This is what I associate with Orlanthi and Bronze Age (although it, too, has ships)

[Joerg]

I stumbled across this video about the Nordic Bronze Age which sums up where many of my ideas for Bronze Age Orlanthi come from, although I would take a fair number of the "Indogermanic" and God Learner hypothesis with big grains of doubt.

A number of interesting facts remain, like access to the Pannonian bronze through trade independent from the sea trade in the Mediterranean, cultural exchange through the amber trade, etc.

I'll look out for more info on the Pannonian Bronze Age, which would be even more pertinent, but when looking at things like the presumed battle of the Tollense Crossing and migration evidence as with the Egtvedt Girl (mentioned in the video), that battle makes a lot more sense.

As for missing structures: with quarriable stone being absent, the archaeological record relies mainly on holes in the ground. The part of Germany where I live has virtually no bedrock (there are two exceptions, one former mountain of gypsum, formerly crowned by a stone castle, that was quarried down to half its size, and a high reaching chalk area near Itzehoe which is now quarried for cement), but there used to be 100 families of landed knights (who had special liberties in the original counties, then duchies), each of them with at least one fortified homebase. None of those castles survives, in a few places some holes in the ground did survive the intensive plowing. Any grandiose structures from the Bronze Age would have suffered the same fate.

That's why I have my difficulties with the descendants of Durev the carved man being so avid masons. Dwarves make up for a lot, but honestly, Clearwine in Cypriotic or Thessalian architecture does feel as wrong as would Roman opus cementitia. Fortunately, most other Orlanthi appear to be carpenters rather than masons. Giving the 3rd century Berennethtelli something like Peter Jackson's Rohirrim splendor wouldn't be wrong for my Glorantha, and would make the "steadburning" that claimed Brolarulf only that way more impressive.

 

Edit: Silly me. Here's the link:

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Joerg
facepalm

[soltakss]

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I stumbled across this video about the Nordic Bronze Age

Do you have a link for the video?

[soltakss]

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Edit: Silly me. Here's the link:

Thanks!

[Julian Lord]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

As for missing structures: with quarriable stone being absent, the archaeological record relies mainly on holes in the ground. The part of Germany where I live has virtually no bedrock (there are two exceptions, one former mountain of gypsum, formerly crowned by a stone castle, that was quarried down to half its size, and a high reaching chalk area near Itzehoe which is now quarried for cement), but there used to be 100 families of landed knights (who had special liberties in the original counties, then duchies), each of them with at least one fortified homebase. None of those castles survives, in a few places some holes in the ground did survive the intensive plowing. Any grandiose structures from the Bronze Age would have suffered the same fate.

That's why I have my difficulties with the descendants of Durev the carved man being so avid masons.

But surely there is no similar difficulty of access to stone in mountainous Dragon Pass ?

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

But surely there is no similar difficulty of access to stone in mountainous Dragon Pass ?

Obviously not, but after the Inhuman Occupation, there is an over-abundance of lumber that needs to be cleared for pasture. While some of that may be consumed or exported as charcoal, once you have all those beams lying about, why not use them for construction?

I may have different ideas about the usabilty of the Dragon Pass bedrock for building purposes, too. IMO neither Kero Fin nor her children are made of easily quarriable rock, but harder, basal material.

And in my region, despite that lack of bedrock, we do have megalithic buildings in the region - the bigger rocks come pre-quarried, but rounded from the grinding process.

Seeing pre-Bronze Age Egyptian sculpture, working porphyry and granite with copper tools, I do wonder how they did it - grind away at it with the same material, just like diamond cutters still do for lack of a harder material?

[Julian Lord]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Seeing pre-Bronze Age Egyptian sculpture, working porphyry and granite with copper tools, I do wonder how they did it - grind away at it with the same material, just like diamond cutters still do for lack of a harder material?

Gloranthan Bronze is IIRC harder than the RW equivalent.

But FWIW I agree with your point about the use of wood in architecture, after all in RW it remained the main construction material right up to the Industrial Revolution.

A "carpenter" in the Ancient World was basically an architect too.

Encyclopedia Britannica has a useful concise examination of these questions : https://www.britannica.com/technology/building-construction/Bronze-Age-and-early-urban-cultures

[womble]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's why I have my difficulties with the descendants of Durev the carved man being so avid masons. Dwarves make up for a lot, but honestly, Clearwine in Cypriotic or Thessalian architecture does feel as wrong as would Roman opus cementitia. Fortunately, most other Orlanthi appear to be carpenters rather than masons. Giving the 3rd century Berennethtelli something like Peter Jackson's Rohirrim splendor wouldn't be wrong for my Glorantha, and would make the "steadburning" that claimed Brolarulf only that way more impressive.

It is perhaps worth noting that Clearwine, in RQG's Adventure Pack, is described as being a structure built by a minor Goddess in the Lesser Darkness, inhabited by humans in the First Age, and taken over by EWF in the second. Colymar started cleansing the Draconic taint in 1325, apparently, and moved in once redecoration was complete...

[Grievous]

One thing I've been wondering is how would Red Cow Fort from Coming Storm look like if it was written up a few years later. Should it be more along Clearwine's aesthetic direction? I'm not sure if it had any relevance during the EWF, or was it's time of relevance only during the old Vingkotling times, so not sure how to think about the ruins/walls/etc there.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Grievous
typo

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, womble said:

It is perhaps worth noting that Clearwine, in RQG's Adventure Pack, is described as being a structure built by a minor Goddess in the Lesser Darkness, inhabited by humans in the First Age, and taken over by EWF in the second. Colymar started cleansing the Draconic taint in 1325, apparently, and moved in once redecoration was complete...

Thanks for that pointer. I am a little behind in reading up the newest material.

Orgorvale was more a heroic queen than a goddess, daughter of Vingkot (himself a demigod) and granddaughter of Tada through the elder of the two daughters given to Vingkot as wives ("the summer wife"). Together with her as heroic foreigner husband Ulanin the Rider she led one of the three Summer Tribes of the Vingkotlings. Her tribe ruled the entirety of "Old Sartar" south of the Creek and east of the Creek-Stream River, and when the Vingkotling kingdom faltered in the Great Darkness, the tribe re-emerged as one of the Heortling tribes and lasted until after the Tax Slaughter, to disappear into the nebulous history of the EWF.

For a measure of the heroic or demigod status of the Vingkotlings - when Orlanth summoned the Ring of the Vingkotlings via the winds to aid him at the shores of Luathela, the responding warriors stood man to man against the Luatha - the same creatures who destroyed the Kingdom of Old Seshnela with just a shipload of warriors and workers, ending the Second Age.

Otherwise, little is known about Orgorvale or her husband, outside of the material in the Red Cow campaign. Ulanin is mentioned once or twice in the Dragon Pass - Land of Thunder gazetteer for Volsaxiland, and has recently been suggested as a hero cult or subcult for Orlanth under RQG rules. It isn't clear whether Ulanin's ancestry is tied to the Nivorah exodus or to the Galanini mythic cycle of Ralios, or possibly both. If there is something like chains of events of these Godtime activities, her marriage to Ulanin followed that of Redalda to Beren (which is part of the marriage of Redaylda and Elmal, or vice versa).

Their ancient royal seat at Ulaninstead probably had quite a bit of the Rohirrim splendor I mentioned above for the Berennethtelli, too. Before the council of Orlanthland introduced the Pure Horse Folk into Prax, her tribe would have been the closer source of horses to hate for the Praxians, with the Pentans only discovered in the Imperial Age as the Hidden Greens of the Wastes were explored by the Praxians.

Looking at the Red Cow material, we know about the presence of giants nearby, and of hostile interaction. At the same time, we have occasional builder services rendered by giants. Never Elder Giants, although one of the mountains overlooking Boldhome may come close.

Clearwine differs significantly in architectural style from ancient Earth places like the Paps, Ezel, or some of the Oasis altars (places built by or with the aid of Orgorvale's maternal grandfather, Tada). It might be of a similar cast as Old Karse or one of the earlier wall periods of Nochet.

[M Helsdon]

25 minutes ago, Grievous said:

One thing I've been wondering is how would Red Cow Fort from Coming Storm look like if it was written up a few years later. Should it be more along Clearwine's aesthetic direction? I'm not sure if it had any relevance during the EWF, or was it's time of relevance only during the old Vingkotling times, so not sure how to think about the ruins/walls/etc there.

Probably not - Red Cow Fort is a clan rather than a tribal center, and is built upon the remnants of a Giant fort.

The 'Nordic' Bronze Age was significantly poorer than that in the Near East, due to a lack of trade routes and interaction between different cultures - it was on the far periphery of more sophisticated cultures in terms of goods and social organization and so is probably a model for poorer Orlanthi cultures than those in Dragon Pass.

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The 'Nordic' Bronze Age was significantly poorer than that in the Near East, due to a lack of trade routes and interaction between different cultures - it was on the far periphery of more sophisticated cultures in terms of goods and social organization and so is probably a model for poorer Orlanthi cultures than those in Dragon Pass.

Poorer in luxury goods, and possibly in the ubiquity of metal. On the other hand, they had a monopoly on amber, and such monopolies went a long way to bring in either riches or invaders.

The main items of the Bronze Age international trade away from the naval routes were bronze, copper and tin, and exotic luxuries for the elites to display and reinforce their status. All food, presumably almost all clothing items (which, due to the climate, weren't that many), and quite likely most other everyday articles were locally produced. Salt and top quality flintstone and easily carved minerals like jet or steatite may have been "bulk" trade items next to the metal. Dyes, exotic resins, and semi-precious and precious stones are traded mainly for ritual use by the elites.

We know that central and northern Europe were "poorer" in social organization due to the lack of the necessity for water management that climate change forced upon the riverine cultures. Quite different riverine conditions, as watching a few other videos of that series made clear. That reduced the need for record-keeping and literacy. Huge communal works like the mounds still occurred, but not for direct needs of survival, only as cultic practice. Water management reached the area only in the Roman Iron Age as the coasts needed fortification against rising sea levels (actually sinking ground levels, due to the seesaw effect caused by the absence of several tons of ice per square meter). All of that was handled by communities that would be regarded as small clans in Dragon Pass at best.

But then, that's the true difference between the Orlanthi and the lowland river cultures, too. The Orlanthi never were much of an irrigation culture, although Orlanth taming Oslira (another interpretation of the Aroka story, or Aroka aftermath) may have been recognized as such. Only Esrolia has similar levels of water management, and more of drainage than of irrigation.

 

The resettlement era of Dragon Pass is what I would qualify as one of the poorer Orlanthi cultures (compared to the international trade relations nurtured and then controlled by the House of Sartar). First and Second Council Dragon Pass and Orlanthland were some of the richest periods and regions in Orlanthi history, however, and the EWF drained all their subject areas for even more wealth.

 

One problem with bronze artefacts in the archaeological record is of course recycling. Any item not taken out of the daily usage would be melted up when no longer serving its purpose unless devoted to the dead or the gods. The same is true for glass (which is not really a Bronze Age material).

A lack of metal never was a feature of historical Dragon Pass (and wasn't much of an issue in Godtime, where you went to a master metalworker whenever you needed a new toy that you didn't have to plunder). Access to the metalworker was the real Godtime limit for full canoplies of armor, IMO. That goes for the introduction of the fully armored urban soldier by Daxdarius, too.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Very nice video. Like Joerg, this is probably to a degree how I see the Dragon Pass Orlanthi as well, although I also liberally mentally mix this with the Atlantic Bronze Age cultures, La Tene culture, and some Vendel Era/Iron Age Germanic stuff. I think I more and more realize that I am less interested in some hugely "factually" consistent system , and more about presenting a certain kind of aesthetic and "feel", if that makes any sense. EDIT: Although that "feel" should still ring true in some sense, of course, from both the perspective of the powerful, magical hero, and the peasant everyman.

I do enjoy the large Mycenean citadels that speak of ancient heritage and power, and I like the Bonze Age-style massive trading networks and elite prestige culture and god-kings... However, I also would like there to be room for wooden settlements, hill forts, etc. etc., local Iron Age-style processing traditions (Gloranthan Bronze not being an alloy), etc., and yes... trousers/breeks & hose.
 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The 'Nordic' Bronze Age was significantly poorer than that in the Near East, due to a lack of trade routes and interaction between different cultures - it was on the far periphery of more sophisticated cultures in terms of goods and social organization and so is probably a model for poorer Orlanthi cultures than those in Dragon Pass.

This confounds me a bit. In my admittedly short time as a Gloranthaphile, I've seen Sartar and (post-Resettlement) Dragon Pass be described as both a less developed and somewhat periphery Orlanthi culture (smaller clans and tribes, fewer cities, harsher climate, etc.), AND one of the more prestigious Orlanthi cultures (exceptional roadworks, some exceptional cities, hugely important area heritage, etc.). I'm not ruling out that both are possible, but it gets a bit whiplash-ey at times.

EDIT: Joerg went into some more detail about this, above. I don't have a lot more to add. Areas that are poor in some ways can be quite wealthy, or at least powerful, in others, especially in a non-Industrial setting.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[womble]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Thanks for that pointer. I am a little behind in reading up the newest material.

Orgorvale was more a heroic queen than a goddess, daughter of Vingkot (himself a demigod) and granddaughter of Tada through the elder of the two daughters given to Vingkot as wives ("the summer wife"). Together with her as heroic foreigner husband Ulanin the Rider she led one of the three Summer Tribes of the Vingkotlings. Her tribe ruled the entirety of "Old Sartar" south of the Creek and east of the Creek-Stream River, and when the Vingkotling kingdom faltered in the Great Darkness, the tribe re-emerged as one of the Heortling tribes and lasted until after the Tax Slaughter, to disappear into the nebulous history of the EWF.

For a measure of the heroic or demigod status of the Vingkotlings - when Orlanth summoned the Ring of the Vingkotlings via the winds to aid him at the shores of Luathela, the responding warriors stood man to man against the Luatha - the same creatures who destroyed the Kingdom of Old Seshnela with just a shipload of warriors and workers, ending the Second Age.

Otherwise, little is known about Orgorvale or her husband, outside of the material in the Red Cow campaign. Ulanin is mentioned once or twice in the Dragon Pass - Land of Thunder gazetteer for Volsaxiland, and has recently been suggested as a hero cult or subcult for Orlanth under RQG rules. It isn't clear whether Ulanin's ancestry is tied to the Nivorah exodus or to the Galanini mythic cycle of Ralios, or possibly both. If there is something like chains of events of these Godtime activities, her marriage to Ulanin followed that of Redalda to Beren (which is part of the marriage of Redaylda and Elmal, or vice versa).

Their ancient royal seat at Ulaninstead probably had quite a bit of the Rohirrim splendor I mentioned above for the Berennethtelli, too. Before the council of Orlanthland introduced the Pure Horse Folk into Prax, her tribe would have been the closer source of horses to hate for the Praxians, with the Pentans only discovered in the Imperial Age as the Hidden Greens of the Wastes were explored by the Praxians.

Looking at the Red Cow material, we know about the presence of giants nearby, and of hostile interaction. At the same time, we have occasional builder services rendered by giants. Never Elder Giants, although one of the mountains overlooking Boldhome may come close.

Clearwine differs significantly in architectural style from ancient Earth places like the Paps, Ezel, or some of the Oasis altars (places built by or with the aid of Orgorvale's maternal grandfather, Tada). It might be of a similar cast as Old Karse or one of the earlier wall periods of Nochet.

Thanks for the information about Orgovale. She features in the Adventure book....

[M Helsdon]

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This confounds me a bit. In my admittedly short time as a Gloranthaphile, I've seen Sartar and (post-Resettlement) Dragon Pass be described as both a less developed and somewhat periphery Orlanthi culture (smaller clans and tribes, fewer cities, harsher climate, etc.), AND one of the more prestigious Orlanthi cultures (exceptional roadworks, some exceptional cities, hugely important area heritage, etc.). I'm not ruling out that both are possible, but it gets a bit whiplash-ey at times.

Major roads, on major trade routes, impressive cities, a 'High-King' of multiple tribes, set in a highly magical region... Sartar is rich, which is one reason the Lunar Empire would find it cost effective to conquer. A poor region can't support multiple cities, or, as displayed in the Red Moon White Bear, armies capable of going toe-to-toe with a major empire.

In contrast, the Roman Empire found that conquering the barbarous Germania wasn't cost effective. Having one go, and then giving up wasn't the Roman way - the region had nothing to offer except slaves, and then not particularly useful ones.

A better model would be various cultures of Anatolia - for example the Hittites (who worshiped the Storm God) or Urartu. Both built roads, cities, fortifications, were up in the mountains. And the Urartuans had major wars with the lowlanders.

Edited February 25, 2019 by M Helsdon

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/24/2019 at 7:01 PM, Joerg said:

That's why I have my difficulties with the descendants of Durev the carved man being so avid masons. Dwarves make up for a lot, but honestly, Clearwine in Cypriotic or Thessalian architecture does feel as wrong as would Roman opus cementitia. Fortunately, most other Orlanthi appear to be carpenters rather than masons. Giving the 3rd century Berennethtelli something like Peter Jackson's Rohirrim splendor wouldn't be wrong for my Glorantha, and would make the "steadburning" that claimed Brolarulf only that way more impressive.

Agree.

I'm also not the happiest about the "greekification" that seems to be ongoing, although something could have a unique look if there's a mythic (or perhaps dwarven) explanation for it. Form follows function, and Dragon Pass climate isn't exactly Mediterranean. That flat roof is going to be a lot less fun with a couple of meters of snow on top of it. Courtyards also seem poorly adjusted to winter.

And you want to include something like Meduseld, I'd say that belongs in some heroquest and not the regular world, at least these days. (But that's mostly because of the massive scale - the basic idea is fine.)

Edited February 25, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Probably not - Red Cow Fort is a clan rather than a tribal center, and is built upon the remnants of a Giant fort.

It kinda is the closest thing they have to a tribal center, though?

Edited February 25, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Major roads, on major trade routes, impressive cities, a 'High-King' of multiple tribes, set in a highly magical region... Sartar is rich, which is one reason the Lunar Empire would find it cost effective to conquer. A poor region can't support multiple cities, or, as displayed in the Red Moon White Bear, armies capable of going toe-to-toe with a major empire.

In contrast, the Roman Empire found that conquering the barbarous Germania wasn't cost effective. Having one go, and then giving up wasn't the Roman way - the region had nothing to offer except slaves, and then not particularly useful ones.

It did have soldiers to offer, which might have been one reason why they kept invading it for two centuries after the disaster of the Varus battle, as shown by the finds of the Harzhorn battle. But it is true, none of the mineral deposits that were to be found in Germania had been accessed yet when the Romans entered, and the cost appeared higher than the return.

On the other hand, sitting still while abandoning most of their Biscayan coast as "Litus Saxonicus" rather than going against the root of that trouble was part of the downfall of the empire.

 

The Principality of Sartar was made rich, yes. The pre-Sartar Quivini tribes were at best well-to-do without a secure trade across the Pass guaranteed. Arim's Kingdom did offer such a thing while the Grazers remained friendly, which gave Tarsh a head start it lost in several civil wars and regained only in repeated Lunar conquests as part of Lunar political and magical maneuvering .

Sartar entered the region just as Illaro had died, and when it wasn't sure that his successors would make a successful dynasty. By the time Sartar had established his superior trade network, the dynasty was usurped by Hon-eel.

[M Helsdon]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It kinda is the closest thing they have to a Tribal center, though?

The Cinsina tribe is part of the Jonstown Confederation, and that city lies within their territory.

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It did have soldiers to offer, which might have been one reason why they kept invading it for two centuries after the disaster of the Varus battle, as shown by the finds of the Harzhorn battle. But it is true, none of the mineral deposits that were to be found in Germania had been accessed yet when the Romans entered, and the cost appeared higher than the return.

Probably punitive campaigns intended to keep the barbarians in order, not to conquer them. A standard imperial technique to prevent those outside the borders getting strong enough to attack; when empires become too weak to do that, there's the risk of the barbarians invading.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

The Cinsina tribe is part of the Jonstown Confederation, and that city lies within their territory.

True, but that's not quite the same thing. Tribal leadership isn't located there, surely?

Red Cow suggests that the tribal queen spends a highly disproportionate time in Red Cow Fort, and it also seems to be the most advanced (especially commercially, but also defensively?) of the clan settlements?

[M Helsdon]

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

True, but that's not quite the same thing. Tribal leadership isn't located there, surely?

Red Cow suggests that the tribal queen spends a highly disproportionate time in Red Cow Fort, and it also seems to be the most advanced (especially commercially, but also defensively?) of the clan settlements?

The presence of Jonstown as an economic center would have an impact upon lesser settlements.

Among the Cinsina, the tribal queen lacks a capital and instead performs a progress around her territory. Dangerford is a more significant and wealthier settlement (it even appears in the Argan Argar Atlas, when Red Cow Fort does not, being too small) but due to political complications, it isn't the political center during the rule of Queen Ivartha (the Dolutha clan are cursed, and won't survive the Hero Wars).

Dangerford has more defenses and is larger than Red Cow Fort.

Edited February 25, 2019 by M Helsdon

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

The presence of Jonstown as an economic center would have an impact upon lesser settlements.

Among the Cinsina, the tribal queen lacks a capital and instead performs a progress around her territory. Dangerford is a more significant and wealthier settlement (it even appears in the Argan Argar Atlas, when Red Cow Fort does not, being too small) but due to political complications, it isn't the political center during the rule of Queen Ivartha (the Dolutha clan are cursed, and won't survive the Hero Wars).

Good point about Dangerford!

[Grievous]

Well, then my question re: Red Cow's architecture might as well go for Dangerford - I wonder what that'd look like with "modern" Glorantha lenses. I hadn't really thought much about the settlements here with the idea that they were indeed re-settled ruins. Interestingly, IIRC (as I don't have my books here), Dangerford was first settled by the Red Cow clan after the settlement, which only lost it when the Dolutha came south over the river. That's a pretty significant loss to their holdings.

I'd love some more pictures about the various settlements around Sartar in the new art style. Once you pop, you can't stop!

[Jeff]

The weather in Dragon Pass is provided there in the rules book. For some RW comparisons:

Clearwine: Innsbruck or Sofia (although Clearwine gets more precipitation)

Boldhome: Davos

Furthest:  Munich Germany, Walla Walla Washington

Nochet: Venice, Charlotte, Washington DC.

Prax: Santa Fe

 

 

[Julian Lord]

I've always envisioned 1st and 2nd Age southern Maniria to have a very Mediterranean climate, at least 'til the goddess rolled over and it all sank into the depths.

But IMG, some of the more southerly parts of Sartar, and coastal Esrolia, and parts of Heortland have such climate and (varying) vegetation.

Greg anyway described the inhabitants of these regions as being generally olive- or darker skinned, with handsome black or darker or red or rare blonde hair and black, blue, or green eyes -- that is probably not at all coincidentally a very good description of the original Europeans prior to the arrival of the pale-skinned green/blue -eyed red/blonde -haired types that came in and changed most of everything towards about 1000-800 BC.

The RW "Latino" types are most like the original Europeans, and closest to how Greg described the Theyalan peoples of Dragon Pass and closest regions of southern Genertela. Though to be fair, so are the very pale-skinned, blue-eyed, black-haired Welsh. The so-called "celts", red/auburn-haired pale freckle-skinned pale-eyed and tall, are with the Finns and Scandivavians and Ukrainians the most like the later arrivals (though of course the Finns with typical national character refusal of general expectation are, after the Basques, the population with the second highest national average of Neanderthal DNA).

Edited March 18, 2019 by Julian Lord

[Lord High Munchkin]

7 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

The RW "Latino" types are most like the original Europeans

Actually the original Europeans were black skinned, oddly with straight dark hair and blue eyes - a colour combination that no longer exists anywhere.