

To determine if POW increases add the adventurer's maximum rollable POW not including any Rune characteristic modifier(i.e., 18 for humans) plus the minimum rolled POW (3 for humans).

 

I hope you are correct as I like how it makes 2D6+6 potentially much more powerful than 3D6