Kolating shamanism and RQG

[Pentallion]

Not sure why Kolat was left off the cult list for Shamanism since it seems to represent Sartarite shamanism.  I looked up Kolati magic in the Sartar Companion and tried to figure out the rune spells.  Here's the rough Cult Spirit Society description that I have so far.  Not the final draft by any means.

Kolat   spirit-air

Quote

The Kolat Tradition is the only male path to shamanism amongst the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass. Although some other predominantly male cults have some limited spirit worship (notably Odayla and Urox), only Kolat provides a broad understanding of the Spirit World. Serdrodosa is the female path to shamanism amongst the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass. Other spirit societies amongst the Orlanthi build upon the Kolating or Serdrodosing traditions. - Sartar Companion

Instead of negotiating with spirits, Kolatings gamble with them using gambling sticks.

Holy Days

Kolat has only one holy day open to outsiders.  That is Good Winds Day.  Other Kolati holy days are determined by the use of their gambling sticks.

Cult Skills:

Cult Lore (Kolat), Speak Spiritspeech, Spirit Lore, Spirit Combat, Gaming, Worship Kolat

Favored Passion:  Gambling

Spirit Magic:  All

Common Rune Magic: Axis Mundi and see below

Special Rune Magic: See below

Enchantments:  The usual.

Obtaining Rune Magic:  Except for Axis Mundi (and enchantments for full shamans) Kolati don't obtain Rune Spells in the same way theists do.  Instead, they must travel to the Otherworld and find a friendly cult spirit that knows the Rune Magic, gamble with them and win their magic.  In return for the spell, the shaman must take on an additional taboo.  Once a taboo has been taken for a specific type of spirit, no further taboos are necessary to obtain more of that type of spirits rune magic.

Before Me -  Hhu Ho  ("breath friend") air spirits - Summon Air (small/medium). 

On My Right - Tular Narnei (“Uncle Frost”) air spirits - Snow. 

Behind Me - Uuuh Hu (“Wrong Season”) air spirits - Increase/Decrease Wind

On My Left - Seleran (“the Deep Well”) water spirits - Spirit Block. 

Above Me - Veren Vu (“Sky Defender”) fire spirits - Reflection

Below Me - Zolan Zubar (“Hell Demon”) darkness spirits - Turn Undead

 

 

Okay, that's my second draft.  I'm sure the more knowledgeable of you out there can perfect this.  Let's have at it.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Pentallion

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Common Rune Magic: All

Special Rune Magic: Cloud clear.  Cloud Call, Increase/Decrease Wind, Wind Warp, Discorporation, Reflection, Spirit Block, Rain, Snow, Summon Air (small and medium),  Turn Undead, Summon Healing spirit, Summon Spirit Guardian.

This seems way too much for Kolat.  His followers are shamans, not theistic worshippers.  Personally, I'd tend to make them strictly shamans with an affinity almost exclusively to spirits of the Air and Movement.  However, if you like the cult model, follow that of Oakfed (RQG p.379) who is the equally powerful spirit of Fire.

Common Rune Magic:  Divination, Extension 1, Multispell 1, and Spirit Block.
Special Rune Magic: Summon and Dismiss Air Elemental (any size), and probably Increase/Decrease Wind.

All other magics through spirits.  I'd exclude spirit magics associated with other elements (i.e. no Darkwall, Firewall, Firearrow, Fireblade).

[Pentallion]

And yet Sartar Companion gives them:

Before Me. They provide charms relating to the winds.
On My Right.  They provide charms that relate to cold weather.
Behind Me. They provide charms that Change the Weather.
On My Left. They provide charms that relate to blocking spirit attacks.
Above Me. They provide charms that defend against magic, or rebound spirit magic against caster, or track spirit magic back to its source.
Below Me. They provide charms that fight one of the Six Foes: undead corpses, possession spirits, spirits of death powers, spirits of diseases, and curses sent by women

So not sure I agree that what I came up with is way too much for Kolat.  Sounds like Kolat gets a ton of spells.  When you look for spirit magic that does these things you don't find much, but you can find all these things as rune magic, so went with that.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Pentallion said:

And yet Sartar Companion gives them:

(lots of charms)

So not sure I agree that what I came up with is way too much for Kolat.  Sounds like Kolat gets a ton of spells.  When you look for spirit magic that does these things you don't find much, but you can find all these things as rune magic, so went with that.

HQ gives a lot more magic than HQG, as I recall. Correct me if I'm wrong, I only ever ran the playtest version of HW, but in that, any Orlanthi could start with flight at will.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Now any and every Orlanthi CAN start with flight at will. 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Now any and every Orlanthi CAN start with flight at will. 

Flight once a season.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Don't initiates of Orlanth get Rune points back on Minor Holy days, as well as all 13 of his associated cults holy days throughout every season?

[PhilHibbs]

44 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Don't initiates of Orlanth get Rune points back on Minor Holy days, as well as all 13 of his associated cults holy days throughout every season?

I didn't think you get them back on associate cult holy days, but checking the rules, you do. So you get 2D6 for Seasonal Holy Day, 1D6 for the floating Holy Day, and 1D6 for each associated cult Seasonal Holy Day visits happen to occur when you are near one.

That's still a long way from "at will", many adventures will not include an opportunity for a worship ceremony.

My point is, the game systems are very different in the way they dish out magic, both in the range available, the hunting around you need to do to get it, and how often it can be used. Better to compare a new write-up to other similar RQG cults than to HQ cults.

[Gryphaea]

To chip in my two bolgs worth on this one -

I really like the idea of gambling with spirits not negotiating with them, that could be interesting...

HQ makes use of Keywords which for me implies that characters can be very diverse, everyone has vastly different and very individual skills, talents and magic. RQG is more standardised and characters could end up having the same skills and magics but for different reasons. My gut reaction would be to say that a Kolat shaman could perhaps have all the spells but not all together at the start.

Could the cult have different sub cults or families of spirits and the shaman specialises in a one or two of the groups but not all of them - so On my Right and On My Left  but not Below me. Perhaps one of the groups of charms is obtained when the character becomes a full shaman and gets their fetch, then the others then have to be obtained separately through different spirit journeys or quests. Perhaps the fetch quest could be duplicated but with a hostile wind spirit instead of the Bad Man? Or would it travelling to a spirit place contacting and negotiating with a spiritual entity to get the extra powers?

Could we speculate on what the Taboos associated with the Kolat tradition are? Perhaps each group of charms above have their own Taboo or Taboos.

Also what do you think would be the bonuses to skills that a character in character creation would get, and how much?

[Pentallion]

Another reason not buying into that this is too much and I should use the Oakfed spirit society as a template is because Oakfed is one of SEVERAL subcults available to Kolati shamanism.

What I make of that is Kolats get a large spell list.

[g33k]

11 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Another reason not buying into that this is too much and I should use the Oakfed spirit society as a template is because Oakfed is one of SEVERAL subcults available to Kolati shamanism.

What I make of that is Kolats get a large spell list.

Wait... Oakfed is a subcult of Kolat?  Hrm.  Is this canon?

[Pentallion]

51 minutes ago, g33k said:

Wait... Oakfed is a subcult of Kolat?  Hrm.  Is this canon?

From the Sartar Companion:

Quote

 

Other Kolating Spirit Societies:

Spirit magicians of the Kolat Tradition often belong to another spirit society in addition to the Seven Winds. These are both loose organizations and relationships with important spirits. Some wellknown spirit societies include:

 

Chalk Man

Oakfed

Serkos

Granny Vo and Uncle

I would point out that Oakfed in RQG gives out far more Rune spells than the magic Oakfed in the Sartar Companion gives out.   Since that would seem to undermine the argument that (whichever game system Sartar Companion uses that I've always ignored while playing RQ3) gives out way more magic than RQG. 

I like the suggestion above that the shaman needs to go out and find the spirits that give him those Rune spells instead of just sacrificing Rune Points for them.  I would rather approach Kolat as a Spirit Society than a Cult.  However, RQG doesn't make such distinctions, treating the Spirit Society of Oakfed as a minor cult where one gets their rune spells through ritual worship ceremonies.  So I think it's a game system mechanic and whether they deal with spirits for the powers or worship them is splitting hairs, the mechanic is identical to theism either way.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Pentallion

[Atgxtg]

15 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Spirit magicians of the Kolat Tradition often belong to another spirit society in addition to the Seven Winds. These are both loose organizations and relationships with important spirits. Some wellknown spirit societies include:

It's probably just a technicality but maybe instead of the large list of Rune Spells, Kolati should have a large list of affiliated/allied cults (spirit societies) that they can join to get access to their Rune Magic? Probably with reduced responsibilities to the second cult. 

That way Kolat could still provide some spells, although less that what you have, but have access to a wider range of spells through cult affiliations. You might be able to get a game mechanic close to spirit societies via affiliated cults. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I didn't think you get them back on associate cult holy days, but checking the rules, you do. So you get 2D6 for Seasonal Holy Day, 1D6 for the floating Holy Day, and 1D6 for each associated cult Seasonal Holy Day visits happen to occur when you are near one.

That's still a long way from "at will", many adventures will not include an opportunity for a worship ceremony

Adventures are set up to occur generally once a season now. Every Orlanthi should have a very high chance of having all of their rune points back even if they adventured every week. They have associate holy days every week, maybe even multiple, I have yet to lay out all of the associated cults from the core book on a calendar for an Orlanthi initiate. That is far closer to At Will than anything RQ has put out before. 

[Atgxtg]

31 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Adventures are set up to occur generally once a season now. Every Orlanthi should have a very high chance of having all of their rune points back even if they adventured every week. They have associate holy days every week, maybe even multiple, I have yet to lay out all of the associated cults from the core book on a calendar for an Orlanthi initiate. That is far closer to At Will than anything RQ has put out before. 

Yes, but I think what Phil is pointing out is that an Orlanthi in RQG  is still going to be limited to flying once or twice per adventure, depending on how many points of the spell he has, while an Orlanthi in HQ  can fly as much as he wants. 

 

[Pentallion]

25 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but I think what Phil is pointing out is that an Orlanthi in RQG  is still going to be limited to flying once or twice per adventure, depending on how many points of the spell he has, while an Orlanthi in HQ  can fly as much as he wants. 

 

yeah, but the original argument becomes even more undermined in that case.  In HQ they gave out all these spells and they could use them at will.  Here, they can only use them on a very limited basis, so less magic is actually available, not more.   No one has given me even the slightest reason to agree that there are too many spells available here. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

32 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but I think what Phil is pointing out is that an Orlanthi in RQG  is still going to be limited to flying once or twice per adventure, depending on how many points of the spell he has, while an Orlanthi in HQ  can fly as much as he wants. 

Ah, I did not realize that HQ has such ubiquitous use of magics. 

[Pentallion]

Another point that undermines the perception that there are too many spells here for Kolatings.

Babeester Gor gets 7 Rune spells, all common and enchantments in RQG.  In Sartar Companion she gets Axe Trance and three abilities of which she can only call upon one depending upon who she intends to kill.

So RQG gives her far more spells, allowing her do to far more things.  All I've given Kolatings are just the spells needed to do what is described to be within their powers.

Same holds true for Engizi and Heler.

Odayla is an exception.  In the Sartar Companion he gets tons of spells, but in RQG he only gets three.

One thing I'll agree with Phil here is that compared to other cults, where the average is 7-9 rune spells, I see I've given Kolat 11.  I can see trimming it down to 8 or 9.  The problem is, in order to do what it is said they can do, I can't figure out which spells to drop. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Pentallion

[Atgxtg]

32 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

yeah, but the original argument becomes even more undermined in that case.  In HQ they gave out all these spells and they could use them at will.  Here, they can only use them on a very limited basis, so less magic is actually available, not more.   No one has given me even the slightest reason to agree that there are too many spells available here. 

Yeah. I wasn't addressing the orginal argument, just that magic is more prevalent and easier to use in HQ.

[Atgxtg]

28 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Ah, I did not realize that HQ has such ubiquitous use of magics. 

HQ has ubiquitous use of everything. Basically everything in HQ is described as  or a subset of a  keyword, which has a rating.  The only real differences between magic and non-magical keywords is that magic gets to bypass some of the limitations of normal keywords. There was an example of this the rules, where one character uses their Orlanthi ability to fly to easily win a jumping contest, even though their rating was much lower than the jump ability of another contestant.

[Joerg]

In the original Hero Wars, you had to be a devotee to perform a feat, and I think that carried over into HQ1. That reduced the number of flyers significantly.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I like the suggestion above that the shaman needs to go out and find the spirits that give him those Rune spells instead of just sacrificing Rune Points for them.  I would rather approach Kolat as a Spirit Society than a Cult.  However, RQG doesn't make such distinctions, treating the Spirit Society of Oakfed as a minor cult where one gets their rune spells through ritual worship ceremonies.  So I think it's a game system mechanic and whether they deal with spirits for the powers or worship them is splitting hairs, the mechanic is identical to theism either way.

I don't think it would be amiss to have the Kolating shaman hunt down spirits that have a single specific rune spell, particularly if that spirit has a taboo that the shaman must adopt.  If you just grant them as rune spells all you have to do is spend the rune points to get them, and at that point you have a cult as powerful as Orlanth (which is why I wouldn't play it that way, and would simply ask 'why not use Orlanth?').  [Note: one additional way to play and limit Kolating scope is that Kolat has only shrines and each shrine only has one rune spell available, and possibly on a one-use rather than reusable basis.]

As for the Spirit Society of Oakfed, I think we've really only had a preview in RQG.  He's really only got one special rune spell, and you go to his one main site to regain.  Otherwise, you're acting as a shaman and you are travelling into the spirit plane to find friendly spirits with whatever magic they have.  Assuming Oakfed is friendly with Kolat, his shamans could gain a spirit that knows Increase Wind to help spread Oakfed's fires.

Different ways to play - I'd just tend to focus on the shamanic rather than rune spell aspects.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

In the original Hero Wars, you had to be a devotee to perform a feat, and I think that carried over into HQ1. That reduced the number of flyers significantly.

Yup, but ti was still a boost from RQ. Of course with the way HW/HQ works it usually doesn't matter much, as most things boiled down to opposed ability ratings. 

[Pentallion]

Updated the initial cult description.  thanks for all the input guys.

[Atgxtg]

I think now the next step is to work out the gambling bit. It would be nice if you could bet (i.e. risk something for the desired magic), raise the stakes (up the risks but up the benefits), and so me how try to improve your "hand" in the gambling match. 

An idea:

1. Once the desired is spirit is found the Shaman makes a wager to try and entice the spirit to gamble. Magic Points seem the obvious choice here, although spell knowledge could be a possibility, as could be some sort of of possession or curse.  I'm thinking MPs equal to twice the points of Rune Magic desired seem like a good amount. The GM could match the MP risked vs. the Rune Points on the resistance table to see if the shaman is successful in enticing the spirit to gamble. 

2. This could be followed by a gambling roll for the shaman (and  a secret one by the GM for the spirit). At this point either side can fold (and pay up), or they can continue. Then either side can choose to up the bet, focing the other to either match the bet, raise, or fold.

3. When all bets are in both sides reveal thier "hand" with the result treated as an opposed roll. The winner collects his rewards, and the loser pays up.

 

Optionally, you could allow for a "mystical" draw to try an improve the hand (sorry for the cards reference, what sort of gambling methods do shaman and sprints use?) in between the betting and the reveal. In that case  either party can reroll to try and improve their roll, but if they fail their skill roll their result gets downgraded to the new roll.