Egregious munchkinnery!

[Imryn]

6 minutes ago, Crel said:

I feel like the cult from which the enchantment spell was cast is still the cult which the matrix is affiliated with, even for common spells. It wasn't made with amorphous magical energies--it was made with the magic of Orlanth, or Ernalda, or whomever. I think this is highlighted by the sidebar about Heal Wound on p.330, which discusses how the common Rune spells still behave distinctly for each cult.

This is a solid thought. I expect that a character will only ever achieve Rune priest / Lord status with one cult, no matter how many RP pools they have, so that cult will be the source of their enchantment rune spells and that cult would be where their enchanted items get recharged.

[PhilHibbs]

14 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Of course you would have to pass both rolls, and if you failed one then only one spell would cast so you could waste your Extension matrix if the shield failed to cast.

I wouldn't have someone lose the Extension RP for a failed spellcast, or end up with a 15 minute spell for a failed Extension cast. Unless the player is an egregious munchkin, of course, then the gloves come off. Damn munchkins, hate 'em!

10 minutes ago, Imryn said:

I expect that a character will only ever achieve Rune priest / Lord status with one cult, no matter how many RP pools they have, so that cult will be the source of their enchantment rune spells and that cult would be where their enchanted items get recharged.

Does this also scotch the idea of everyone contributing POW to an Extension enchantment? They all have to be priests, for a start, unless the first thing you do is put Spell Matrix Enchantment into an enchantment so everyone can use it...

Edited June 12, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Imryn]

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I wouldn't have someone lose the Extension RP for a failed spellcast, or end up with a 15 minute spell for a failed Extension cast. Unless the player is an egregious munchkin, of course, then the gloves come off. Damn munchkins, hate 'em!

The RAW do support it IMO, I think "the proper temple" is clear.

I absolutely would have someone waste the extension if they failed a cast. It's actually more likely to go the other way because the chance of successfully casting against a favoured cult rune will probably be higher than POW x 5, but I would definitely have the spells fire or fail based on the rolls. Them's the breaks when you cast from a matrix and RP; if you cast both from RP I would allow one roll against your cult rune to see if both spells fired.

See my response above - @Crel changed my mind about recharging 

I just noticed you mentioned "Extension RP" - do you think casting a rune spell from a matrix costs RP? My understanding is that there is no RP cost but the matrix is discharged until you worship at the correct temple to recharge it.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Imryn

[Austin]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Unless the player is an egregious munchkin, of course, then the gloves come off. Damn munchkins, hate 'em!

If I recall correctly, you're the one who opened up this thread of worms...

I generally agree with Phil on this one--the wording could be stronger and more precise in the text, but I still don't generally think you can combine an Extension matrix from one cult with a spell from another. My jury's still out on if you could combine an Extension matrix with its own cult spells. I see nothing against it, but something just feels screwy about it to me. I figure the matrix can't refill until the extension's done, and the spell you cast can't refill until then too, both due to the Rune Fix where Extension'd Rune points can't be replenished until the spell ends.

I think this is why the spell trade is relevant. If you trade with your Wind Lord buddy for Shield 2, Extension 3, he can replenish those Rune points at normal pace, and you can replenish whatever you traded away. And, IIRC you can trade a traded spell, so you could pass around a few copies of that, given a lot of time to prepare (like over a couple seasons) and then have the party cast it before going and raiding Snake Pipe Hollow. While the stacked Spell + Extension might be a little wobbly (though I feel pretty confident it qualifies as "one use" of a spell since it's one "action" basically), I think it's solid RAW that the points come back normally, which is the main loophole.

[Imryn]

4 minutes ago, Crel said:

If I recall correctly, you're the one who opened up this thread of worms...

I generally agree with Phil on this one--the wording could be stronger and more precise in the text, but I still don't generally think you can combine an Extension matrix from one cult with a spell from another. My jury's still out on if you could combine an Extension matrix with its own cult spells. I see nothing against it, but something just feels screwy about it to me. I figure the matrix can't refill until the extension's done, and the spell you cast can't refill until then too, both due to the Rune Fix where Extension'd Rune points can't be replenished until the spell ends.

I think this is why the spell trade is relevant. If you trade with your Wind Lord buddy for Shield 2, Extension 3, he can replenish those Rune points at normal pace, and you can replenish whatever you traded away. And, IIRC you can trade a traded spell, so you could pass around a few copies of that, given a lot of time to prepare (like over a couple seasons) and then have the party cast it before going and raiding Snake Pipe Hollow. While the stacked Spell + Extension might be a little wobbly (though I feel pretty confident it qualifies as "one use" of a spell since it's one "action" basically), I think it's solid RAW that the points come back normally, which is the main loophole.

I feel that same way you do, but the RAW has nothing that prohibits casting an extension from a matrix and a spell from RP. The source of the magic that created the matrix is only relevant for recharging it, and recharging it is not limited by anything but availability of a proper temple.

If they had described a rune spell matrix as a single purpose RP pool that could only be used to cast the specific spell it was created with, then the situation would be much clearer. By describing the enchanted matrix as a combination of a spell matrix, an RP matrix and a condition that caused the spell to use the RP pool, then the rules would be clear as day.

I imagine they didn't do it that way because they wanted to avoid even hinting that you could pool RP in enchanted objects like you can with MP.

I think that trading a spell should count as a use of the spell, so if you trade a spell you previously gained through trading you would lose it.

[Austin]

2 minutes ago, Imryn said:

I think that trading a spell should count as a use of the spell, so if you trade a spell you previously gained through trading you would lose it.

Agreed. I was thinking more "I've gathered up a bunch of Shield 2, Extension 3's, and slowly kept casting Spell Trading to hand them to my fellow adventurers. Now that we're doing a really scary mission it's time for us to turn on the magic." Plus, because of the Spell Trading's requirements, you're probably continuing to stockpile extra uses of all sorts of nifty little spells. I imagine just having a stockpile of Multispell and Divination from various deities is probably quite good. (Gee, I'll use my Chalana divination to figure out what plant will heal my buddy, my Issaries divination to figure out if Uncle Harmast got to Boldhome safely, etc...) Or getting a spare Soul Sight, too. Even with the possible restrictions on trading special Rune magic the common magic you can stockpile--and save your RP for special spells--is quite good.

10 minutes ago, Imryn said:

I feel that same way you do, but the RAW has nothing that prohibits casting an extension from a matrix and a spell from RP. The source of the magic that created the matrix is only relevant for recharging it, and recharging it is not limited by anything but availability of a proper temple.

I'm looking around for the bit of text which says you can't cast a spell using RP from two different cults at once (ex can't do Spell + Extension using your own RP pools for Orlanth and Issaries) and all I can find is a snippet about separate pools on p.275, "Membership in Multiple Cults" which isn't really enlightening. Maybe it was in Rune Fixes, or was just stated by a dev at some stage on the forums?

The argument being, because you can't do Orlanth Shield + Issaries Extension, and because a common Rune matrix requires replenishing from a specific cult, therefore the common Rune matrix is effectively that cult's magic, and can't get stacked with another cult's magic. This would still allow Orlanth Shield + Orlanth Extension Matrix. But without that text, RAW you're right.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, Imryn said:

This is a solid thought. I expect that a character will only ever achieve Rune priest / Lord status with one cult, no matter how many RP pools they have, so that cult will be the source of their enchantment rune spells and that cult would be where their enchanted items get recharged.

Since this is the munchkinnery threat, take a look at Londra of Londros, Sword of Humakt and associate priest (God Talker) to Orlanth. Former high priest(ess) of the Wooden Sword.

 

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Does this also scotch the idea of everyone contributing POW to an Extension enchantment? They all have to be priests, for a start, unless the first thing you do is put Spell Matrix Enchantment into an enchantment so everyone can use it...

No, the other donors don't even have to be lay members to be able to donate POW. It is similar to using older editions' Mindlink to power such spells.

But why use an enchantment if you have a way to get your hands on Truestone?

 

2 minutes ago, Imryn said:

I think that trading a spell should count as a use of the spell, so if you trade a spell you previously gained through trading you would lose it

If a traded spell is a delayed spell that you can regenerate the RP for once you handed it over, what is to stop two munchkins from the same cult trade their identical spells to have additional castings on call, over and over again?

Spell trading is bad enough as it trades casting for casting, allowing you to pay a one Rune Point spell for a massive 8 point spell. Several times. Your Humakti could enter a duel with a handful castings of Sever Spirit traded for Sword Trance, and his full rune point pool (provided the recipients cast that spell at the next occasion if you use my interpretation that the rune points become available again once the spell has been used by the trading partner).

[Imryn]

13 minutes ago, Crel said:

I'm looking around for the bit of text which says you can't cast a spell using RP from two different cults at once (ex can't do Spell + Extension using your own RP pools for Orlanth and Issaries) and all I can find is a snippet about separate pools on p.275, "Membership in Multiple Cults" which isn't really enlightening. Maybe it was in Rune Fixes, or was just stated by a dev at some stage on the forums?

The argument being, because you can't do Orlanth Shield + Issaries Extension, and because a common Rune matrix requires replenishing from a specific cult, therefore the common Rune matrix is effectively that cult's magic, and can't get stacked with another cult's magic. This would still allow Orlanth Shield + Orlanth Extension Matrix. But without that text, RAW you're right.

Using two different pools does not apply, because the way it is written in the RAW the matrix is created by a POW sacrifice. There is no RP used in the creation, use, or recharging of a matrix.

[Austin]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If a traded spell is a delayed spell that you can regenerate the RP for once you handed it over, what is to stop two munchkins from the same cult trade their identical spells to have additional castings on call, over and over again?

Honestly, you're 100% right. And I'm quite confident that's the RAW. Text is p.340:

Quote

The Rune points used to trade a Rune spell can be replenished in the regular fashion. To cast the received spell, no Rune points need to be used and the caster uses the relevant Rune rating of the person who provided the spell.

AFAIK there's nothing to prevent munchkinism in the mechanics.

[Austin]

13 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Using two different pools does not apply, because the way it is written in the RAW the matrix is created by a POW sacrifice. There is no RP used in the creation, use, or recharging of a matrix.

I think it applies by analogy. Even if there aren't any "pseudo-RP" or whatever in the matrix, the matrix still holds the magic of a particular god. The analogy I was trying to provide is that using another cult's matrix with your cult's spell is like casting from two different Rune point pools; it's still mixing cult magics. The magic is a particular god's because the enchantment spell was gifted from that god--the Rune Master who learned it had to sac POW to that god to learn the enchantment.

Again, I admit that without actual text saying "Thou Shalt Not Call Upon Two Gods at Once" it is a bit of a moot point.

[PhilHibbs]

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

No, the other donors don't even have to be lay members to be able to donate POW. It is similar to using older editions' Mindlink to power such spells.

Sort of... the other contributors are only giving POW to the enchant, the Extension has to come from the priest. So (assuming you can make a pure-Extension matrix) if the casting priest has 5 RP, he can make an Extension 5 matrix using the POW from himself and 4 other contributors. But he can't make an Extension 6 matrix, regardless of how many people he can get to contribute POW, I don't think there is any mindlink-type effect going on.

[Imryn]

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

I think it applies by analogy. Even if there aren't any "pseudo-RP" or whatever in the matrix, the matrix still holds the magic of a particular god. The analogy I was trying to provide is that using another cult's matrix with your cult's spell is like casting from two different Rune point pools; it's still mixing cult magics. The magic is a particular god's because the enchantment spell was gifted from that god--the Rune Master who learned it had to sac POW to that god to learn the enchantment.

Again, I admit that without actual text saying "Thou Shalt Not Call Upon Two Gods at Once" it is a bit of a moot point.

Again, I agree with you in theory but for the purposes of this thread (i.e. munchkinnery) there is nothing in the RAW to prevent it.

Every group of munchkin players should create an Extension 5 spell matrix as soon as possible and share it around to get all those year long buffs.

If i were posting in another thread I would note that as a GM I would describe a rune spell matrix differently to the RAW. It would be a spell matrix with an associated RP pool used to cast the spell. The matrix and the RP pool would be created when the enchanter created the matrix and the RP pool could only be recharged by worshipping the god that granted the enchantment spell to the enchanter. any attempt to tap the RP pool for any other purpose would result in the matrix being destroyed and a visit from the gods spirit of "explaining stuff to idiots".

[Imryn]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sort of... the other contributors are only giving POW to the enchant, the Extension has to come from the priest. So (assuming you can make a pure-Extension matrix) if the casting priest has 5 RP, he can make an Extension 5 matrix using the POW from himself and 4 other contributors. But he can't make an Extension 6 matrix, regardless of how many people he can get to contribute POW, I don't think there is any mindlink-type effect going on.

No, i don't think it matters how many RP points the caster has - it is created by sacing POW. As long as he has 1 RP he has access to all common rune spells and if he used that 1RP to get access to the enchantment spell he can create a spell matrix for Extension 5.

Just to be absolutely clear that same player could also make a matrix with shield 10 and a link condition to have the extension and the shield fire off together. RP has absolutely nothing to do with enchanting, it is all done by sacing POW

Edited June 12, 2019 by Imryn

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, Imryn said:

No, i don't think it matters how many RP points the caster has - it is created by sacing POW. As long as he has 1 RP he has access to all common rune spells and if he used that 1RP to get access to the enchantment spell he can create a spell matrix for Extension 5.

So an Orlanth priest with 99 worshippers contributing can make a Lightning 100 matrix? Nice! I think you win the Munchiest Munchkin Award for discovering that one!

[Imryn]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

So an Orlanth priest with 99 worshippers contributing can make a Lightning 100 matrix? Nice! I think you win the Munchiest Munchkin Award for discovering that one!

Well, yes, but its not the same as worshipping. The 99 others would have to take part in the enchanting ritual and each have to sac a point of POW. Most GM's wouldn't let a player exploit 99 npc's in that way.

[Shiningbrow]

25 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Well, yes, but its not the same as worshipping. The 99 others would have to take part in the enchanting ritual and each have to sac a point of POW. Most GM's wouldn't let a player exploit 99 npc's in that way.

Lie! 

(The Eurmali Rune Spell... Not what you wrote...)

Just Lie to a crowd of worshippers that that's what your deity wants you all to do...

[Shiningbrow]

Just to be a party-pooper on this Spell Trading topic, apart from associated cults (and even then), should individuals even be aware of the cult secret special spells??? I'd be inclined to say "no", unless it's something they've become famous for (e.g., Humakt's Sever Spirit). 

[Kloster]

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just to be a party-pooper on this Spell Trading topic, apart from associated cults (and even then), should individuals even be aware of the cult secret special spells??? I'd be inclined to say "no", unless it's something they've become famous for (e.g., Humakt's Sever Spirit). 

I agree with you, but how do you segregate those truly secret (that is existence unknown) of those secret but known (existence is known to most, but the workings are secret)? By the way, this concern not only spells, but also all cult secrets (skills, knowledges, techniques,...).

[Joerg]

56 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I agree with you, but how do you segregate those truly secret (that is existence unknown) of those secret but known (existence is known to most, but the workings are secret)? By the way, this concern not only spells, but also all cult secrets (skills, knowledges, techniques,...).

In Glorantha, "Secret" doesn't mean hush hush about the ability, but no clue about the how to gain and use the ability. Like e.g. the God Learner "In Plain Sight" secret "they could alter the myths". Arkat could switch myths mid-path, and the God Learners could establish such a switched path as the new standard. (Not that that was much different from what Harmast did.)

So, yes, the cult of Humakt can re-use Sever Spirit, which makes it an expensive but sure-fire way to cause 3D6 general hit point damage on a failed resistance roll with the chance to end that fight immediately. Other cults which have to buy this as a one-use ability might hesitate to use this.

[PhilHibbs]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So, yes, the cult of Humakt can re-use Sever Spirit, which makes it an expensive but sure-fire way to cause 3D6 general hit point damage...

1D6.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Imryn said:

Well, yes, but its not the same as worshipping. The 99 others would have to take part in the enchanting ritual and each have to sac a point of POW. Most GM's wouldn't let a player exploit 99 npc's in that way.

And I thought within Egregious Munchkinerry anything goes...

5 hours ago, Imryn said:

Again, I agree with you in theory but for the purposes of this thread (i.e. munchkinnery) there is nothing in the RAW to prevent it.

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, yes, the cult of Humakt can re-use Sever Spirit, which makes it an expensive but sure-fire way to cause 3D6 general hit point damage on a failed resistance roll with the chance to end that fight immediately. Other cults which have to buy this as a one-use ability might hesitate to use this.

Just 1d6 in RQ:G, nowhere near as strong. I haven't ever cast it in 7 years game time yet, too unreliable til I can MAX POW.

[PhilHibbs]

10 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Just 1d6 in RQ:G, nowhere near as strong. I haven't ever cast it in 7 years game time yet, too unreliable til I can MAX POW.

It was 1D6 in RQ3 as well. I've had a character use it once myself, and seen it used once to kill a giant, both in RQ3 where it was one-use to initiates.

[Imryn]

15 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

And I thought within Egregious Munchkinerry anything goes...

 

<Hangs head in shame> You are right, I don't know what came over me.

[soltakss]

On 6/12/2019 at 8:18 AM, Crel said:

So, Spell Trading.

We used to play that you could offer the other participant the cost of the traded spell if they cast your spell immediately, thus freeing up your spell and keeping the traded spell.

On 6/12/2019 at 9:11 AM, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not convinced that Extension from one source can be mixed with a rune spell from another.

We always played that a spell is a spell is a spell, regardless of the source. So, Orlanthi Extension worked on Humakti Truesword and Shield 1 from Orlanth and Shield 2 on Humakt stacked to Shield 3.