People Related to Each Other in Dragon Pass c1620

[RHW]

Trying to figure out who's related by blood to whom among the important folks in Dragon Pass in the 1620s. There's a fair amount of intermarriage between the royal houses of the Grazelands, Sartar, and Tarsh.  So of the prominent folks we know, who's related to whom?

KALLYR: Daughter of Loricon Rastoronsson and Erenin Ironeyes. Great-great-great-granddaughter of Sartar and Enera Tor. She's 1/32nd? Grazelander so she's distantly related to Feathered Horse Queens Riches Without Tears, and also related to Single Matron Woman, who helped crush her first rebellion. Inkarne is a (very) distant cousin as is Temertain.

INKARNE: Daughter of King Moirades of Tarsh and FHQ Virkala Tor a.k.a. Riches Without Tears. Distant cousin of Kallyr and Temertain. Half sister to King Pharandros of Tarsh and Phargentes the Younger, future Moonson. Estal Donge is said to be Moirades' daughter as well, so could be a sister or half sister. With Bitter Heart and Single Matron Woman are her aunts. The Luminous Stallion King Jarsandron Tenherds might be her cousin, son of With Bitter Heart... but maybe not. The math doesn't work. More likely her uncle.

WITH BITTER HEART: FHQ, Aunt of Inkarne. Sister of FHQ Single Matron Woman. Daughter of FHQ Riches With Tears. Mother of LSK Jarsandron? The math doesn't work unless she had him at 13 or so. Possible but unlikely. So who is her son that she sent against her enemies? Is her son the worm that ate her womb? I think this is metaphorical and she's the "mother" of the Dragonrise so the Brown Dragon is her "son" and Jarsadron is probably her brother.

FAZZUR: Brother-in-law of Moirades. Uncle of Pharandros. Father of Onjur the Poet. Father of Annstad of Dunstop?

ESTAL DONGE: Lover of Temertain. Sister of Pharandros? Half or full? If she's Virkala Tor's daughter, that would make her Inkarne's sister and 1/2 Grazelander. Is Harsta Blacktooth her mother? Then she's Fazzur's niece and pure Tarshite.

ARGRATH: Honestly, I don't think he's related to anyone. I think his claim of descent from Sartar is every bit as much B.S. as his claim to Colymar. He's a tribeless stickpicker through and through.

PHARGENTES: Future Moonson. Son of Jar-eel and Moirades. Half brother of Inkarne, Pharandros, and maybe Estal.

I'm sure I'm missing some connections. Anyone?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by RHW
Grazelander relations are confusing, yo.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, RHW said:

Trying to figure out who's related by blood to whom among the important folks in Dragon Pass in the 1620s. There's a fair amount of intermarriage between the royal houses of the Grazelands, Sartar, and Tarsh.  So of the prominent folks we know, who's related to whom?

KALLYR: Daughter of Loricon Rastoronsson and Erenin Ironeyes. Great-great-great-granddaughter of Sartar and Enera Tor. She's 1/32nd? Grazelander so she's distantly related to Feathered Horse Queens Riches Without Tears, and also related to Single Matron Woman, who helped crush her first rebellion. Inkarne is a (very) distant cousin as is Temertain.

INKARNE: Daughter of King Moirades or Tarsh and FHQ Virkala Tor a.k.a. Riches Without Tears. Distant cousin of Kallyr and Temertain. Half sister to King Pharandros of Tarsh and Phargentes the Younger, future Moonson. Estal Donge is said to be Moirades' daughter as well, so could be a sister or half sister.

FAZZUR: Brother-in-law of Moirades. Uncle of Pharandros. Father of Onjur the Poet. Father of Annstad of Dunstop?

ESTAL DONGE: Lover of Temertain. Sister of Pharandros? Half or full? If she's Virkala Tor's daughter, that would make her Inkarne's sister and 1/2 Grazelander. Is Harsta Blacktooth her mother? Then she's Fazzur's niece and pure Tarshite.

ARGRATH: Honestly, I don't think he's related to anyone. I think his claim of descent from Sartar is every bit as much B.S. as his claim to Colymar. He's a tribeless stickpicker through and through.

PHARGENTES: Future Moonson. Son of Jar-eel and Moirades. Half brother of Inkarne, Pharandros, and maybe Estal.

I'm sure I'm missing some connections. Anyone?

Argrath certainly was exiled from the Orlmarth clan within weeks after his initiation at Age 14, presumably in the wake of the Starbrow Rebellion not that far away on Larnste's Table. His maternal lineage is not entirely improbable. Onelisin and her (known) daughters certainly got around, being Yinkini women. (Ironically, having to be around Ostling's wolf warriors may have been one motivation for Onelisin leaving Boldhome. But then, having had her way with too many of the visiting heads of tribes or cults may have placed parental "approval" for her decision to leave, too. Not being considered for succession after Sarotar's death certainly was another, major, component. IMO she left Boldhome shortly after Sarotar's death, although she still may have contributed to the assassination war with the Nochet families behind Sarotar's death.

There is the possibility for a female to leave unacknowledged children in other clans after a year marriage (actually slightly more than a year unless already pregnant at the wedding). While it is somewhat unusual for Yinkini to go through all that legal hassle to get a lay, it isn't unheard of. The Year Marriage mother doesn't play any role in the upbringing of the child, and while she leaves her bloodline with the kid, there is little else in terms of legal kinship resulting from this descent.

Old women have long memories on such matters, especially those in the Asrelia cult. A ninety year old crone in the Colymar tribe might have seen Onelisin and her daughters in person, apparently they lived somewhere isolated in the northern reaches of that tribe's lands.

 

Annstad definitely is Fazzur's son and Onjur's brother. I am unsure about Fazzur's wife, and any maternal connections of either Onjur or Annstad.

 

Leika's family connections are detailed in the Colymar booklet of the RQG GM package and give her (mostly severed) family relations to Londra of Londros, Naimless, and the (demised, Cradle-faring) Urrgh the Ugly, for a second-tier web of family links in Sartar. I don't quite recall which of the two female Humakti (or yet another one?) gave birth to the invisible child in the middle of battle... it doesn't appear in that family tree.

We have an idea of family links among the descendants of Queen Bruvala of Nochet, although only Samastina remains to take an active first row role in the Hero Wars after Hendira's demise. Two generations earlier, we get Dormal and various other notables in Kethaela. But then (from talking to Kris Hohls, who played Samastina in Jeff's HQG game) there are plenty of children conceived from various worthies in recent Gloranthan history. Possibly even a child of Broyan, definitely one from Argrath down the line. Ernalsulva being the daughter of Entarios and Hofstaring is a major plot element in the Sartar book HQ campaign. (The Red Cow campaign on the other hand stays outside of this web of blood relationships, limiting the contacts to up high to companionhood.)

I did play with maternal descent from House Norinel through a runaway renegade involved with Sarotar's daughter blamed for her running away, also emphasizing companions of the mighty over blood relations of them. Trying to write for a potentially all female party (or their hubbies) from across various tribes, there is always the possibility for some short term marriage or ritual fling with one of the male protagonists, of course, like e.g. either of Fazzur's sons. In the name of both diplomacy/religious call and desire...

 

There is little information on the various offspring of the powerful earth priestesses like Entarios the Cow or Samastina.

[Sir_Godspeed]

The Glorantha Sourcebook has several family trees for important Dragon Pass Dynasties - if that is any help. You might've already scoured it.

[M Helsdon]

16 hours ago, RHW said:

FAZZUR: Brother-in-law of Moirades. Uncle of Pharandros. Father of Onjur the Poet. Father of Annstad of Dunstop?

Fazzur married Harama of Bagnot, who was descended from the kings of Old Tarsh; they had two sons, Onjur and Annstad.

[RHW]

31 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Fazzur married Harama of Bagnot, who was descended from the kings of Old Tarsh; they had two sons, Onjur and Annstad.

Yep. It's pretty clear in the Glorantha Sourcebook that Annstad is Fazzur's son. I thought I read something at some point that put Annstad's parents in doubt. but I may be misremembering. 

Since Fazzur's father is a Blacktooth, I think he's also descended from the Tarshite Illaro Dynasty, so in addition to being his brother-in-law, Moirades is also his distant cousin. Not all that unusual in royal families.

KoDP Tarkolar and FHQ Verala Tor ("Mother of Lands") are full cousins, both are grandchildren of KoDP Sartar and FHQ Eneera Tor ("Reaches Furthest').

If we believe Argrath's geneology*, he and Inkarne are also distant cousins (as are he and Kallyr).

 

 

 

*I personally believe very little of what Argrath's Saga says about him beyond him being a stickpicker outlaw from Pavis who hooked up with Wolf Pirates.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Possibly even a child of Broyan, definitely one from Argrath down the line.

Twins in both cases, too! 🙂 

[Robin "RoM" Mitra]

On 3/20/2019 at 5:34 AM, RHW said:

I'm sure I'm missing some connections. Anyone?

IMO the connection to the Telmori is quiet interesting, too. I don't have any book at hand right now, but I think Kostajor is related to King Sartar both through maternal and paternal lines. His father was created/sired by Sartar. His mother Onelisen is the daughter of Saronil son of Sartar.
Onelisen comes from Tarsh, but I don't recall a connection to its royal family.

Onelisen is also connected to Prince Argrath (great grand mother?).

Kostajor had four or five children, most of which died at the hands of Jomes Wulf.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

IMO the connection to the Telmori is quiet interesting, too. I don't have any book at hand right now, but I think Kostajor is related to King Sartar both through maternal and paternal lines. His father was created/sired by Sartar. His mother Onelisen is the daughter of Saronil son of Sartar.

Ostling Four Wolves certainly wasn't Sartar's offspring, but he was remade in the Telmori image.

One of the most common ideas about his origin points north to Jajalaring Saird or Balazar, as a former dog worshipper. In all likelihood one of Sartar's companions who willingly underwent the change into lycanthropy, and his dogs into wolves. (Which would make his coupling with the Cat Witch even more scandalous - to Yinkini, that is. Lots of bad things have been said about Telmor, but he never was part of the Bad Dogs.)

Kostajor was even less Telmori than his father, although he most probably took a Telmori wife to sire the Helkos brothers, two of whom ended up as husband/bodyguards of Terasarin's daughters.

I'm even more curious about Harsaltar's mother, though.

1 hour ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

Onelisen comes from Tarsh, but I don't recall a connection to its royal family.

Huh? Onelisin is the older sister of Jarolar and Tarkalor (and younger sister to Sarotar). Her mother So(a)rana Millstone was a priestess or avatar of the Shaker's Temple in Tarsh, which could share the same ancestry as Arim's Twins through Sorana Tor, I suppose. Possibly a direct maternal lineage to Vestenbora.

1 hour ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

Onelisen is also connected to Prince Argrath (great grand mother?).

Yep. That's the less contradictory branch of his ancestry.

1 hour ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

Kostajor had four or five children, most of which died at the hands of Jomes Wulf.

Goram Whitefang (the youngest son) survived the assassination of his wife in Esrolia (Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes p.228) and leads the Boldhome Telmori bodyguard. We know of four sons, but not of any daughters. Nor do we know about other children of Ostling in the Telmori tribe.

Talking about these assassinations - how did the Lunar assassins sabotage Resurrection? Surely the House of Sartar would have had a few CA Healers in their retinue.

[jeffjerwin]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

Talking about these assassinations - how did the Lunar assassins sabotage Resurrection? Surely the House of Sartar would have had a few CA Healers in their retinue.

The same way that it's averted in other cases? cutting the soul into seven pieces and hiding the pieces in different places? Or, of course, using chaos magic to devour the ghost...

[metcalph]

15 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

The same way that it's averted in other cases?

The easiest way to avert resurrection is to take a body part such as the head.  

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The easiest way to avert resurrection is to take a body part such as the head.  

And might I recommend for your head disabling pleasure; The 2 volume Guide to Glorantha in handy blood resistant slip cover. Doubles as a great way to inflict head hits on those inflicted with zombieism in the real world as well!

Comes with the amazing Ronco "turnip twaddler" ™. this week only, act now, operators are standing by!

Edited March 30, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

We know that there was enough of Saraskos' body left to be exposed to the carrion birds, which doesn't sound like the head-taking was that successful. There's also the survival of Goram Whitefang, whose personal kinship to Sartar may have been unknown or regarded as irrelevant.

Using Chaos to do so probably is possible for Lunar assassins. But this entire business sounds almost like the soul-stealing morganti blades of Steven Brust's Dragaera novels.

[davecake]

On 3/30/2019 at 4:28 PM, Joerg said:

. But this entire business sounds almost like the soul-stealing morganti blades of Steven Brust's Dragaera novels.

I always assumed something like blades that cast Tap Pow or something similar were popular among Dart Competition assassins, and perhaps some more disreputable sorcerous types. 

The sword Wrath is an example of something similar to, if considerably lesser, than a Dragaeran Great Weapon. Wind Sword too. 

I once met Stephen Brust, at a convention in Austin Texas. I asked him how it felt to be approaching the end of the (planned to be) 19 book Taltos series. He just shrugged and said he was a heavy smoker, and wasn’t assuming he’d make it yet.