Egregious munchkinnery!

[HreshtIronBorne]

Well, if you disallow boosting to empower defensive spells then you only have to worry about the sizes of spells you allow players to come by in Your Glorantha, in terms of spirit magic anyway. In theory a Rune-Lord, Priest, or Initiate could drop up to their whole CHA in RP on a single spell, which for humans would be about 21 without magically breaking species maximums. Even Countermagic 42 through shield is bustable with sufficient casting time.  With 4 rounds and a decent pile of either Multispell or Simultaneous Casting a shaman could throw out a Grossly huge stacked Disruption powered by 50 or so MP. It would blow through almost any defenses. Also shaman get their fetch to add to spell struggles which makes even a relatively weak/new shaman easily capable of winning most POW struggles on a 95% chance, even against Rune-Lords defending with 21 POW always. 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, gochie said:

Nope. You wait it out if you must.

On the flip-side, is there  any way to get through a 63 MP-boosted Shield/countermagic, as above?

Yes. You ignore the boosting MP, as they only are in effect when casting the spell - across some other counter-magic effect. Like I maintain is necessary to cast a Countermagic on top of a Shield (the other way is impossible because for the Shield to be activated the Countermagic has to be overcome first, and then dissipates).

A boost just counteracts a Countermagic effect. Its magic doesn't stay around. For a 63 point Countermagic, you need say 28 points of Shield with 7 points of Countermagic on top (which require a 50 MP boost to be planted on top of the Shield's 56 points of Countermagic).

Now a Charisma spell with Extension theoretically allows a character to have 28 or more rune points while the spell lasts. That's still a lot of "one use POW" once the spell dissipates and the rune points fall back to the character's CHA score (of 21 - we are talking about a Munchkin priest, after all...)

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

... fall back to the character's CHA score (of 21 - we are talking about a Munchkin priest, after all...)

  Po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to ...

 

You say "Munchkin," I say "Illuminated."

[PhilHibbs]

 

8 hours ago, gochie said:

On the flip-side, is there  any way to get through a 63 MP-boosted Shield/countermagic, as above?

No-one is suggesting that the effect of Shield or Countermagic can boosted. The suggestion is that you could boost a spell with extra MP to prevent the spell from being dismissed. That would not increase the Countermagic's ability to protect the target. I think it's a bad idea anyway whether or not you 

8 hours ago, gochie said:

As a side-note, I don't think I'll apply the magic-points boosting mechanism at my table at all.

Which rule do you mean - the houserule of boosting a spell to protect it, or the existing rule that has always been part of RQ that you can boost a spell to overcome defensive magic?

[gochie]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes. You ignore the boosting MP, as they only are in effect when casting the spell - across some other counter-magic effect. Like I maintain is necessary to cast a Countermagic on top of a Shield (the other way is impossible because for the Shield to be activated the Countermagic has to be overcome first, and then dissipates).

A boost just counteracts a Countermagic effect. Its magic doesn't stay around. For a 63 point Countermagic, you need say 28 points of Shield with 7 points of Countermagic on top (which require a 50 MP boost to be planted on top of the Shield's 56 points of Countermagic).

Now a Charisma spell with Extension theoretically allows a character to have 28 or more rune points while the spell lasts. That's still a lot of "one use POW" once the spell dissipates and the rune points fall back to the character's CHA score (of 21 - we are talking about a Munchkin priest, after all...)

You're right, i misunderstood the rule (we rarely ever played with any countersell or shield, so it's kind of new to me). I guess it's not so bad after all 😊

Clearly I understood (for whatever reason) that you could boost any spell to resist dispelling magic... Which sounded crazy to me. 

[Austin]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

Clearly I understood (for whatever reason) that you could boost any spell to resist dispelling magic... Which sounded crazy to me.

I think your confusion's coming about because some folks are tossing that around as a house rule (or in fact have been playing with it).

Though, I've gotta admit, the weeb in me does see a certain joy in that; two magicians each dumping hundreds of magic points into trying to overcome one another's ridiculous spells. It does feel a smidgen Dragon Ball and I'm kind of okay with that...

[Akhôrahil]

12 hours ago, gochie said:

On the flip-side, is there  any way to get through a 63 MP-boosted Shield/countermagic, as above?

I believe the boost to Shield only affect it when trying to dispel it. It only provides countermagic from its size in rune points, so blasting through it will be much easier to dispel it in this situation. Same thing with Countermagic - only the size of the Countermagic spell matters to protect the wearer.

[soltakss]

Soltak Stormspear had a 9 point Enhancer, so he could cast Countermagic 18, he also had Shield 4 and a set of dragonewt Skin Armour that he obtained by killing the Dragonewt in spirit combat (RQ2, so its soul was destroyed), so he could get, in theory, about Countermagic 30. Sounds great, doesn't it? However, all it takes is a Priest with Multispell 3 casting 4 spells boosted to 16 MPs each to blow it down.

A big Countermagic is not the answer to everything.

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/16/2019 at 5:54 AM, Joerg said:

 

Now a Charisma spell with Extension theoretically allows a character to have 28 or more rune points while the spell lasts. That's still a lot of "one use POW" once the spell dissipates and the rune points fall back to the character's CHA score (of 21 - we are talking about a Munchkin priest, after all...)

Since this is the Munchkin thread: you can cut the cost down a bit by using 5p of Extension cast from a second cult’s Rune Points (as the Rune Point limit only applies per cult). Or even from a matrix.

Shield 21 with full Extension and maybe 100 points of Boost is well within what’s doable for a higher-level character. This isn’t even Hero-level stuff, just advanced Rune level.

Would anyone like to check on the amount of Sorcery you need to take it down? I’m assuming it’s just a question of time and numbers (because everything in Sorcery is just a question of time and numbers).

Edited December 21, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Soltak Stormspear had a 9 point Enhancer, so he could cast Countermagic 18, he also had Shield 4 and a set of dragonewt Skin Armour that he obtained by killing the Dragonewt in spirit combat (RQ2, so its soul was destroyed), so he could get, in theory, about Countermagic 30. Sounds great, doesn't it? However, all it takes is a Priest with Multispell 3 casting 4 spells boosted to 16 MPs each to blow it down.

I don't think that mere 16 MP are enough to go past a CM 18, even when multispelled, as each spell is below the threshold of breaking the CM.6

Shield is the more reliable source of CM and slows down enemy spellcasting as each spell needs to be boosted or otherwise intensified to get past the Shield, but then, professional magicians will go for dismissing the shield first.

Even so, a (supporting) character (like a familiar) with shield 6 matrices will be able to re-buff the CM within a single casting in a single combat round. Relying on Dispel means you need a number of Dispellers on the offensive side so you can keep up the Dispel barrage able t surpass the CM effect at least once per melee round. (And of course you need a small regiment's daily output of MP for an exchange like this...)

So for a rune magicians battle, you will want Dismiss Magic 6 or better matrices to strip the opposition. Ideally used by a supporting character so that your own magic action can remain an offensive one.

You will want to have a strong Warding for your supporters - so possibly a warded chariot, with the ornate yoke including the draught animals in the protected area. Warding is limited to intensity 4 (providing a CM of 8 ) but extra points can extend the area. Unlike Shield, Warding cannot be dispelled, either, but requires the warding stakes to be removed or destroyed physically (not necessarily manually, though).

So let's assume two rune magicians coming at one another on warded chariots (or carts, or palanquins, or boats, or howdas, or some other mobile contraption), laden with a number of small sized familiars equipped with rune magic matrices. Any spell that you cast on such a combatant needs a minimum total load of 9 MP, in other words takes up an entire melee round for the active magician.

For additional individual protection, you need to use Shield which you might want to top off with Countermagic or Protection, depending on how much you fear physical force intervention between the magic exchange. Having a silk pavilion with active Protection as a barrier against incoming missile fire or physical damage magic will provide shelter. Linen will work, too, but is heavier. You probably will want two or three of these as that Protection might be a target for enemy Dispels, so you will want to have two supporters exchanging and refreshing these as they are used up. Sprites as familiars might be useful for this, or small Runners. (If your Yelmalian goes the full Aldryami support crew, you might want to use living plants rather than cloth...)

Live crystals can make a big difference, so be sure to equip your familiars and other supporters with these.

 

There doesn't seem to be a limit for how many rune magic matrices can be refueled in a single worship service - so there is the rules exploit for your prospective max RuneQuest level munchkin.

Warding and similar common rune magic matrices might best be obtained from the Daka Fal cult, as you only need supporters with conveniently spaced seasonal holidays to recharge them through worship as needed.

 

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

A big Countermagic is not the answer to everything.

Given huge reserves of magic points, it is at best a "not yet". Casting it takes time. Casting it on top of an existing Shield 4 or bigger takes a supporter an entire melee round or more.

 

Rune magicians batttling it out like this are starting to feel like Mech Warriors or Battleships. But why not have a magician on a howdaed Rhino face one on a palanquin carried by sacred oxen, with all of the gimmicks mentioned above?

Such rune magicians probably approach Khan counters in Nomad Gods/Dragon Pass. With all the supporters, they are units rather than individuals.

 

Operating such a chariot or howda doesn't limit the main rune magicians to one person. A Rune Lord and a Rune Priest sharing such a platform will probably outperform a Rune Lord-Priest on his own. The logistics and support structures behind them probably require an entire staff of bureaucrats.

And they still can be taken out by a sufficiently high number of (magical) glass cannons risking elimination. If these glass cannons know the backdoor from Hell, they would even be re-usable... This might be how Sheng operated.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Shield 21 with full Extension and maybe 100 points of Boost is well within what’s doable for a higher-level character. This isn’t even Hero-level stuff, just advanced Rune level.

Would anyone like to check on the amount of Sorcery you need to take it down? I’m assuming it’s just a question of time and numbers (because everything in Sorcery is just a question of time and numbers).

I would say a 'Neutralize Magic' 21 can, a 'Neutralize Magic' 42 has a 50% chance and a 'Neutralize Magic' 84 automatically removes the shield 21.

[gochie]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Shield 21 with full Extension and maybe 100 points of Boost

What boost? We just determined there is no boost unless for beating countermagic lol. 

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Would anyone like to check on the amount of Sorcery you need to take it down?

You would need 42 points of Neutralize Magic to have 50% chance of dispelling it, 52 points gives you 100% (95). 33 points would give you 05%.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

What boost? We just determined there is no boost unless for beating countermagic lol. 

You would need 42 points of Neutralize Magic to have 50% chance of dispelling it, 52 points gives you 100% (95). 33 points would give you 05%.

Also for resisting dispelling. What it doesn't do is add to the amount of countermagic of the Shield spell. So you need 142 points on Intensity for even odds to dispel it, but only intensity 42 to have 50% chance to pass through it.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also for resisting dispelling.

What rules text do you base this on?

You don't dispel enemy magic the moment it is cast - the spell must be in effect to be canceled. That other thing is awesome SFX in sorcerers' duels, but we don't have rules for that (other than a quick Disrupt to break concentration).

Once the spell is in effect, all the extra boosting MP are gone for good. They don't linger.

(If they would linger, then for how long? A spirit spell lasts 2 minutes, a sorcery spell 5, a rune spell 15.)

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

What it doesn't do is add to the amount of countermagic of the Shield spell. So you need 142 points on Intensity for even odds to dispel it, but only intensity 42 to have 50% chance to pass through it.

A 21 point shield practically cannot be taken off with Spirit Magic Dispel as there is nobody with INT 43 or higher who has just that one spirit magic spell.

A 21 point Dismiss Magic with one extra magic point to undo the Countermagic effect of the Shield can take that spell away.

A sorcerous 42 point Neutralize Magic (with about 22 points of inscription, possible for humans only if you can layer on inscriptions successively) would have a 50% chance to cancel the Shield for its duration. (Extra duration would have to be inscribed, too.)

 

[Pentallion]

On 12/13/2019 at 9:40 PM, lordabdul said:

Wait, you have a 63 MP storage available for real?

I'm not sure your GM is playing very fair (and yes I know this is the egregious munchkinery thread, but it's about the players not playing fair! not the GM!).

To cast Dismiss/Dispel Magic, one would need to specify a spell to dismiss/dispel... otherwise, you just aim at the target, and it will affect defensive spells first. Sure, True Sword will make the Humakti's weapon glow and drip blood or something (since Rune magic is always visible), but it might not be always obvious what spell exactly is making that.

 

 

Because the death rune tatoos and an obviously magicked sword don't blatantly give it away....

[Pentallion]

On 12/13/2019 at 9:49 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

63 current available additional MP, yeah. Across several crystals, most with spirits. 

Serial Dispels really only started to come out when the Humakti was facing Troll Rune-Lords or other similar level threats. Soul Sight allows the caster to see all spells up, as far as we can tell and is cheap and easy to throw up at the start of any big engagement. The Troll just dispelled everything the Humakti tried to cast on himself so, we eventually just fought with our Lead and Iron. 

I think the thing that really instigated my GM nuking the Humakti's spells was using Sword Trance to trivialize several engagements and basically steal the show. I think he was mostly trying to show that he definitely knows the rules and there are weaknesses to every strategy. 

I'm his GM and I was annoyed at the obviously broken Sword Trance (which I have since house ruled only doubles the natural skill of the caster) because it makes literally EVERYTHING that doesn't carry dispell magic to be pointless.  Especially with the "reduce skills over 100%" stupidity rule.  I house ruled that BS the hell outta my game as well.  Imagine: 

CWIM:  With Sword Trance as written it is absurd that Cwim drove off Argrath.  3 or 4 Humakt easy could have taken it out.  Cwim should have died centuries ago.  He can't hit the Humakt with any attacks except spit and any Dodge skill at all will buy time.  yes Cwim can dispel, but Argrath teleports the Humakt in round one and Cwim won't be dispelling that round.  With truesworded GS's, bladesharps, strength spells, all standard Humakt artillery, and even a simple Lhankor Mhy philosopher to cast Boon of Kargan Tor for an extra 2d6, Cwim goes down hard, fast and absurdly easily.

No, that spell and that rule are both stupid, ill conceived and broken.  Arguments you can dispel them don't hold water.  Giants can't dispel them.  So many things can't dispel them.  The eco system of the world of Glorantha simply cannot exist in the same universe as Sword Trance and skills over 100% as written.  However, make Sword Trance like the old Arrow Trance and toss out the skills over 100% rule and the game is fun, balanced and the terrors remain terrors, the giants remain gigantic, etc.

None of this is even munchkinnery, it's just Jeff and others refusing to admit they made a small mistake in an otherwise fantastic game and not fixing it.  So I fix it myself.

Meanwhile, if I DO have a dispel magic available and I see a Humakti, I don't really care what spell he's cast on his sword, it obviously has to go down.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Pentallion

[Pentallion]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:42 AM, soltakss said:

In our RQ2 Campaign, Soltak Stormspear bought a magical item from a fellow PC for 200 points-worth of POW Storage Crystals. In the same Campaign, Derak the Dark Troll had a leather jacket with "Derak" written in POW Storage Crystals.

It really depends on the type of campaign you have.

Actually, it only depends on if you give out the power crystals the official adventures hand out like candy.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Especially with the "reduce skills over 100%" stupidity rule.  I house ruled that BS the hell outta my game as well.

What house rule did you use as a replacement?

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

The eco system of the world of Glorantha simply cannot exist in the same universe as Sword Trance and skills over 100% as written.

My initial (potentially naive?) reaction is that you are the one breaking the Glorantha ecosystem by allowing characters to walk around with 60+ magic points at their disposal with, seemingly, easy ways to refill them before the next combat/adventure. I might be missing something about RAW, but I would have never dreamed of having such power unless I'm playing some legendary figure. Is there any precedent for this? Even looking at Rune Lords in the old Runemasters book, they only typically have storage crystals for 10 to 20 POW. Am I missing something?

Edited December 21, 2019 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

I actually went back to check on some more NPCs... some can gather up ~40 magic points if they spend their crystals and suck their bound spirits dry... a couple can get into the 60 range, so I guess it's not so far out than I thought... I also realize that I might be mistaken about POW storage crystals -- I originally thought that you had to sacrifice POW into them (making their replenishing very slow), but it might actually be super quick (a few hours of pouring magic points in them and getting them back). I can't find the rules for recharging crystals?

[Bill the barbarian]

21 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I actually went back to check on some more NPCs... some can gather up ~40 magic points if they spend their crystals and suck their bound spirits dry... a couple can get into the 60 range, so I guess it's not so far out than I thought... I also realize that I might be mistaken about POW storage crystals -- I originally thought that you had to sacrifice POW into them (making their replenishing very slow), but it might actually be super quick (a few hours of pouring magic points in them and getting them back). I can't find the rules for recharging crystals?

I had mentioned that a couple times in responses to you the you must have missed. Alas.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

What rules text do you base this on?

You don't dispel enemy magic the moment it is cast - the spell must be in effect to be canceled. That other thing is awesome SFX in sorcerers' duels, but we don't have rules for that (other than a quick Disrupt to break concentration).

p. 248: "A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a
spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome
a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."

...

"The next round Vasana decides to cast Demoralize, a 2-point
spirit magic spell, on the same troll. This time she boosts the
spell with 4 magic points, making it effectively a 6-point spell."

So my rules interpretation (which I believe is solid) goes like this: Any spell ("regardless of type") can be boosted. The phrasing "this is typically done to overcome" heavily indicates that there are other uses, and it also seems a bit pointless to allow boosting that has no possible effect. What boosting does, is increase the strength of the spell - this, after all, is why a boosted spell can punch through Countermagic. The boosting example text (there is no actual rules text, which is weird) clearly states that the spell "effectively" becomes a higher-cost (i.e. stronger) spell. Countermagic gives a good indication about how it works - spells being stronger/weaker, and boosting magic points making a spell stronger (otherwise, offensive boosting wouldn't work in the first place). Hence, any spell boosted with magic points now "effectively" counts as its effective cost. 

So a defensively boosted spell is now a stronger (higher-cost) spell. If a Demoralize boosted with 4 Magic Points is effectively a 6-point spell, then it follows that a Coordination boosted with 4 Magic Points is also a 6-point spell.

(Following this, everything gets incredibly complicated as Dispel Magic, Dismiss Magic, and Neutralize Magic are all worded in different ways, with some of them talking about magic points and other talking points of Spirit Magic, but one thing is fairly clear - my "Shield 21 boosted with 100 Magic Points" is "effectively" a 142-point spell.)

((Also, by the gods would this game benefit by defining its terms strictly and using clear and consistent rules text. It has a lot to learn from more recent editions of D&D in this regard.))

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

13 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I had mentioned that a couple times in responses to you the you met have missed. Alas.

Indeed! I forgot   Or maybe I have a head cold. Might be a better excuse...

How fast do spirit replenish their magic points? Full recovery after 24 hours just like humans?

Another thought occured to me: time to cast. If you suck everything dry and spend, say, 60 magic points on Sword Trance or something. That takes 5 full rounds (+1 SR for each MP spent) so you can start fighting only on round 6, at which point the combat might already be over. I assume the Humakti is preparing that kind of stuff in advance?

This can make a potentially important difference, for example, the house rule here:

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Sword Trance (which I have since house ruled only doubles the natural skill of the caster)

...would have (with RAW) forced the character to skip a round in order to spend, say, 8 or 10 MPs to double their skill (assuming a Humakti has above 80% in Sword).

Edited December 21, 2019 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, lordabdul said:

Indeed! I forgot   Or maybe I have a head cold. Might be a better excuse...

 

Oh shit, I hope you have not got the one I am now recovering from, two and bit weeks of hell. Good luck

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Another thought occured to me: time to cast. If you suck everything dry and spend, say, 60 magic points on Sword Trance or something. That takes 5 full rounds (+1 SR for each MP spent) so you can start fighting only on round 6, at which point the combat might already be over. I assume the Humakti is preparing that kind of stuff in advance?

 

Ahh, time as the great limiter. the spider is wise.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Lordabdul]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

((Also, by the gods would this game benefit by defining its terms strictly and using clear and consistent rules text. It has a lot to learn from more recent editions of D&D in this regard.))

So much this. This to me would TOTALLY make it worth to see a RQG v1.5 released some day.

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Oh shit, I hope you have not got the one I am now recovering from

Sadly I'm just stupid and/or senile.

Edited December 21, 2019 by lordabdul