Egregious munchkinnery!

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

...would have (with RAW) forced the character to skip a round in order to spend, say, 8 or 10 MPs to double their skill (assuming a Humakti has above 80% in Sword).

If you're already in melee, this doesn't matter - your round is equally skipped as you can only cast or attack anyway.

[Lordabdul]

 

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

So my rules interpretation (which I believe is solid) goes like this: Any spell ("regardless of type") can be boosted. The phrasing "this is typically done to overcome" heavily indicates that there are other uses, and it also seems a bit pointless to allow boosting that has no possible effect.

Your reasoning is sound, but:

• There is precedent to "wasteful boosting", for when you figure that it's better to boost a spell and hopefully punch through Countermagic/Shield, than to see it fail and have to cast it again (especially with Rune magic where your Rune points are scarce).
• It says it's "typically done to overcome magical defense"... but Dispell/Dismiss Magic aren't magical defense -- they're magical offense.

I think Joerg's argument is that this boosting is done to pierce through active magical defenses, and then these extra magic points evaporate immediately (they don't stick around to keep the spell strong). I could see it work both ways (I don't think RAW ever clarify it one way or the other), but, mechanically speaking, I would agree that your interpretation seems to yield more interesting gameplay.

[Bill the barbarian]

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

How fast do spirit replenish their magic points? Full recovery after 24 hours just like humans?

 

Spirts yes, crystals are replenished by the attuned one placing MPs in the matrix,

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Your reasoning is sound, but:

• There is precedent to "wasteful boosting", for when you figure that it's better to boost a spell and hopefully punch through Countermagic/Shield, than to see it fail and have to cast it again (especially with Rune magic where your Rune points are scarce).
• It says it's "typically done to overcome magical defense"... but Dispell/Dismiss Magic aren't magical defense -- they're magical offense.

I think Joerg's argument is that this boosting is done to pierce through active magical defenses, and then these extra magic points evaporate immediately (they don't stick around to keep the spell strong). I could see it work both ways (I don't think RAW ever clarify it one way or the other), but, mechanically speaking, I would agree that your interpretation seems to yield more interesting gameplay.

1. I don't think "why would you allow something that is meaningless?" is a very strong argument, just an indication. Although in principle I suppose you could want to boost a defensive spell if it needs to go in right now - such as saving the life of an unconscious party member with Countermagic up by boosting your Heal so that it penetrates. 🙂

2. You mistake my meaning. That it says that boosting is "typically" used to overcome magical defence, indicates that there are atypical uses of boosting that are about something else (such as, perhaps, boosting the staying power of a spell).

Edited December 22, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

25 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Spirts yes, crystals are replenished by the attuned one placing MPs in the matrix,

Attunement is only for Powered Crystals, though -- there's nothing about attuning for normal spirit trapping/POW storing crystals.

But I think you're right that this would use the spell matrix rules for recharging (the RQG GM Adventures is reaaaaally missing a few sentences to explain how to charge crystals). Thanks!  This would mean that sucking MPs out of crystals is not a casual affair:

• Replenishing a 10 POW storage crystal could easily take up to a year, and would come at the price of not being able to sacrifice too much POW to your deities for Rune magic or other perks.
• Using crystals with trapped spirits is better (since the MPs recharge by the next day) but you can't suck those dry (otherwise the spirit is destroyed), they have to be built by the character (you can't find those as loot at the end of an adventure), which also sucks POW and takes a long time, and you're limited to CHA/3 spirits (3 crystals at most on average, maybe a couple more if you have a good score).

Edited December 22, 2019 by lordabdul

[HreshtIronBorne]

Just as the bones of dead gods provided Glorantha with bronze, the blood of dead and wounded gods provided crystals. These are marvelous items and are being found all 
the time. Magic crystals, being of the blood of the gods, are not subject to the effects of Divine Intervention spells. They are also indestructible.

They come in two varieties: POW storing and powered.

Determining the Nature of a Crystal

The only way to tell if a crystal is powered is by attempting to attune it, as described below. If the crystal is only a POW storing crystal, the adventurer will find they have just stored 
a magic point. If it is a powered crystal, the adventurer must overcome its POW, also described below.

To attempt this attunement, an adventurer must give up the attunement of any crystals they may have already attuned, because the attunement attempt will not work otherwise. If the adventurer then finds that the new crystal is a POW storing crystal, they can re-attune their old crystal, with no chance of failure but no chance of a POW gain roll. The adventurer may also abandon attunement of a new crystal and re-attune the old one.

There is no limit to the number of POW storing crystals an adventurer may have, although they may have only one attuned powered crystal at any time.

Spirit Trapping/ 
POW Storing Crystals

About 70% of the magic crystals are “empty.” They have no intrinsic power of their own. However, they can be used to either contain a spirit or to store magic points for an 
adventurer, in effect giving them an additional source of magic points which they can “charge” out of their own POW.

Each of these “storage” crystals has a limit to the magic points it can store. This found by rolling 2D6+3. This limit does not apply, however, to the POW of a spirit contained 
within a crystal. These crystals have two primary uses:

. Binding a Spirit: If one does not wish to put 
a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one 
must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal. Once 
a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the POW of the spirit is available for the use of the binder. The spirit may not throw spells itself or take other independent action unless the binder is attempting to control more spirits than their CHA will allow. If the bound spirit’s POW is reduced to 0, the spirit is destroyed. Note that gods and demigods may not be bound.

. POW Storage: The owner of a POW storing 
crystal may store magic points within it, up to 
the limit it will accommodate, for use as desired. These magic points can only be used once. Each point is gone until the owner replaces it. The magic points in a storage crystal can be used to cast spells, but they do not count in magic resis-tance. The crystal also cannot be used to replace any magic points that an adventurer has used from 
their own reserve to cast spells.

A magic crystal can be used to do only one of the two things listed above. It cannot be used to store a spirit and magic points as well under any circumstances. Binding a spirit into a crystal with POW in it will force the magic points out. It cannot be tucked into “corners” the spirit doesn’t fill.

If an adventurer owning a crystal with a spirit bound in it is killed, the spirit returns to the spirit plane immediately.

 

This is from the Rune Metal & Magic Crystals Preview for RQ:G that I have. 

[Bill the barbarian]

30 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Attunement is only for Powered Crystals, though -- there's nothing about attuning for normal spirit trapping/POW storing crystals.

 

You are both correct and wrong, as unpowered crystals (while not attuned) must be attempted to be attuned, including POW vs POW and if the...

Quote

 

Determining the Nature of a Crystal
The only way to tell if a crystal is powered is by attempting to attune it, as described below. If the crystal is only a POW storing crystal, the adventurer will find they have just stored a magic point. If it is a powered crystal, the adventurer must overcome its POW, also described below.

To attempt this attunement, an adventurer must give up the attunement of any crystals they may have already attuned, because the attunement attempt will not work otherwise. If the adventurer then finds that the new crystal is a POW storing crystal, they can re-attune their old crystal, with no chance of failure but no chance of a POW gain roll. The adventurer may also abandon attunement of a new crystal and re-attune the old one. There is no limit to the number of POW storing crystals an adventurer may have, although they may have only one attuned powered crystal at any time.

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

It seems like you could infer that it takes up to a week and a POW struggle to restore MP to a Crystal. Which might be decent for consistent POW checks if you have a big ol Dead Crystal. 

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

It seems like you could infer that it takes up to a week and a POW struggle to restore MP to a Crystal. Which might be decent for consistent POW checks if you have a big ol Dead Crystal. 

That only works once, after you have attempted to attune it you will always know what it is I assume. though the POW gain check sounds suspiciously egregiously munchkin-like to me!  :)>

well, will you look at where we are...

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[HreshtIronBorne]

From the Spirit Magic Spell Magic Point Enchantment

"It takes one melee round to store 1 Magic Point in an enchanted item."

Pg. 263 RQ:G 

So, you can fill all your MP into your crystals with some meditation before bedtime every night. Giving you on average 12 mp for a newish guy, 21 for a Baller Rune-Lord Priest, per day. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne
Completed a thought

[HreshtIronBorne]

I have made efficient use of spirits and crystals on this particular character. 

Crystals:

POW 10 - POW 12 Spirit

POW 10 - POW 12 Spirit

POW 9 - POW 15 Spirit

POW 6 - no spirit, new loot!

POW 3 - POW 18 Spirit

Edited December 22, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne
Numbers

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

The phrasing "this is typically done to overcome" heavily indicates that there are other uses, and it also seems a bit pointless to allow boosting that has no possible effect. What boosting does, is increase the strength of the spell - this, after all, is why a boosted spell can punch through Countermagic.

I don't think this is right. I think the word "Typically" is used because some specific spells can be boosted for other reasons (ie. Sword Trance). 

I think it's pretty clear after reading it that boosting a spell is for instantly overcoming Counterspell, Shield or similar spells. If you boost it with too many MPs (or didn't need to boost it at all) they are wasted. Boosting Countermagic or Shield would only be good for immediately piercing an existing version of the spell, for whatever reason (to renew, upgrade, downgrade, cast Shield over existing Countermagic, etc.). 

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by gochie

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

 

My initial (potentially naive?) reaction is that you are the one breaking the Glorantha ecosystem by allowing characters to walk around with 60+ magic points at their disposal with, seemingly, easy ways to refill them before the next combat/adventure. 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I actually went back to check on some more NPCs... some can gather up ~40 magic points if they spend their crystals and suck their bound spirits dry... a couple can get into the 60 range, so I guess it's not so far out than I thought... I also realize that I might be mistaken about POW storage crystals -- I originally thought that you had to sacrifice POW into them (making their replenishing very slow), but it might actually be super quick (a few hours of pouring magic points in them and getting them back). I can't find the rules for recharging crystals?

Now, if that scares ya...

these are RQ 1 and 2 BIG GUN characters, the original zero to hero types; no background skills, little gear, little if any magic to start with... (yes I know in RQ 2 the appendices had a way of getting a little previous experience and a way to get in debt with the guilds for a little gear and magic). Zeroes! Now what the hell will our big guns™ in the brave new world of the RQ G™ Hero Wars™   look like?

...and why are all the little munchkins pooing themselves?

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Austin]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

My initial (potentially naive?) reaction is that you are the one breaking the Glorantha ecosystem by allowing characters to walk around with 60+ magic points at their disposal with, seemingly, easy ways to refill them before the next combat/adventure. I might be missing something about RAW, but I would have never dreamed of having such power unless I'm playing some legendary figure. Is there any precedent for this? Even looking at Rune Lords in the old Runemasters book, they only typically have storage crystals for 10 to 20 POW. Am I missing something?

I think what you're missing is players making their own storage devices. The average point of POW with Magic Point Enchantment (or equivalent spell--which is available as a spirit magic spell or sorcery, not just a Rune enchantment--which is a whole other discussion) creates 5.5 points of MP storage. Early in our campaign, my players each sacced a point of POW to a single storage using the group enchant rules. Rolled pretty well, had a group storage of I think 40-ish MP?

Crystals are nice as POW-saving measures, but hardly necessary for developing MP batteries. All you need for a spirit is POW equal to their number of characteristics (so typically 3, INT, POW, CHA). Now, trapping a high-POW spirit isn't necessarily simple, but once it's done that's also pretty efficient. Especially if you can do it in a temple or somewhere else with defenses, or get a successful Moon Rune augment on the resistance table roll, etc. Summoning an elemental then binding it gives you both an MP battery and a useful tool--and lets you spend just 1 MP on Control [Elemental] instead of 2 RP on Command Cult Spirit to summon it.

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I'm his GM and I was annoyed at the obviously broken Sword Trance (which I have since house ruled only doubles the natural skill of the caster) because it makes literally EVERYTHING that doesn't carry dispell magic to be pointless.  Especially with the "reduce skills over 100%" stupidity rule.  I house ruled that BS the hell outta my game as well.

That's a nice, simple change; I'm moderately irritated I didn't figure it out myself. Do you play that Sword Trance just flat doubles, or that they still require MP?

I also don't play with the over-100 reduce at my table, because I think it's silly that Dodge 175% (very achievable with a lucky augment) can auto-dodge the Crimson Bat's ten-meter mouth. It also adds math to play, IMHO, and sometimes I don't wanna tell the players how much they need to reduce percentage. If they're going into combat against an unknown guy with a spear, I don't want them to get that meta-knowledge that he's got 150% or whatever by saying "Oh, btw, reduce your skills by 50."

[Austin]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

1. I don't think "why would you allow something that is meaningless?" is a very strong argument, just an indication. Although in principle I suppose you could want to boost a defensive spell if it needs to go in right now - such as saving the life of an unconscious party member with Countermagic up by boosting your Heal so that it penetrates. 🙂

2. You mistake my meaning. That it says that boosting is "typically" used to overcome magical defence, indicates that there are atypical uses of boosting that are about something else (such as, perhaps, boosting the staying power of a spell).

FWIW I'm fairly sure MPs can't "stabilize" a spell like you're suggesting (although I agree that the wording's vague, and should be more precise). Was this addressed in the Errata? I feel like it was, but can't recall off the top of my head.

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, Crel said:

FWIW I'm fairly sure MPs can't "stabilize" a spell like you're suggesting (although I agree that the wording's vague, and should be more precise). Was this addressed in the Errata? I feel like it was, but can't recall off the top of my head.

I'm not sure it would even be intentional, but I think the logic is sturdy from the way it's written:

1. You can boost any spell.
2. Boosting a spell increases its effective casting cost.
3. Higher casting cost makes dispelling more demanding. 

1) and 2) seem beyond dispute from the rules text (it's basically explicit), so any attack on the line of reasoning would have to be about 3).

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

So, you can fill all your MP into your crystals with some meditation before bedtime every night. Giving you on average 12 mp for a newish guy, 21 for a Baller Rune-Lord Priest, per day.

They way I read the rules, it seems that every time you replenish the crystal you have to sacrifice at least one point of POW (to get 1D10 magic points in the item). Since you can get that POW back only infrequently (on a seasonal cycle), it seems to me that you can't really refill those crystals so easily, otherwise you end up with a low POW. I mean, there's probably a reason why I can't find any NPC that has more than 1 or 2 crystals.

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

You are both correct and wrong, as unpowered crystals (while not attuned) must be attempted to be attuned

Ah so after looting the bad guy, you need to spend 1 week trying to attuning the crystal you found to figure out what it is? And then you have a lame 1 point POW storage crystal as a result? And so you need to spend another point of POW to get 1d10 more in it?

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

That only works once, after you have attempted to attune it you will always know what it is I assume.

Gotta label those crystals correctly! Don't mix them up!

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

though the POW gain check sounds suspiciously egregiously munchkin-like to me!

You only get to roll it once per season though, so it's hard to abuse, no?

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Early in our campaign, my players each sacced a point of POW to a single storage using the group enchant rules. Rolled pretty well, had a group storage of I think 40-ish MP?

Oh interesting, I didn't think about making group storage. Thanks!

1 hour ago, Crel said:

All you need for a spirit is POW equal to their number of characteristics (so typically 3, INT, POW, CHA). Now, trapping a high-POW spirit isn't necessarily simple, but once it's done that's also pretty efficient.

But that spirit will give you only a few MPs, right?

And if they manage to trap a powerful spirit, well I guess that's a good reliable source of MPs (although probably not more than a dozen), and they should be able to do awesome things!

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Summoning an elemental then binding it gives you both an MP battery and a useful tool--and lets you spend just 1 MP on Control [Elemental] instead of 2 RP on Command Cult Spirit to summon it.

Haha nice trick.

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Do you play that Sword Trance just flat doubles, or that they still require MP?

Why not place a limit on Sword Trance? So you can only spend, say, enough MPs to double it, or 20 MPs at most, or your POW score at most, or whatever? That would still be a dozen MPs spent to cast it. If it was doubling your skill for a simple 1 RP cost, that feels way too cheap to me.

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I also don't play with the over-100 reduce at my table

What rule do you use instead?

Edited December 22, 2019 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

17 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Ah so after looting the bad guy, you need to spend 1 week trying to attuning the crystal you found to figure out what it is? And then you have a lame 1 point POW storage crystal as a result? And so you need to spend another point of POW to get 1d10 more in it?

 

Yes, a week...but as to the rest

Quote

 

Spirit Trapping/POW Storing Crystals
About 70% of the magic crystals are “empty.” They have no intrinsic power of their own. However, they can be used to either contain a spirit or to store magic points for an adventurer, in effect giving them an additional source of magic points which they can “charge” out of their own POW.

Each of these “storage” crystals has a limit to the magic points it can store. This found by rolling 2D6+3. This limit does not apply, however, to the POW of a spirit contained within a crystal. 

 

Both of these quotes, this and the previous, are from the Adventurer Book from the GMs screen pages 121 and 122.

17 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

 

You only get to roll it once per season though, so it's hard to abuse, no?

1 hour ago, Crel said:

 

 

You only get to roll the POW vs POW once and only once... Unless you are really nasty and unless the individual has mislabelled his crystals you make him go through the whole week again because he is not sure if its attuned or not.... Just kidding, i feel that once you cast an MP into it you will know which one it is when it stops accepting more POW.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[HreshtIronBorne]

5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

They way I read the rules, it seems that every time you replenish the crystal you have to sacrifice at least one point of POW (to get 1D10 magic points in the item). Since you can get that POW back only infrequently (on a seasonal cycle), it seems to me that you can't really refill those crystals so easily, otherwise you end up with a low POW. I mean, there's probably a reason why I can't find any NPC that has more than 1 or 2 crystals.

The rules for MP matrix specifically state that POW is Sacrificed to Create the 1d10 in potential MP storage. They are refilled from your personal MP or Temporary power for RQ2ers out there. Sacrificing POW is in no way required for crystals unless you Fail in attempting to attune a Crystal.

 

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Ah so after looting the bad guy, you need to spend 1 week trying to attuning the crystal you found to figure out what it is? And then you have a lame 1 point POW storage crystal as a result? And so you need to spend another point of POW to get 1d10 more in it?

You have to spend a week figuring out if it is Powered or Not. All crystals have some sort of innate POW. You are NOT enchanting them in the act of attuning them. 

 

9 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

What rule do you use instead?

In our Glorantha people use their whole skills for all rolls. I have had characters get up to several hundred % before in older games. In RQ:G we have maxed out around right under 200% with full buffs for most party members, sans Sword Trance. I have used Sword Trance as written to literally delete a whole Lunar Garrison at 600% skill, swinging 6 times a round or auto-specialing every swing. 

[Austin]

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I also don't play with the over-100 reduce at my table

What rule do you use instead?

I don't? I removed that rule, and just use usual resolution. If I have to break ties with a single die roll, I use Mythras's resolution rule (if success level is tied, whichever die roll is higher).

8 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

But that spirit will give you only a few MPs, right?

Average ghost has POW 3D6+6, so 16-17 POW. Spirit Combat POW×5, so 80/85%. CHA 3D6, so 10-11. Spirit Combat damage (if I remember the table correctly) should be 26 to 28 on average, so 1D6+1? Ghosts love to initiate attacks, and if you've got a POW Storage crystal you can bind one into it for freebies if you defeat the ghost in spirit combat. Or, release it once without a control spell (since, depending on the type of spirit, there's no guarantee of having the correct spell) to do a thing. 85% and 1D6+1 is pretty beatable by most beginning apprentice shaman adventurers I've seen. Not easy, not guaranteed, but beatable.

Plus once you goad the spirit into combat with Distraction, your buddy with Bladesharp or Fireblade can sneak up and take a few good chunks out of it. Fireblade or Truesword make super quick work of spirits.

[HreshtIronBorne]

I don't think spirit magic works on spirits in RQ:G Enchanted Rune Metals, and Rune Magic work I think.

 

Attacking with Weapons  and Spells

Corporeal entities may attack a spirit that is engaged in spirit combat with enchanted weapons and spells. The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill. However, the magic point damage from physical weapons is based on its magical nature:

. Temporary damage boosts from Rune magic (such as True Weapon) do harm spirits but only to the amount of extra damage caused by the spell. For example, True Sword would do 1D8+1 if cast on a broadsword.

. Enchanted weapons (such as enchanted iron or other Rune metals) do normal damage, but gain no damage bonus from STR+SIZ.

. Offensive damage-causing spells (such as Disruption or Lightning) can harm spirits.

. Temporary damage boosts from spirit magic (such as Bladesharp, Fireblade, etc.) do not harm most spirits, nor do unenchanted Rune metal weapons (such as unenchanted iron).

Damage from enchanted weapons or spells reduces the spirit’s magic points.

[Lordabdul]

41 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

In our Glorantha people use their whole skills for all rolls.

 

39 minutes ago, Crel said:

I don't? I removed that rule, and just use usual resolution. If I have to break ties with a single die roll, I use Mythras's resolution rule (if success level is tied, whichever die roll is higher).

So I like the idea of removing the rule, since it means you can keep your pre-calculated Special/Critical success thresholds... but, errr, doesn't that make high powered combat completely ridiculous? Everybody always does special/critical success, even when 2 evenly matched opponents fight?

[Pentallion]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What house rule did you use as a replacement?

My initial (potentially naive?) reaction is that you are the one breaking the Glorantha ecosystem by allowing characters to walk around with 60+ magic points at their disposal with, seemingly, easy ways to refill them before the next combat/adventure. I might be missing something about RAW, but I would have never dreamed of having such power unless I'm playing some legendary figure. Is there any precedent for this? Even looking at Rune Lords in the old Runemasters book, they only typically have storage crystals for 10 to 20 POW. Am I missing something?

Didn't replace it with anything.  We just don't reduce skills above 100%.  Crits and specials are figured on the skill percentages. 

Precedent?  Have you actually played any kind of adventure for any length of time?  Pick up any 8 or so adventures for publication, go through them, add up all the power crystals available.

It's an inevitable consequence of playing RQ that your characters rack up tons of power crystals.

One thing I like about Gonn Orta's is that their economy is based on power crystals.  It's a great way to dump off excess crystals by buying magic items in exchange.

[Lordabdul]

1 minute ago, Pentallion said:

Have you actually played any kind of adventure for any length of time?

No I actually played only a few one shots so far. That's why I'm asking