Non-Uz & Bugs

[g33k]

Do any (all) of the non-Uz with "bug-ish" associations have any linkages over to Trolls?  I'm looking at Wasp Riders, of course... But also, shockingly, chaos-ridden Scorpionmen...

[Sir_Godspeed]

What about the Timinits?

[boztakang]

I am not aware of any explicit uz/wasprider connection. I would not be terribly surprised if the waspriders had certain traditions or practices that might look suspiciously gorakiki-ish to a sufficiently interested Godlearner. I doubt that either Uz or Wasprider cultists would agree with that godlearner that there was any similarity between their respective worships.

The Uz Krolar cult are dedicated chaos-fighters, and particularly hateful of scorpion-men. Unfortunately, like in many such cases, it can be difficult for humans to distinguish between chaotic Scorpion-men and the (totally fine and upstanding) Scorpion-Uz fighting them. 

[boztakang]

Timinits and Uz are both found in Jrustela, but I don't think they have any particular alliance. Proving a connection (or refuting it) sounds like a job for PC adventurers, with the Ultimate Truth of the situation very much dependent on how well the Questing Heroes roll at critical junctures of their adventures...

[Kloster]

Aren't scorpions (and thus scorpionmen) arachnids in Glorantha? After all, they have 8 limbs. If yes, they are not insects and not connected to Gorakiki.

Kloster

[Akhôrahil]

It's more of an indirect connection via the Darkness rune, I would imagine?

[GianniVacca]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's more of an indirect connection via the Darkness rune, I would imagine?

Yes IMG there is a clear connection between insects (& spiders) and the Darkness rune. Timinits and Scorpionmen are an exception though.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, GianniVacca said:

Yes IMG there is a clear connection between insects (& spiders) and the Darkness rune. Timinits and Scorpionmen are an exception though.

In case of Scorpionmen, not really - they are of Chaos and Darkness.

Timinits are rather enigmatic - they don't worship any deities or greater spirits, and they don't tell much about their origins. Apparently they were friendly to and even integrated into the Jrusteli society, and also spread to Kumanku and Umathela in that period. The Timinits of modern Jrustela don't seem to remember such a period.

We only know about the Imago stage of the Timinits, and lack information about their larvae. Larvae usually are the embodyments of Darkness - their lives are about eating and satiating their ever remaining hunger, and about growth.

[Sir_Godspeed]

It's possible they merged from Wonderhome independently of the Kyger Litor-kin (trolls and such), and popped up around the ruined remnants of Lodril's or Mostal's Mountain (the timeline and geography here is fuzzy to me, but hey) and therefore have a radically different self-understanding.

[Psullie]

I imagine that Uz view scorpionmen in a similar way that beastmen view broo 

[GianniVacca]

17 hours ago, Psullie said:

I imagine that Uz view scorpionmen in a similar way that beastmen view broo 

or in the same way that humans view broo: fellow mammals-- but Chaos-tainted!

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

or in the same way that humans view broo: fellow mammals-- but Chaos-tainted!

Heck, with the new background for the Broo, they arguably even have a Storm-elemental background.

[Darius West]

Apiary and silk making represent two forms of human industry based on insects.  Neither is intrinsically linked to the Uz either, as far as I am aware. 

There is a question I would like to ask however, and that is why Gorakiki Ant is not more prominent.  Does Gorakiki Ant even exist?  It isn't in the new write-up for that cult.

[Sir_Godspeed]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Apiary and silk making represent two forms of human industry based on insects.  Neither is intrinsically linked to the Uz either, as far as I am aware. 

It would be cool to have them used as examples of how Uz cultures enriched human ones in the Lesser Darkness, though.

Heck, apiaries might even serve as an example of some long-lost cooperation between darkness beings and the Aldryami. Or, failing that, an example of a darkness being "converting" to something more solar and enriching the plants in a wholly new way. I can envision it now: a daughter of gorakiki, a goddess of bees, meets with Aldrya and makes a compact: supply her children with sustenance, and they will forever spread her seed, better than King Storm ever could.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Apiary and silk making represent two forms of human industry based on insects.  Neither is intrinsically linked to the Uz either, as far as I am aware. 

Trolls produce spider silk rather than insect silk. It is one of their most valuable trade goods.

The only apiary connection the trolls show are the giant bees of the Vale of Flowers, mainly the domain of the Bee Tribe, the first branch off the First Tribe of Dagori Inkarth.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

There is a question I would like to ask however, and that is why Gorakiki Ant is not more prominent.  Does Gorakiki Ant even exist?  It isn't in the new write-up for that cult.

According to Anaxial's Roster, the ants were hit by a curse which made them shrink to almost nothing as they ascended the surface world, crippling the otherwise most powerful of the descendants of Gorakiki. A few ants managed to bypass the curse of shrinking, but gone are the good old times when the worker ant rivalled the mantis steeds. At a guess, the bees were hit with a similar curse.

All the insects that rely on flowering plants would either have to have predated the exodus of Hell after it was burnt out by Bijiif, or postdate the Greater Darkness. On the other hand, their maggot forms would have been right a home in the Eat and Be Eaten of the Greater Darkness.

[boztakang]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Apiary and silk making represent two forms of human industry based on insects.  Neither is intrinsically linked to the Uz either, as far as I am aware. 

Uz are not over fond of complex crafting, so Silk fabric (really, cloth of any sort) is not something they can be bothered to make, though silk nets and ropes are quite common.

The Bee tribe is one of the Great Tribes of Dagori Inkarth, and a hive of Giant Bees appears prominently in the Grubfarm adventure of the old Into the Troll Realms. Upcoming material also mentions their importance. (though sadly, it doed not revisit good ol' Protosome Blackbite and co.)

Quote

[in Dagori Inkarth] Bees are the second most important insect, though mostly confined to the Vale of Flowers. The Bee Tribe is home to tens of thousands of man-sized honey bees, which produce vast quantities of honey, along with many stranger and more magical substances. The constant caravans of Honey from the Bee Tribe to the Castle of Lead may be one source of the persistent rumors of an unrivaled cache of Gold within that structure.

 

I do think trolls use lots of Insect Glues, Acids, and Chitin in various ways that Humans by and large classify as "Magic". I suspect that many of their more precarious-looking structures are far sturdier than they appear on account of assorted insect-derived glues and cements used in their "construction".

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

There is a question I would like to ask however, and that is why Gorakiki Ant is not more prominent.  Does Gorakiki Ant even exist?  It isn't in the new write-up for that cult.

Giant Ants DO seem a bit under-represented in Genertela, and I do not at this point know the exact mythic reason for that. If pressed, I might guess that the Ant Queen was one of the many victims of the Chaos Siege of the Castle of Lead (destruction of Genert's garden). Or, it could be an ancient curse as Joerg mentions above. 

On a more practical level, I suspect that Ants may be organized and advanced enough to make them inconvenient for trolls to exploit the way they do other insects. I am personally very fond of ants however, and they do get a mention as being more prolific in parts of Pamaltela:

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Jungle trolls celebrate the variety of Gorakiki’s children, and great diversity of form and species can be found even within a single nest of worshippers. Many of the insects here defy classification and may take on outlandish shapes and garish colors unknown beyond their particular nest. Giant Ants are quite common in the region and are often worshipped and given sacrifice, though they are treated more as uncertain allies or a force of nature than as pets or livestock. 

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, Darius West said:

Neither is intrinsically linked to the Uz either, as far as I am aware. 

By this earlier comment I meant that the human industry didn't apparently seem to derive from troll industry.

In terms of other insect based industries, I have been giving the matter a bit of thought.  Chitin is essentially almost identical to cellulose, which means that it can probably be boiled in salt water and reshaped.  As a material it would be more brittle than leather and a lot less flexible; far closer to wood in its properties, but never as dense. 

Bug wings, that are transparent to translucent, and could be used as a stand-in for glass of plastic, save that there is no plastic in Glorantha and glass is likely about the same price.  Bug wings might be used on visors to prevent water getting in your eyes, or to create see-through pouches.

When making spider silk, it is interesting to note that the adhesive properties of the material are from microfibrils, not from any chemical adhesive.  This would mean that trolls would probably chew the microfibrils off, unless they wanted to keep all or part of the material sticky.  Spider Silk would probably make quite a good glue substitute for organic materials.

As to resins, there are many uses for them, but giant termite resins would probably be amazingly good for enhancing the strength of bricks and mortar.  It is likely that chitin, if boiled down would be useful in this role too.

Xiola Umbar priestesses may be able to use prepared insect blood aka "hemolymph" as a form of wound treatment to stop infection, and potentially to even counter the effects of a Seal Wound spell if the Priestess learns the technique in a Hero Quest.

Obviously Insects have loads of venoms and acids that would be of value to alchemists.  This may well prompt mostali raids on Troll insecticulture sites.

[Joerg]

Some of these applications were already discussed in an earlier thread:

with troll insect technology mentioned at the bottom of that rather lengthy rant, and if memory serves me right in some of the subsequent clarifications.

 

If you can soften and reshape chitin by boiling it in water (using tubs and hot stones, although those hot stones require secret ZZ or Gadblad magics), you could layer it on already shaped pieces and build form-fitting multi-layer carapace armor. The uz equivalent of Storm Trooper armor.

Using special enzymes harvested from maggots by Gorakiki tenders might do the same trick without using heat.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Joerg

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

In terms of other insect based industries, I have been giving the matter a bit of thought.  Chitin is essentially almost identical to cellulose, which means that it can probably be boiled in salt water and reshaped.  As a material it would be more brittle than leather and a lot less flexible; far closer to wood in its properties, but never as dense. 

Assuming that Gloranthan chitin behaves like RW chitin. Considering the size of Gorakiki bugs and the RW limitations of endoskeletons and spiracel-based breathing, there is definitely some fundamental differences in play somewhere.

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Assuming that Gloranthan chitin behaves like RW chitin. Considering the size of Gorakiki bugs and the RW limitations of endoskeletons and spiracel-based breathing, there is definitely some fundamental differences in play somewhere.

I agree, there are differences.  The primary differences will be in insect respiration in Glorantha, but that has to do with how Air Runes behave differently to oxygen, and allows the bugs to grow to far larger sizes.  Chitin is actually superior to bone in most respects.  It is a little more fragile (bones mineralize and have more density) but heals far faster, but it would require more calories to maintain.

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

... boiling it in water (using tubs and hot stones, although those hot stones require secret ZZ or Gadblad magics) ...

I know that hot stones in containers is a RW tech, but in Glorantha (using magic) I don't see any reason the container itself couldn't be the physical source of the heat.

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

I know that hot stones in containers is a RW tech, but in Glorantha (using magic) I don't see any reason the container itself couldn't be the physical source of the heat.

Mainly because trolls and heat aren't on good terms with one another. You would need a dangerous Fire-eating Zorak Zorani or a crazed Gadblad smith or an Argan Argar volcano tamer to produce heat.

The use of digestive juices on the other hand is a very Darkness approach, and I would place the art of chitin-shaping firmly in their hands, and possibly in the appendages of some of the timinits.

The result would be a stiffer form of linothorax, a bronze age version of duraplast.

 

There may be magical brass cauldrons that require no fire beneath them to heat their contents. Most certainly Mostali-built, and possible in troll possession as plunder, but troublesome plunder that will attract Gremlins and Gobblers. Which brings up the question: how do Mostali constructs taste to trolls, and how intoxicating are gremlin or gobbler tartare to the uz?

(And while I am at uz culinary appreciation, how does pottery compare to raw clay in taste and nutrients?)

[boztakang]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Mainly because trolls and heat aren't on good terms with one another. You would need a dangerous Fire-eating Zorak Zorani or a crazed Gadblad smith or an Argan Argar volcano tamer to produce heat.

The use of digestive juices on the other hand is a very Darkness approach, and I would place the art of chitin-shaping firmly in their hands, and possibly in the appendages of some of the timinits.

The result would be a stiffer form of linothorax, a bronze age version of duraplast.

Very much this, though I am personally also quite comfortable with a simple "they use magic" - either to convince the bugs to grow in the right shape (gorakiki can be quite accommodating that way) or to directly shape the chitin afterwards. In fact, i'm much more comfortable with a troll singing songs to the bug spirits to make his armor fit right, than with Uz using heat in mundane crafting.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

There may be magical brass cauldrons that require no fire beneath them to heat their contents. Most certainly Mostali-built, and possible in troll possession as plunder, but troublesome plunder that will attract Gremlins and Gobblers. Which brings up the question: how do Mostali constructs taste to trolls, and how intoxicating are gremlin or gobbler tartare to the uz?

I think Dwarf constructs generally taste rather unpleasant - like undead, almost, but without the delicious maggots. But the Dwarves themselves are soo intoxicating it makes all the thankless nilmerg-smashing worthwhile. 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

(And while I am at uz culinary appreciation, how does pottery compare to raw clay in taste and nutrients?)

Clay isn't a whole lot more tasty for Uz than it is to us. They'll eat it, of course, because it can be eaten, but it's not very yummy. Pottery is Burnt clay. Nasty stuff, but could be choked down if there is simply nothing better available. It's fun to smash, though, so there is that at least.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, boztakang said:

Quote

There may be magical brass cauldrons that require no fire beneath them to heat their contents. Most certainly Mostali-built, and possible in troll possession as plunder, but troublesome plunder that will attract Gremlins and Gobblers. Which brings up the question: how do Mostali constructs taste to trolls, and how intoxicating are gremlin or gobbler tartare to the uz?

I think Dwarf constructs generally taste rather unpleasant - like undead, almost, but without the delicious maggots. But the Dwarves themselves are soo intoxicating it makes all the thankless nilmerg-smashing worthwhile. 

Veering far from the original topic (though it looks like we're pretty much agreed on troll manufacturing), aren't Clay Mostali constructs, too? I had the impression that nilmergs, gremlins and gobblers used the same kind of flesh that was used on the Clay Mostali (which are acknowledged as tasty or at least intoxicating snacks). Not quite so sure about the Jolanti stone creatures - their stone might be more tasty than normal stone, but that's really comparing two brands of vegemite if you are not from Down Under.

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Veering far from the original topic (though it looks like we're pretty much agreed on troll manufacturing), aren't Clay Mostali constructs, too? I had the impression that nilmergs, gremlins and gobblers used the same kind of flesh that was used on the Clay Mostali (which are acknowledged as tasty or at least intoxicating snacks). Not quite so sure about the Jolanti stone creatures - their stone might be more tasty than normal stone, but that's really comparing two brands of vegemite if you are not from Down Under.

I just read the Glorantha Sourcebook section on Mostali, and it, like the Guide before it, is frustratingly vague about this.

First off, a lot of the texts are, at least to my eye, quite poor at consistently differentiating the eight True Mostali from Clay Mostali (Dwarfs). Secondly, the illustrative images we get of the Mostali in the Guide show radically different bodies, but calls them (for example) "Iron Dwarf" and not "Iron Mostali" in the picture text, iirc., so it seems that even Clay Mostali will appear very, very different based on their caste, even if these differences are only approximations based on what the surviving Clay Mostali remember of their True Mostali forebears. The Sourcebook is also frustrating in that it insists that the Dwarfs are all of a single race ("unlike elves and trolls"), and then goes on to list all the different kinds of True Mostali, which at very least SEEMS contradictory, because it also clearly states that the original Mostali were all made through different processes from different sources, which kinda implies a kind of "racial" difference. All Clay Mostali (modern Dwarfs) left might be "of the same race" (though different castes, and if the illustrative images show modern dwarfs and not True Mostali, then certainly highly differentiated ones), which is fine, but they're not the only *Mostali* left. There are some True Mostali left as well. Why don't they count as "different races"? No idea.

But yeah, this is all a bit of a sidetrack.
 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed