Kolating shamanism and RQG

[Pentallion]

I was thinking the shaman has to offer either a sacrifice (like a deer) or a service (GM has to come up with something.)  Then instead of spirit combat, the shaman rolls his gambling skill vs the spirits Spirit Combat skill.  One roll, winner take all.  It's supposed to represent the toss of the gambling sticks.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Pentallion

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Updated the initial cult description.

I like that much better!

On the taboos, I note that these come directly from Sartar Companion, so fine to use as is, but a couple thoughts below:

> Never commit adultery - another possible taboo could be "Never wear clothes [possibly for specific location]" so that you are closest to the winds.

> Must Tend Oak Trees - I don't tend to think of oak trees in association with frost/snow.  You might consider something like "Gather mistletoe each Freezeday during Darkseason"

> Rise Early From Sleep - I'd make it more specific such as "Rise each day before Dawn" or "Never rise before Dawn"

[Julian Lord]

On 10/8/2018 at 1:40 AM, Pentallion said:

And yet Sartar Companion gives them:

HeroQuest has a very different and far less "crunchy" magic system.

[Julian Lord]

19 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Now any and every Orlanthi CAN start with flight at will. 

Player Characters are not "any and every" Orlanthi.

[Julian Lord]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but I think what Phil is pointing out is that an Orlanthi in RQG  is still going to be limited to flying once or twice per adventure, depending on how many points of the spell he has, while an Orlanthi in HQ  can fly as much as he wants. 

Only some Orlanthi in HeroQuest could do so.

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, Julian Lord said:

Player Characters are not "any and every" Orlanthi.

How many members of a clan would be initiates versus Lay Members of the primary cult worshipped by the clan? If most members are lay members then sure, there are still a ton of villagers that can't fly. Every initiate can basically spend all their rune points a couple times a week from character creation, once they get over 5 or so they won't reliably get them ALL back every roll but, they can still cast a lot of rune magic. I personally, LOVE that magic is much more available and actually used before Rune-Lord levels. 

[Julian Lord]

48 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

How many members of a clan would be initiates versus Lay Members of the primary cult worshipped by the clan? If most members are lay members then sure, there are still a ton of villagers that can't fly. Every initiate can basically spend all their rune points a couple times a week from character creation, once they get over 5 or so they won't reliably get them ALL back every roll but, they can still cast a lot of rune magic. I personally, LOVE that magic is much more available and actually used before Rune-Lord levels. 

Yes, but in the HeroQuest rules that were being referred to in the "any and all Orlanthi can fly" claim, only those having achieved a meaningful status in the "right" subcult could do so as a matter of course.

I warmly agree with the rest of your statement 😄

[HreshtIronBorne]

Ah, I get it. Thanks.

[Austin]

The first draft didn't do a lot for me, but I'm pretty charmed by this second draft. Love the whole "gamble with the spirits to learn their magic" thing. I like the idea of sacrificing a deer, cow, whatever, more than MP, since it represents something more permanent. Some sort of obligation. That process should be more explicitly described (even if it's just stated flat-out as whoever rolls lower on D100).

What day is Good Winds Day? For those of us only familiar with the default Orlanthi calendar . A sentence advising how to determine the Kolati holy days could be helpful too (roll D20 and count along?).

 I think the Cult skill "Gambling" should be "Game" per RQG Core p.178

I figure you could add Axis Mundi as a special Rune spell all Kolating shamans get access to (although maybe it behaves differently?), since it seems to be a key part of how RQG's general shamanism functions. Perhaps they get it the usual gambling way, but part of the Kolating ritual to become a shaman is succeeding at that gamble? (Instead of--or in addition to--meeting the Horned Man and the Bad Man.)

"Never commit adultery" could maybe use more explanation, considering all the odd Orlanthi marriage varieties. The simplest rewording might be "Never have sex outside marriage."

"Immune to curses cast by women" could use more explanation too. What's a curse? Any spell which needs to overcome POW--and then is Disrupt a curse? That doesn't seem likely to me. I suppose this connects to a broader idea of "what are curses to the Orlanthi?" outside just Rune and spirit magic. Which is probably outside this writeup's scope.

[Jeff]

I'm not sure I would present Kolat for RQG at all like I did for Sartar Companion. 

Kolat is the source of Air Elementals. He's more of a name or title than anything else - Orlanth cultists just ask Orlanth to summon up an Air Elemental and use him to command them or dismiss them. 

Now there are a variety of shamanic traditions around in Dragon Pass. Despite what has been said, probably the most common is through ancestor worship aka Daka Fal or through another cult with a strong shamanic element like Waha or the Golden Bow. There's also those rare individuals who don't get chosen by a god during their initiation rites and need to find another, more arduous path to the Great Mystery - the path of the apprentice shaman. The specific path is handed down from shaman to apprentice, and all these paths collectively get called Kolati in Dragon Pass.

[Gryphaea]

Second draft is looking much better. Some nice work there.

What about travelling to the spirit world, finding a spirit and gambling with them. The Character  makes a sacrifice (1 point of POW - though could be other stats) and a game roll is made. If the Character wins they get a Rune Magic point and a rune spell, on a special they get 2 points, on a critical they get their sacrifice back and a rune point on a failure they get a taboo but can roll again and on a fumble the get a taboo (or curse?) and cannot game again with a spirit till sacred time (or a full year?)

I personally think that some of the taboos are a bit vanilla, but I do like my shamans to be liminal. No adultery - that's a cultural norm for Orlanthi not a sign that you are apart from the hoi polloi, it should be celibacy or nothing. Being a shaman should carry real cost or oblige you to perform actions that make you a kind of social pariah. I would humbly suggest we need more taboos, and then a few more, and then even more after that. 

I like never wear clothes as a taboo. in the same vein you could add never eat insects or worms - meaning that the character wears a scarf over their mouth and nose and obsessively checks their food.

What about a yearly pilgrimage? Must travel to the chalk man each year, or each spirit has its own spirit place, or several spirit places and if you make a pact with a spirit that gives you rune magic then you need to make a pilgrimage to one of its spirit sites each year - which then gives a hook for further adventurers and also acts a practical limitation on how many spirits you can make pacts with

Glorantha is such a rich world I am sure we can squeeze more flavour out of it on this one.
 

[PhilHibbs]

57 minutes ago, Gryphaea said:

I like never wear clothes as a taboo.

That explains those weirdos that cover themselves with bark or grass.

[womble]

7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

How many members of a clan would be initiates versus Lay Members of the primary cult worshipped by the clan? 

Most of them, according to the materials I've been reading lately (Sartar Rising, The Red Cow Saga; the Colymar Clan 'typical militia' entry in the Gamemaster Screen Pack Adventure Book) has the standard PC 3 RP). Unless you say that NPC Initiates have different rules and opportunities to PC Initiates, adults should be getting about 1 POW increase per year to sac for additional Rune Points or contribute to Enchantments and Wyters.

 

7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

 I personally, LOVE that magic is much more available and actually used before Rune-Lord levels. 

Me too. Makes it all the more Glorantha-y, IMO. Magic everywhere. It makes a big difference.

[Pentallion]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'm not sure I would present Kolat for RQG at all like I did for Sartar Companion. 

Kolat is the source of Air Elementals. He's more of a name or title than anything else - Orlanth cultists just ask Orlanth to summon up an Air Elemental and use him to command them or dismiss them. 

Now there are a variety of shamanic traditions around in Dragon Pass. Despite what has been said, probably the most common is through ancestor worship aka Daka Fal or through another cult with a strong shamanic element like Waha or the Golden Bow. There's also those rare individuals who don't get chosen by a god during their initiation rites and need to find another, more arduous path to the Great Mystery - the path of the apprentice shaman. The specific path is handed down from shaman to apprentice, and all these paths collectively get called Kolati in Dragon Pass.

The thing is, one of my players has played all kinds of shamans, from Eolian to Daka Fal to that shadowy duck one who I am blanking on right now and don't want to look up lol.  And right now he's like "Daka Fal again? Of all the shamans he's played, that kind is his least favorite.  No offense, but it's kinda dull and basic.  Kolatings, as described in Sartar Companion sound way more fun to him.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Pentallion

[Jeff]

Just now, Pentallion said:

The thing is, one of my players has played all kinds of shamans, from Eolian to Daka Fal to that shadowy duck one who I am blanking on right now and don't want to look up lol.  And right now he's like "Daka Fal again? Of all the shamans he's played, that kind is his least favorite.  No offense, but it's kinda dull and basic.  Kolatings, as described in Sartar Companion sound way more fun to him.

We've barely touched upon spirit cults in the core rules. But Daka Fal in RQG gets all your shamanic powers, plus some Rune Magic and an assembly of friendly spirits. So does Waha for that matter.

[Atgxtg]

17 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I was thinking the shaman has to offer either a sacrifice (like a deer) or a service (GM has to come up with something.)  Then instead of spirit combat, the shaman rolls his gambling skill vs the spirits Spirit Combat skill.  One roll, winner take all.  It's supposed to represent the toss of the gambling sticks.

So the shaman contacts the spirit and says, "If I win, you give me the Rain Rune Spell, but if you win I go get you some venison, whddaya say?".

I think there should probably be at least some token MP expenditure to make it worthwhile for the spirit.  Or at least some way for the spirit to benefit from the sacrifice, like it gets MPs or a POW gain roll or something. 

 

As for the services, they should probably be related to the type of spirit being contacted. Air spirits might want an area opened up for the wind, a structure knocked down or some such so they can move more freely, a fire spirit might want something burned. I think the thing here is that the sacrifice or  service should be something that is actually inconvenient for the shaman to do. If it's too easy then he isn't really gambling, and it becomes a cheap way to get free Rune Magic. Having to fight some sort of enemy spirit in Spirit Combat in behalf of the spirit could work. Say the Shaman looses to a Fire spirit, and it wants him to get rid of a pesky water spirit that's been protecting something, say a ship,  the fire spirit wants to burn. So the Shaman gets rid of the water spirit, and the ship get burned. An now the Shaman has to explain to the owner why he got rid of the protecting spirit. 

Hmm, a Shaman claiming that he had to do it because he was in debt to a fire spirit sounds about right. 

[Austin]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

As for the services, they should probably be related to the type of spirit being contacted. Air spirits might want an area opened up for the wind, a structure knocked down or some such so they can move more freely, a fire spirit might want something burned. I think the thing here is that the sacrifice or  service should be something that is actually inconvenient for the shaman to do. If it's too easy then he isn't really gambling, and it becomes a cheap way to get free Rune Magic. Having to fight some sort of enemy spirit in Spirit Combat in behalf of the spirit could work. Say the Shaman looses to a Fire spirit, and it wants him to get rid of a pesky water spirit that's been protecting something, say a ship,  the fire spirit wants to burn. So the Shaman gets rid of the water spirit, and the ship get burned. An now the Shaman has to explain to the owner why he got rid of the protecting spirit. 

Hmm, a Shaman claiming that he had to do it because he was in debt to a fire spirit sounds about right. 

I agree with all of this, but how in the world would you systematize it for OP's cult writeup? Like, "Sorry guys, but I lost a bet to the ghost. *shrug*" is 100% my playstyle and definitely seems like something a single GM could run, but how would you phrase that into a broader document? The best I can think of is a random "lost bet" table for each of the different groups of spirits, but that seems like it'd be kind of obnoxious to play (remembering my Warhammer days and all the chart lookups).

[David Scott]

as @Jeff said - 

Quote

I'm not sure I would present Kolat for RQG at all like I did for Sartar Companion.

We've come a long way since the Companion and the RQG version really isn't like the Sartar Companion version for HQ.

Firstly the Dragon Pass Orlanthi spirit tradition is likely called the Orlanthi tradition (like the Praxian tradition, the Grazer tradition, etc)  There's likely an Orlanthi shamanic power that lets a shaman become the wind, these are the real Kolati. The greater power you would need to contact to learn this is likely Orlanth himself.

Secondly there are two types of shaman - non-cult and cult (Daka Fal, Earth witch, and a few others) all of these follow the rules for spirits per the core book. Most Orlanthi shaman are likely Daka Fal.

Thirdly all of the spirits mentioned under RQG are spirit cults. See page 377. However they would only get short write-ups look at the GoG boxed set and Spirits of Prax in Tales 14, 15, 16 for examples. My quick take would be :

Kolat - Summon Air Elemental (small/medium/large).

Hhu Ho  ("breath friend") Increase/Decrease Wind

Tular Narnei (“Uncle Frost”)  Snow.

Uuuh Hu (“Wrong Season”) Cloud Call

Seleran (“the Deep Well”)  Spirit Block. 

Veren Vu (“Sky Defender”)  Not sure but not Reflection, Dismiss Magic, Discorporate. (one spell only)

Zolan Zubar (“Hell Demon”)  Not sure but not Turn Undead, Summon Healing Spirit, Summon Guardian Spirit. (one spell only)

Those above are part of the Seven Winds Spirit Society. A spirit society is a collection of spirit cults that are culturally shared. Your rune points go into a shared pool, but you still have to ally each spirit individually.

On 10/8/2018 at 6:20 PM, Pentallion said:

Chalk Man

Oakfed

Serkos

Granny Vo and Uncle

Are also spirit cults

On 10/8/2018 at 6:20 PM, Pentallion said:

I would point out that Oakfed in RQG gives out far more Rune spells than the magic Oakfed in the Sartar Companion gives out.

Yes, but mostly just shrines are available and you only get one cult special rune spell at a shrine (page 284). You'd need the equivalent of a major temple to get all the common and special rune magic. So in Sartar he likely gives one spell, in Prax it's create Wildfire so I'd say the same.

Finally Taboos work differently in RQG than HQG. Taboos are part of shamanic abilities - page 359, not memberships of spirit cults.

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

I agree with all of this, but how in the world would you systematize it for OP's cult writeup? Like, "Sorry guys, but I lost a bet to the ghost. *shrug*" is 100% my playstyle and definitely seems like something a single GM could run, but how would you phrase that into a broader document? The best I can think of is a random "lost bet" table for each of the different groups of spirits, but that seems like it'd be kind of obnoxious to play (remembering my Warhammer days and all the chart lookups).

Good question. I figure it would probably be something like the Gift & Geases tables, with the severity of the service tied to the number of points of Rune Magic. 

Instead of that, I suppose we could do what they did in Stormbringer and list appropriate sacrifices and services for each type of spirit, along with some sort of intensity scale that matches up action with Rune Points. We could have it so that sprints have favored actions, which are worth more points, acceptable actions, which give "normal" points, and disapproved actions, which either aren't worth anything or a have a reduced value.

Maybe (and I'm just brainstorming here, before the caffeine has kicked in) we could tie this to a characters Rune's? It would seem to me that having a high Fire or Air rune should help when dealing with those types of Spirits. Maybe the Shaman could wager some of his % in the appropriate rune, or maybe the opposite? That is if you lose to a spirit it reduces your score in th erune that opposes it's own. 

 

And/or maybe the whole thing could be reduced down to a geas/taboo. For example, a shaman might be obligated to get a check in his Air rune (or suffer some penalty,. like a reduction in the Rune % or in POW) and all those tasks and services are really just ways for him to try and get a check. So a Shaman who loses to a fire spirit and needs to get a check in his Fire rune becomes something of a pyro.  

 

 

[Pentallion]

I'm glad Jeff and David are weighing in on this.  It's very helpful, thank you guys.  My first draft didn't have taboos, though the SC had them, because taboos are already covered elsewhere in RQG, but as people seemed to think I should include them I later changed it. So I will edit those back out.

As for Daka Fal, that's fine, I get it.  There won't be a canonical Kolat coming out.  This thread becomes a sort of "Your Glorantha may Vary" using this cult write up.  As I said, one of my players doesn't really want another Daka Fal shaman.  He wants something new.  About 10 years ago on an older forum, I did a cult write up for Eolian shamans and Greg gave it his seal of approval.  My friend loved being an Eolian shaman.  It was very much like what the Kolat shaman now looks like except of course for different spirits, Reindeer, Fox, Otter, Raven and Owl.  And we didn't have RQG of course.  So if anyone wants to use what's written up here, then hope you have fun.

If you want to stay within what Chaosium has planned then evidently this isn't the way to go.

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Pentallion said:

As I said, one of my players doesn't really want another Daka Fal shaman

Don't join a cult is the answer, be a "pure" shaman. You don't get rune magic from a core cult, just the spirit cults you join alternatively join the Seven Winds society, that's just as valid, you get called a Kolati. I'd let you join the Seven Winds, let you choose 3 spirits to start with and give you 3 rune points for their magic.

[PhilHibbs]

Do shamans have separate Rune Point pools for every spirit that they get rune magic from?

[David Scott]

20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do shamans have separate Rune Point pools for every spirit that they get rune magic from?

looking at the examples, yes. However if the spirit is part of spirit society then the pool is shared. Spirit society rules aren't detailed yet.

Edited October 11, 2018 by David Scott

[g33k]

On 10/11/2018 at 2:01 PM, David Scott said:

... However if the spirit is part of spirit society then the pool is shared. Spirit society rules aren't detailed yet.

Apologies for summoning an ancient thread, but... well, it is a Shamanic thread.

I wondered if any updated Shamanic rules can be revealed yet -- at least in part -- as the first few Cults books are out, and I think a book with Horned Man & Spirit Cults is supposed to be coming (?)

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/8/2018 at 9:02 PM, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but I think what Phil is pointing out is that an Orlanthi in RQG  is still going to be limited to flying once or twice per adventure, depending on how many points of the spell he has.

True for reasonably new characters, but a more experienced Orlanthi PC could do it several times, or all season with Extension (mine tend to have 10-20 Points of Rune Magic after six in-game years).