Shrinking the Upland Marsh?

[PhilHibbs]

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, is killing Delecti somewhat harder than killing a god?

Depends on the god. The Lunars killed Orlanth and Ernalda. Everyone killed Basmol.

Edited June 24, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[scott-martin]

59 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I suspect there is at least a *little* "familiarity bias" in this thread. Delecti is a kind of fan-favorite villain isn't he? Located in one of the most-detailed parts of Glorantha? With one of the longest histories of publication? So there's a tendency to overrate the importance/ability of those kinds of characters.

The Lord of the Marsh also has survivor bias on his side in that nobody's managed to kill him in at least 500 years, literally a third of the age of the world as we know it. Gods wink out of existence all the time. This particular magician has resisted all efforts so far, but then we can say that about Batman or me as well . . . or any player character who goes on to fight tomorrow. We all outlived Genert and that's a win.

One earmark of a god is that the remains retain something like independent "life" even after the larger entity has been lethally interrupted and even dismembered. You can recombine the chunks.

Silver Feet in Fronela, for example, was "murdered" but the best the conspiracy could really do was sever the connections between his mystic portions for a few generations, alienating peoples and lands from one another in the process. Arguably he is still dead but the connections were reestablished so the gap he left behind is filled. The band plays on.

The conspiracy also had direct otherworld support in the form of Altinela and its love. Motivate a few luatha, for example, to hit the Marsh and Delecti goes away like the smear he always was. Of course unintended consequences being what they are, a few motivated luatha are probably equally likely to expand the Marsh under the equivalent of new management so you'd need to really know what you want before sending the emissaries.

[M Helsdon]

Well, Delecti is going to have a problem when the Great Flood comes...

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

We all outlived Genert and that's a win.

See, if you want to make that comparison, you also have to keep in mind that most of us weren't around when Genert died, and before that he had lived for arguably untold millennia.

Yet he did die.

(Granted, it took a Chaos world invasion)

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Well, Delecti is going to have a problem when the Great Flood comes...

His Blackthorn trees may have a problem, but Delecti himself may be fine with some lead boots. Breathing isn't part of his job description, and the flood won't be running water.

[Bill the barbarian]

39 minutes ago, Joerg said:

and the flood won't be running water.

I don't think I understand, A flood, by definition, is running water. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I don't think I understand, A flood, by definition, is running water. 

Not this one. It is just slowly rising water, pretty much like the marsh.

In-rushing water isn't associated with flood in Glorantha. The tidal cycle of Glorantha resembles a sawtooth curve rather than a sine wave, as the water slowly follows Annilla's rise in the sky and then rushes out behind the Blue Streak as it plunges into Magasta's Pool. Thus, the incoming flood is more of a swamping than a flow of water. Not even narrows like Troll Strait will experience much of a current.

The flood of 1652 (or so) is similar, it is a slow rise of water level, unstoppable, but not a rush.

[Bill the barbarian]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Not this one. It is just slowly rising water, pretty much like the marsh.

 

Cheers

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I don't think I understand, A flood, by definition, is running water. 

There's a big difference between a flood and running water. It all depends on why "running water" is harmful to undead. If it's to do with fertility or harmony, a steady, calm, predictable life-giving force, then a tsunami isn't going to have the same properties.

It's the same as the difference between a stake and a sharp piece of wood. My personal belief is that a stake kills a vampire because it has the power of the Earth infused into it from being stuck in the ground for decades. Fresh wood doesn't cut it.

Edited June 25, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

There's a big difference between a flood and running water. It all depends on why "running water" is harmful to undead. If it's to do with fertility or harmony, a steady, calm, predictable life-giving force, then a tsunami isn't going to have the same properties.

It's the same as the difference between a stake and a sharp piece of wood. My personal belief is that a stake kills a vampire because it has the power of the Earth infused into it from being stuck in the ground for decades. Fresh wood doesn't cut it.

Basically, the explanation appears to be that all rivers are the offspring of the Styx, which is absolutely lethal (or post-lethal) for Vivamort and his offspring. Whether or how much Nontraya would be bothered is a different question.

As to stakes - it could be the material rather than the preparation. Wood is a grown material, that used to live.

You might argue that both Stone and Metal (as per gods bones) were grown rather than shaped, too, and I suppose that grown pieces of either will do. An intact godsbone sawed off at an angle should work just as well. And while I doubt it exists in Glorantha outside of Mostali places, plywood (even used as stake for years) wouldn't kill a vampire.

[Minlister]

@PhilHibbs

Quote

It's the same as the difference between a stake and a sharp piece of wood. My personal belief is that a stake kills a vampire because it has the power of the Earth infused into it from being stuck in the ground for decades. Fresh wood doesn't cut it.

That is a really, really interesting line of thought!

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's the same as the difference between a stake and a sharp piece of wood. My personal belief is that a stake kills a vampire because it has the power of the Earth infused into it from being stuck in the ground for decades. Fresh wood doesn't cut it.

So, what about a stake that hasn't been used? Or only once for a camping trip last summer?

And if it's because of the Earth infusion, then metal stakes should also work... (and, if we crossed worlds, plastic).

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, what about a stake that hasn't been used? Or only once for a camping trip last summer?

And if it's because of the Earth infusion, then metal stakes should also work... (and, if we crossed worlds, plastic).

Maybe it's because metal (and plastic) doesn't absorb stuff like wood does. Getting rather off topic here, though, my main point is that these effects of one thing on another are magical and do not necessarily follow simplistic logical thinking. "Moving liquid" is not always "running water". "A piece of wood" is not always "a stake". "Ultraviolet light" is not "sunlight".

[Bill the barbarian]

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe it's because metal (and plastic) doesn't absorb stuff like wood does. Getting rather off topic here, though, my main point is that these effects of one thing on another are magical and do not necessarily follow simplistic logical thinking. "Moving liquid" is not always "running water". "A piece of wood" is not always "a stake". "Ultraviolet light" is not "sunlight".

And a lie is not always a lie... yeah... that's the ticket!.. oops wrong thread!

Thanks Phil and Joerg for answering that query.

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, what about a stake that hasn't been used? Or only once for a camping trip last summer?

Though both posters are correct, the last bit by Phil sums it up quite well! With that original side drift question about running water I let the real world get in the way of my myth.

4 hours ago, Minlister said:

That is a really, really interesting line of thought!

That's what I was thinking!

Cheers

Edited June 25, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe it's because metal (and plastic) doesn't absorb stuff like wood does. Getting rather off topic here, though, my main point is that these effects of one thing on another are magical and do not necessarily follow simplistic logical thinking. "Moving liquid" is not always "running water". "A piece of wood" is not always "a stake". "Ultraviolet light" is not "sunlight".

But... metal comes from the Earth... And especially in Glorantha, with Copper being the Rune Metal for Earth cults, it would make sense that (if your hypothesis is correct) copper weapons work effectively at dropping vampires in the same way that stakes do.

(yes, I know it's heading off topic a little...)

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But... metal comes from the Earth... And especially in Glorantha, with Copper being the Rune Metal for Earth cults, it would make sense that (if your hypothesis is correct) copper weapons work effectively at dropping vampires in the same way that stakes do.

You might be on to something there, perhaps a pointy chunk of raw unrefined cuprite or chalcocite ore would kill a vampire. I bet no-one has tried it, but would you want to be the first to take the risk?

[M Helsdon]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

His Blackthorn trees may have a problem, but Delecti himself may be fine with some lead boots. Breathing isn't part of his job description, and the flood won't be running water.

Dead flesh rots more quickly immersed in water, so he's going to have to change bodies more often, and few fresh ones will be accessible. 

Lots of sea creatures are going to invade the new shallows, and many will find dead meat delicious.

[Joerg]

48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Dead flesh rots more quickly immersed in water, so he's going to have to change bodies more often, and few fresh ones will be accessible. 

Lots of sea creatures are going to invade the new shallows, and many will find dead meat delicious.

Sure. But he has plenty experience with keeping undead active in a damp and flooded environment, and his servants are as immune to asphyxiation as himself.

Sea creatures die and leave corpses, too. Is there a rule that Delecti's corpse has to be human? While the flooding lasts, he might switch to a series of Triolini corpses. Or durulz.

 

I mentioned in an earlier post that a hero of Delecti's stature probably has several manifestations. In accordance with Stewart's (aka @Quackatoa) idea that the durulz may have a special relationship with Delecti, it is possible that the "protector of the durulz" one is somewhat different from the master of the Dancers in Darkness. A "unicorn (or in ths case, undead durulz?) emperor" to the "scorpion-armed broo" Vivamort/Nontraya hero Delecti we all know and fear (using the forms of Ralzakark to make a distinction between the appearance and character of the bad entities).

Stewart, how does the form of Delecti that the durulz appease look like?

[scott-martin]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Moving liquid" is not always "running water".

It's interesting, the mythic ecology of Gloranthan vampires and "running water" revolves around Styx, which is both first "river" and also the surface tension between hell and the later creation. The hatred of Styx ensures that Vivamort can't go home again easy. (He didn't mind, at least at first.) The inheritance of rivers is what unhinges his progeny. 

And of course rivers wash the world down the Whirlpool to be recycled. Waters flowing up on the land don't obey that principle, especially if the drain has been plugged and they have no place left to dump their collective poison. In that model, by the time the Flood gets to Delecti, it's unlikely to mess his people up unless specially sanctified in some way. On the other hand, if and when the plug finally melts and the waters rush back down to the heart of the world, some of them will push back through the Marsh and he could be in trouble.

"Vampires may cross or live in swamps and marshes with impunity," with many such wetlands feeling the taint of chaos and/or evil. We don't know a lot about Sea Chaos. One day we'll learn.

The subject of Earth hatred for vampires is also interesting. Cults of Terror gives Ty Kora Tek gravediggers holy shovels that do aggravated damage. Presumably that would be copper. But in general the vampire subsists by perverting Earth and infecting the fertile dirt itself with stasis and chaos.

The wooden nature of the stake is not explained in RuneQuest terms but there may be a hidden Aldrya betrayal here, or a ghost shadow of the murder of Flamal. This may also be a mask of the passion of Arroin or vice versa.

 

[soltakss]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:05 PM, M Helsdon said:

Well, Delecti is going to have a problem when the Great Flood comes...

Nah, Delecti isn't a vampire and inhabits a corpse, so doesn't need to breathe. 

The Upland Marsh might not survive, through. His vampires need to get out of there quickly, perhaps by getting into boats. All the other undead should be fine and the Zombie Killer Whale would have a wonderful time.

[Shiningbrow]

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Zombie Killer Whale would have a wonderful time.

A whale of a time?

[Sir_Godspeed]

ZOMBIE CRABS!
 

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

ZOMBIE CRABS!
 

 

Not sure which crabs you're referring to... Which sort of freaks me out...