metcalph

We might have to start listing references. Tyram and the Sky Terror do not appear in the Book of Heortling Mythology or King of Sartar. Tyram does appear in the Guide as: The Sky Tyrant is a name of Akorgat in revealed mythologies (p89, p93, p95 and p108). There is another mention of Tyram in the Belorden Fragments Belorden (a companion of Harmast) mentions that when Orlanth was in the same place, he saw the Sky Terror. Hence Tyram as a name entered Orlanthi mythology sometine in the Dawn Age from an unknown place. It's a deduction. Actually a fairly explicit statement of what was in either Lords of Terror or Drastic; Chaos but those are now post-canon. Tyram exists before the God Learners (cf the Belorden Fragments) but is only listed as someone's father as opposed to being an active god in his own right. The Guide reference is said to have come from the Notebook of Baldrus, the Black Reader of Belstos. Since Tyram shares an title with Akorgat and is largely unknown in Heortling mythology, blaming his potency on the God Learners seems an easy step.

Anti-Gods are not Chaotic Gods. The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below. The Gods opposing them, the Parloth, are the Gods of the Sky and Above. When Chaos came, many of the Chaos Gods were associated with Night and Darkness etc and so were classified as Anti-Gods. But Antigods are still not chaotic. Tyram is a Chaos God. He or she does not appear in revealed mythologies or Vithelan mythology as she or he is a God Learner deity (or even a God Learner construct). The God Learners were infamous for stitching together deities from many mythologies into one super-deity. So when Sandy said that Basko might be a part of Tyram, he is referring to this. The Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic. However a worshipper of Tyram might be able to access Basko's magics because of what the God Learners did. These people would be a) regarded as very evil by the human and uz worshippers of the Black Sun b) hunted down and slaughtered on sight or courted assiduously depending on their attitudes towards evil and c) proof of the God Learner's perfidy. The Black Sun claims to be the heir to the Blood Sun. The Blood Sun accepts this after the Black Sun saved them from killing themselves during the Gods War. The Blood Sun was originally the worship of the Sun with the rites of blood-letting and ritual dismemberment. Elements of it may be known elsewhere but it is only in the Kingdom of Ignorance that such a philosophy coalesed into a developed religion. In recent times, it has spread elsewhere to the Lunar Empire and the Eastern Isles. I think that with the rise of the Red Moon, the Blood Sun worshippers have re-interpreted it as the Blood Sun rather than the Sun itself. Similarly the Black Sun worshippers may interpret the Dark Side of the Moon as the real Black Sun. With the recent arrival of caravans from the Redlands, their madness has just gotten real.

I prefer to use Mondator to describe the Artmali of Fonrit and reserve Kungatu for the Artmali of Tarien. True, Jarkaru claims to have conquered more than that but the only verifiable conquest is that of Tishamto. Mondator may have paid tribute to Kungatu or it may have been a distant part of the Kungatuan Empire. This doesn't obscure Kungatuan culture in Fonrit as Afati's people would have acquired some elements when they became annoited as New Artmali. How much they retained after the migration to Laskal is an open question as is the type of culture the Veldang of Fonrit had before their conquest by Garangordos.

Tishamto is ancestral to Fonrit via Afati.

Possibly trolls. Tamalior (Guide p228) is a place in Jonatela which Jonat climbed out with his troll friends.

They'll probably need to cast Protection 2 for the landing.

There was doubt that the Earth Twins were these people?

We do?!? What's the reference?

Corflu is a common shorthand for Correction Fluid. Hence the comment: I think the name comes about because the bay which the Zola Fel runs into was originally known as Christian's Bay (Greg promised Wolm Church to name the bay after his new child and Wilm called the kid Christian Church). You can see the name on the map of Genertela in the 1st edition Nomad Gods rulebookl PDF p67. My thinking is that after a few days Greg wrote Corflu! and an arrow mark to the legend "Christian's Bay" with the intention to erase it. But it looked like he had named a town...

Yelmalio, Elmal etc are the Cold Sun - the Sun as it was in the Storm Age. Yelm is the Golden Age Sun. The planet Lightfore is the Sun as it moves through the Night/Underworld/Great Darkness (I think on that last one). Often when Solar worshippers want to mock worshippers of a rival sun god, they might say "oh, they worship Lightfore". But they are still daytime sun worshippers.

Gods are not equally gods/spirits/essences - the Gods are the Gods. Some Gods are known primarily through the spirits they send, other gods are known only as intellectual abstractions that can be used to acquire spell-knowledge. But how a god manifests its magic is primarily a matter of it and its worshippers history. Writing that someone "theistically worships" X is just plain bad jargonspeak that should be avoided. Gods that are sacrificed to provide rune magic in return. Likewise if X is a God then X cannot be a great spirit. What magics the West King Wind give is an interesting question but using colourless jargon takes all the fun out of it. It is better to proceed accordingly like "It could be really interesting if the WKW provides rune magic to the worshippers of one tribe and spirits to another tribe, the two tribes don't get along and Dranz has his hands full trying to stop them from turning on each other". Think in terms of look and feel is all that I am asking. The Aeolians as a whole worship Gods as the Orlanthi do. They also support the Wizards which the other Orlanthi do not do. The Aeolians have no problems with this because their wizards tell them it is right and proper to worship the Gods. That the wizards of other countries might describe the Wizards of the Aeolians as "barking mental" or "plainly deluded" is neither here or there as the Wizards of the Aeolians have many bad things to say about their unspeakable practices. All wizards duplicate the magic of the gods through their spells. Some wizards believe that it is right and proper to sacrifice to the Gods as well as understand them through their spells. Their reasons for doing so may be diverse within the same school and could easily be critiqued by their philosophical colleagues. For example, some Aeolian wizards might believe that it is right to sacrifice to Orlanth as the highest emanation of the Invisible God. Other Aeolian wizards might say their wrongheaded sacrifices blind themselves to the greater glory of the Invisible God. Think of what the Saint or Great Spirit is famous for. For Oakfed, it is burning things, for Talor, it is acting while infused with Joy and for Pavis, it is understanding and mastery of the Cosmic Body (say). Now the saints and great spirits have done great deeds and these deeds take place on the Otherside. For Oakfed, it is burning down the forests of prax, for Talor it might be not fleeing in terror from the horrific sight of Dorastor and for Pavis, it might be understanding the City as a human body. Now through their orientation, the places on the otherside will be found on the relevant planes (Spirit World for Oakfed, Form World for Pavis and Talor). From there, the worshippers comprehend the mythic deed and obtain the appropriate magic from it. For the followers of Saints, it would be the understanding of their actions and relevant mental exercises to acquire the necessary spell-knowledge. For shamans, spirits emanate from the relevant point in the Spirit World whereupon they can be interacted with. Sacrificing to the saint or spirit over a specific act brings down the relevant place on the otherside and visits that upon the souls of the sacrificers. It is from that, the worshippers could do rune magic. Now success is not automatic as it depends on the source. Talor was a pretty heterodox type of guy so wouldn't have any qualms about providing rune magic. The same is true for Pavis. The wisdom of other Saints might not be so applicable to rune magic (ie they weren't known for their heroic acts)

Other possible re-incarnators are: The Chote Dakpa in Bliss in Ignorance (Guide p288 - he could be the original Shadow of the Storm). Jaldon Toothmaker is said to be re-incarnating (Guide p446) Forang Farosh.

Copper-zinc alloys have been known off since the third millennium according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass#Early_copper_zinc_alloys) although they weren't as good as the Brass made in roman times.

The item he is depicted with is described as a barrel but it is much smaller, the hoops are far wider and also have a visible break in them. As well as the brazen hoops already mentioned, I'm seeing references to wooden hoops (also known as withes). I think the classic barrels are a recent invention gloranthically. These are the best examples I could find.

But coopers aren't necessarily barrel-makers (Hassidor the Cooper of Tarsh is another one - KoS p102). I looked it up when Ian first posted and found that it could be used to a maker of buckets and other wooden containers. The person who put the hoops on the barrel was originally the Hooper which in turn became another synonym.

The Old Wind Temple is described in the Sartar Companion and is desrcibed as a series of caves around a ledge that leads up to a flat shelf that is the Umath's Throne/Orlanth's Camp and which is considered to be the temple proper. But the William Church illustration I was thinking of was (from the Dragon Pass Gazetteer):

All such documents are not part of the canon until they are repeated into Print. This will happen with many documents and will not happen with others. So the compelling evidence for Windmills is not there (yet?)

Seriously? I don't know what argument you are referring to here but there's any number of reasons why I might not disagree with whatever you are saying (keeping the debate focused on the subject at hand rather than responding to another of your digressions, eyes glazing over at the umpteenth mention of the La Tene celtic culture etc). Simply because I chose not to get pick apart whatever particular theory you are pushing does not make it correct or even factual. For the record I think the theory that Saronil stole the idea of Winches is just plain wrong and not worth debating. In the future could you be more aware that you are pushing your own barrows and acknowledge them as such rather than using the silence of others, outdated works or even cryptic conversations with the keepers of the canon as support for them.

Water wheels - mentioned in both Kralorela (Guide p273) and the Lunar Empire (p307) Water mills - known in Peloria since the Dawn Age (look at the Ten Sons and Servants in the Gods Wall Guide p674 - Moruder has a small "baton of authority" despite the foreman being Mohenjar and so the Ten Sons and Servants have two boss figures which seems rather extravagant. The occupation that is missing from the Ten Sons and Servants is the Miller. In the good old days (ie the Golden Age) before they had watermills, they made flour using rolling pins. That Plnetonius interpreted the pon as a baton of authoriity indicates that water mills had superseded rolling pins in the making of flour. Don't know of any Windmills apart from the William Church illustration. Torsion weapons - sold by the dwarves but they clearly trust humans in having them and have done so since the Dawn Age (Culgak - History of the Heortling Peoples p14) and the Horse Nomads (Glorious ReAscent p81) and Sun County (Harpoon). Water Clocks - the Seshnelans have one in Leplain (Guide p417)

Known to the Zistorites (King of Sartar p80). Stormwalk Mountain is described as being in a corkscrew shape (Guide p234) which might indicate that the Holy Country knows what they are.

I see gloranthan arsenic as being reflecting the Malign Earth - which might be as simple as being copper tainted by lead or iron (a eutectic alloy if you want to get all sciencey).

The Dragonspine is a major hill range with five known passes through it. Sartar will have major problems in launching armed invasions or raids against Tarsh in this time. Aggar has a revolt in the highlands which is likely to be long-standing. Who's to say Holay isn't wealthy? If you make such statements, you should be expected to give references to them. And I did not ignore the ILH-1 reference. I said it didn't support what you claimed and was largely a rehash of the statement in King of Sartar which should be preferred.

On request for Furthest growing ILH is not a source you should be wasting time with (and this particular information is just a rehash of the material in King of Sartar). King of Sartar p105 makes it clear that the newcomers are scolars and merchants. I would be very surprised if an influx of scholars and merchants increases a population by more than 500. Secondly KoS makes it plain that the scholars and merchants were impoverished - they didn't come for the higher learning but a change for a better life. You originally described Furthest as a nascent metropolis and used that as support for Tarsh's fabulous wealth. Pointing out that your statement was false should not require the level of tendentiousness you engage in. The sources cited in the discussion do not bear out your conclusion. The only thing I have taken offense is your debating tactics. Focus on what your position is, ground it with supporting references and avoid introducing personal theories with a large amount of unsupported assumptions. On a request for a reference to Heartlands immigrants. And there you go again. I asked for a reference to Heartlands immigrants during the reign of Moirades as we are referring to a migration mentioned in King of Sartar p105. This if anything refers to the establishment of Furthest during the reign of his predecessors. I do not accuse you of not reading sources. I say you waste people's time with unsupported conjectures that you do not even acknowledge making (for example, your theories about the Lunar Provincial University, of which assuming it was in Furthest was the least objectionable conjecture). There was hunger in Moirades reign so your statement is not correct. My statement was: "I think it more likely that Phargentes as Provincial Overseer beggared the other provinces to build up his own personal kingdom in Tarsh." One would have thought the five words at the beginning were enough to disqualify it as an authoritative statement. And for the record since Joerg persists in being smart about this. I am willing to defend what I wrote in the Glorantha: introduction. I have not claimed canonical status for it for quite some time now. I am pleased that many bits of it (such as the Larnsti) still survive in the canon. I endeavour to treat Joerg's own contributions to the canon with similar respect. In other words, Holar and Aggar lie downstream of Tarsh, not just the heartlands. Just a slight fact that human sacrifice was banned throughout the Empire after the Dragonewts Dream when Tarsh was still under Palashee's control (Glorantha Sourcebook p183). When Tarsh was liberated, a new Emperor was in charge with a different set of priorities. So when Phargentes restablished the worship of HonEel, his grandmother, he might have had a freer hand in re-instituting Human Sacrifice. Except for the slight matter than Sylila grows rice whereas Holay and Aggar do not (Guide map p302).

Rather than rely on a hoary old document, you could have used the Guide p175 "He achieved Illumination and used Lunar magic to soar into the heights of personal transformation" (Glorantha Sourcebook says something similar on p22 and p26). Even the Genertela Book p56 has him studying "the subtleties of Lunar magic and fashionable decadence and is steeped in both". Secondly Moirades was responsible for Terasarin's death was something that you should have mentioned in your previous post. We lesser readers do not have telepathy and thus require humble words to follow the trail of your august thoughts. First Big Assumption: Moirades is a research magician. Modern literature makes it clear that Moraides was focused on self-transformation rather than masterclass scrying. Second Big Assumption: The university that Moirades founded was any good in long distance magics. I find this highly doubtful in that the supposed prowess of these provincial university magicians is rather light on the record in that an effete layabout in Dangerford is the only person we know to have attended it. That's actually a repeat of a similar text in King of Sartar p121, hence an error that slipped in through a cut-and-paste is most likely. The Glorantha Sourcebook p33 has Fazzur petitioning his brother-in-law Pharandros for command of the relieving army, which not only gives the current King's name but also inverts the request. Which is as it should be. The Fazzurites fell out with Pharandros. Hence any deeds which they acted with royal sanction are backdated to Moirades. Once more. The CHDP text does not mention "starving folk in the Heartlands". It mentions "starving peasants" who were down river of Tarsh. Other portions of Moirades biography that agree with the 1610 death date are: Defeat of the Tarsh Exiles in 1582. Bringing the Red-tailed flycatchers, marrying the Feathered Horse Queen (Glorantha Sourcebook p17 gives this as Virkala Tor in 1604 ST). Hence I fail to see the significance of the data on the university agreeing with his death date considering that we are not told the date of establishment of the provincial university. I actually did. I said: "This information" being your claim that Tarsh under Moirades was wealthy enough to support a new University, buy off the Feathered Horse Queen and turn Furthest into a nascent metropolis. I took the trouble of looking it up and the supporting evidence is not there. All that is there is Tarsh's wealth comes from grain and maize which nobody is disputing." In other words, I haven't seen anything to contradict my theory except for that explicit mention which I'll just choose to ignore. Which is entirely the wrong approach. What you should be doing is invoking My Glorantha Varies. "Reasonably" requires a number of assumptions. The rightness or wrongness of this theory is unimportant. What I dispute is your thesis that in order for this to happen 1) Moirades must have been a research magician 2) Moirades required the use of his own private university 3) This university must have been in Furthest rather than Mirin';s Cross 4) This university must have been the equal of the Lunar Field College of Magic 5) The colossal sums of money required to set up this university was only possible through Tarsh becoming ridiculously wealthy through feeding the Heartlands. An alternative explanation: Moirades wanted Terasarin dead. He had magicians of various backgrounds working for him at the Temple of the Reaching Moon. Through patient scrying over a number of years, they located Terasarin and immediately sent a moonbeam which caused his death. That doesn't require as many absurd assumptions that your own theory mandates. The trouble is that you say the gain is destined only for the Heartlands when the other Lunar Provinces could also require some grain. The massive wealth you claim for Tarsh requires a number of assumptions (that the Provincial University in Furthest is the equal of the Lunar Field College etc) that are simply unsupportable.

I'm quite happy to endorse Martin's opinion that the books aren't very good but place the blame for a number of factors that do not include the authors being crap. 1) Too many invented details. There's nothing wrong with the authors making up details to fill in the blank spots. Some of the invented details in the Handbooks were recycled for the Guide. But in the Handbooks, many details are simply unpolished and in other cases, they simply devour space that could have been devoted to existing lunar cults (Henshelek instead of Irrippi Ontor). 2) A lack of any conflict. In the ILH-1, an extensive treatment of a Lunar Association is given along with their friends and allies. Who are they opposed to? We are not told. The Lunars are plotting to restore Gbaji/Nysalor, Send Valu as an agent of Zanch Mator, the White Moonies are going to rebel - all these conflicts were known about during the writing of the Handbooks but there is little attention paid to them. Even the chaoticness of the Lunar Empire is played down. The effect comes of reading a description of the Kingdom of Gondor which avoids any mention of Sauron, Saruman or Umbar. Undoubtedly a better editorial direction along with a instruction to the authors to stick to canon over flights of fancy would have vastly improved matters.