Noble titles in Glorantha

[hkokko]

Looking for a variety of noble titles used in the various societies of Glorantha. I think there must have been variety of different title names. For Fonrit I have been using various Middle Eastern noble ranks. For the western perhaps the standard medieval ones will do. What are ones you see fit for the various regions. 

Fonrit

Umathela

Western

Sartar

Lunar 

Esrolia

 

[womble]

Sartar: King, Chieftain, Thane, Carl, Cottar. Thane is the lowest 'noble' rank.

Lunar: use whatever takes your fancy.

Esrolia: Queen, Grandmother, Priestess.

[jeffjerwin]

The Lunar Empire does not have noble titles but it has elite offices, such as Sultan, Satrap, Overseer, ranging all the way up to Lunar Immortal and Egi. In practice, the extended family of these people has noble social status.

The Dara Happans may have had titles and still use them (i.e., Duke Raus got his somewhere, Count Sor-Eel, etc.), but nobility is a quality associated with families descended from an Emperor. They don't consider non-Imperial descended Lunars to be nobility, merely high-ranking bureaucrats.

The Holy Country had Count and Duke as military titles/positions.

[Kloster]

20 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Dara Happans may have had titles and still use them (i.e., Duke Raus got his somewhere, Count Sor-Eel, etc.), but nobility is a quality associated with families descended from an Emperor. They don't consider non-Imperial descended Lunars to be nobility, merely high-ranking bureaucrats.

 

I thought Duke Raus was Carmanian.

Kloster

[jeffjerwin]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I thought Duke Raus was Carmanian.

Kloster

He's from Kostaddi, transplanted to the Redlands, transplanted to Prax.

[Kloster]

9 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

He's from Kostaddi, transplanted to the Redlands, transplanted to Prax.

Interesting. Where is the information from? It seems a lot of water has flown under Paris bridges since I quit following what is Glorantha.

Kloster

[jeffjerwin]

The Redlands bit is from Borderlands and Pavis books. He is linked to Kostaddi - his ancestors came from there according to the Pavis HQ book. Rone is on the semi-canon HW map of the Lunar Empire Wesley Quadros made, in Kostaddi. The wiki says he tried to stem a rebellion in Kostaddi c.1610 but I'm not sure of the precise source; perhaps an interpolation from the Borderlands info.

[Kloster]

38 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Redlands bit is from Borderlands and Pavis books. He is linked to Kostaddi - his ancestors came from there according to the Pavis HQ book. Rone is on the semi-canon HW map of the Lunar Empire Wesley Quadros made, in Kostaddi. The wiki says he tried to stem a rebellion in Kostaddi c.1610 but I'm not sure of the precise source; perhaps an interpolation from the Borderlands info.

That means HeroWars/Heroquest. That explains why I never noticed this.

I've read the wiki, but not found where this comes from. Thanks for all the infos.

Kloster

[soltakss]

There are Counts and Mayors, in Prax and Dragon Pass.

In Prax, I'd say that Khan is a common title for a male leader of a Clan or Tribe, Queen is the female equivalent, although I support Khaness could work. Pent could have the same, in my Glorantha they share a common origin with Praxians.

 

 

[jeffjerwin]

12 minutes ago, soltakss said:

There are Counts and Mayors, in Prax and Dragon Pass.

In Prax, I'd say that Khan is a common title for a male leader of a Clan or Tribe, Queen is the female equivalent, although I support Khaness could work. Pent could have the same, in my Glorantha they share a common origin with Praxians.

 

 

The female equivalent of Khan is Khatun or Khanum.

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

The female equivalent of Khan is Khatun or Khanum.

Thanks. I thought that Hatun, pronounced similarly to Khatun but with a normal H not an an aspirated one, just was a title for "Woman".

I hadn't heard of Khanum.

[jeffjerwin]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Thanks. I thought that Hatun, pronounced similarly to Khatun but with a normal H not an an aspirated one, just was a title for "Woman".

I hadn't heard of Khanum.

It's kind of like using Madame. The modern usage is a polite honorific.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

He is linked to Kostaddi - his ancestors came from there according to the Pavis HQ book. Rone is on the semi-canon HW map of the Lunar Empire Wesley Quadros made, in Kostaddi.

Kostaddi is noted specifically all the way back in the original Borderlands.  It's only the specific location of Rone that was added in the HW map.

"Minimal facts are known to the adventurers: Raus is from the Redlands of the Lunar Empire, his ancestors were from Kostaddi, and he served with distinction in the Lunar army."

[Kloster]

37 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Kostaddi is noted specifically all the way back in the original Borderlands.  It's only the specific location of Rone that was added in the HW map.

"Minimal facts are known to the adventurers: Raus is from the Redlands of the Lunar Empire, his ancestors were from Kostaddi, and he served with distinction in the Lunar army."

I didn't remember that. I have played original Borderlands  around 1986, and purchased it around 89. I much liked it (both playing and reading), but didn't remember this detail. Thanks.

Kloster

[Sir_Godspeed]

Ralios has a wide number of different noble titles, a bit of a hogepodge, borrowed from Orlanthi and Western alike, but the most notable local title is Archon, which is also controversial due to its association with the Stygian Empire. That being said, it's the title of an office of the leader, rather than a "rank", iirc.

I assume "Talar" in general serves as a "noble rank" in the West. More specifically... they still use Dukes and Counts and Barons despite being "de-Medievalized", right?

[Tindalos]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ralios has a wide number of different noble titles, a bit of a hogepodge, borrowed from Orlanthi and Western alike, but the most notable local title is Archon, which is also controversial due to its association with the Stygian Empire. That being said, it's the title of an office of the leader, rather than a "rank", iirc.

I assume "Talar" in general serves as a "noble rank" in the West. More specifically... they still use Dukes and Counts and Barons despite being "de-Medievalized", right?

Correct, page 379 of the guide has a list of titles used in Ralios.

It mentions duke and count are originally titles from the Middle Sea Empire. (Belintar also had a duke in charge of each of the sixths, with the term having the same providence IIRC)

Dukes were originally military commanders of a particular prefecture, while counts were governors of a city or province. (It also notes that these, and others, are translations of the Safelstran term into English for clarity. Like how Clan Chief and Tribal King are translations of the Theyalan term "Dar." Or the Dara Happan title "Ern Azali baka est ja" becoming Emperor.)

[Joerg]

Then there are kings, and in between princes.

In the West, the king is about the highest authority you can get. There used to be an Emperor of the Middle Sea, but those times are gone.

Princes in the West appear to be the next highest tier of nobility, especially when not prince by virtue of birth to a king and queen but by other means (still noble birth, of course - strictly Talar caste here).

Duke, Baron, Count are lower highest ranks of the administration.

City states like in Ralios dpn't usually have kings or queens, with the exceptions of Kustria (the Tournament King) and Galin (the Horse Queen). Compare the "mere" duchies of Nolos or Pasos or the autarchies of Sentanos.

 

The Hill Barbarians have tribal kings (Orlanth Regulus, really) lording over a couple of clans, Princes of confederations who are also called kings, (Vingkotling rite kings), and finally you have Sacred Kings (whose domain may be as little as a Triaty or as large as Kerofinela, Kethaela and Saird) or the Godking which approach the power and following of a King of Seshnela or Fronela.

The Kings of Lankst, Jonatela, Jorstland or other such entities with some western influence have realms that dwarf those of most Barbarian princes.

The Sairdite kings are somewhat similar to the Hill Barbarian ones, but may differ in other areas. The Citadel Kings of Balazar are somewhere in the region of tribal kings, but nominally lording over huge stretches of land (while in reality they often just lord over their citadel and the pig fields outside).

 

Horse nomad kings are sacred kings and the tribal leaders, with the tribe about five times the size of a midget Kerofinelan tribe. The clan chiefs of the Grazers are roughly the equivalent of tribal kings of Sartar.

The Enerali kings were more in the style of horse nomad kings, with all of Ralios (and Tanisor/Fornoar) ruled by just four kings. Much lower population densities in those times, but clearly a very large territory claimed by them.

Peloria outside of Dara Happa and/or before Dara Happa had kings, e.g. the Red King in the Naveria story, and entities like King Bear in southern Doblian.

The Carmanian ruler aka Shah or Padishah (unless that has been revoked) basically is a Western model king.

The Zaranistangi had kings, whereas the Artmali had emperors. Doraddi appear to have temporary kings as warleaders.

 

The Kingdom of Ignorance has yet another type of King, and then there are entities like the Monkey King.

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Doraddi appear to have temporary kings as warleaders.

The Doraddi kings are unusual in Doraddi society, because while Doraddi in general are semi-nomadic, the kings are associated with a specific geographical area, usually a specific river valley or oasis. They get voted in or out (in Jolar and Kothar anyway) but 

Quote

The king is chosen by the women, and not the men, though the king must be from the requisite lineage. The king may be dismissed at any time by the women, except in Tarien where the appointment is for life.

(from GtG pg 22)

They aren't specifically war leaders - most of the time, they are more or less the opposite, as they must please the women, who mostly shun warlike cults and mostly (as members of the Faranar or Aleshmara traditions) are far more interested in wealth and trade (and in Doraddi society, war is usually a fairly poor way to generate wealth - the Kresh may, however, have changed that). Of course, they may also coordinate responses to other threats, such as bandits and monsters and angry fiwan or non-humans, so the warriors usually have jobs to do, but a true (as opposed to symbolic or ritual) war is unusual. 

Note that besides being voted out of office by the women, kings also have to consider that many of the inhabitants of their land are semi-nomadic. If there is a shortage of food, or if a nearby valley is obviously doing much better, entire households will just up and leave. War will, of course, attract some people, but it also puts of others - and the people it attracts, mostly young unmarried Vangono men of the warrior societies, are generally considered trouble makers. 

I think the King of the Arbennan, a sort of king of kings/overking, is usually a position of limited practical importance, consulted to organise the settling of disputes between lesser chiefs and kings. Only in unusual times of war do they become really important in day to day matters.