Killing the Golden Goose

[Sumath]

@TrifletraxorFor what it's worth, I don't think censorship is really an answer to opinions we disagree with, and I appreciate the sensible level of moderation on these boards.

@Cultist of Sooty I would just like to say that the vast majority of people I've engaged with on these forums are wholly welcoming, reasonable and chilled, and are just interested in making their games better and talking about those games, rather than pushing any kind of agenda. So please do not feel that this is not a place for you - it absolutely is.

[Iyan]

I never log in or comment anything on here, but I guess sometime would have to be the first. First off:

1) I’m female

2) I’m a white heterosexual female leaving me in a position of privilege, which I recognise and accept, and I do attempt to be aware of my privilege. 

3) I am pro inclusivity and acceptance of people’s differing opinions - the two not being mutually exclusive of one another. Openness > censorship. 

4) I enjoy balanced discourse free of baiting and ad hominem attacks

 

I’m seeing some worrying tendencies here from people who I think are on the same page as me but creating a chasm between people with the rhetoric. 

The agreement among some here that it seems like Chaosium has taken sides is troublesome, and I’ll explain why I find it so. 

SJW used to be about social justice, for all, inclusivity and so on. Help give voice to those who have had a lesser voice or none at all, demanding businesses take responsibility for problematic behaviour like using child slave labour, only white models etc. It was a good thing, and should still be a good thing because it’s needed.  

That being said, In the later years there have been several attempts at having businesses lose their customers over lesser problematic behaviour (like a white manager having dreadlocks and refusing to cut them off). Blowing it up, putting in some half truths and so on and spreading this information through the right channels  and scaring other businesses to jump on command in fear of the same treatment, has been very successful. There are businesses who have been targeted without deserving it, and lost business. 

My problem with this is that it seems not all of this activism is done in good faith.  My opinion is that this is what is happening here . Actually targeting Chaosium when the company has clearly shown through latest publications where they stand... I find that kind of discourse bordering on dishonest, and a way to attempt a full split and conquer while silently sneaking into that threat-realm that should be avoided at all cost. I could of course be wrong about all of this.  

As has been stated, this forum has been pretty much self-moderating, people have been behaving. Suddenly this comes up and out comes the nasty, and I’d have to say the nasty has been showing on all “sides”. 

I think a wiser path towards the subject of inclusivity would be a more factual and informational thread. Know your audience. Don’t just present facts that make no sense to people. And understand that not everyone grew up in the US with the same reference frame as this kind of thinking comes from.

I am aware that me as a white person saying this would be seen as white privilege in itself. I’m aware that the emotional energy spent to educate can be very taxing. It’s just that the attitude of “I said X, now you accept X” doesn’t work on all.. so what is the goal then? Seethe in righteous anger? 

Not everyone will agree no matter how much they’re yelled at. And no ones always wrong or right. 

As for not addressing the “other” side: it has basically just been one person acting problematic there, and addressed by admin. One person. And that managed to get people questioning Chaosiums  standpoint, disregarding all evidence of the opposite. 

/end rant

 

 

 

 

[rsanford]

15 hours ago, g33k said:

I hope this is something -- that multiple fans "feel like" (rightly or wrongly) the Mod's here will side with racists and sexists, rather than siding with people they slight -- that gets @Trifletraxor and @Jeff and @Ellie and a HUGE bunch of @Others @Chaosium (and yes, I know Triff isn't Chaosium) start talking about WTF is going on, and why fans feel this way.

 

See this is an example of the NEW problem we have here at the site. People calling or implying that others on this site or racists or sexists. And pertaining to the previous discussion some people think its okay and right to insult people they don't agree with that. That behavior just started.

 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Iyan said:

... My problem with this is that it seems not all of this activism is done in good faith.  My opinion is that this is what is happening here . Actually targeting Chaosium when the company has clearly shown through latest publications where they stand... I find that kind of discourse bordering on dishonest, and a way to attempt a full split and conquer while silently sneaking into that threat-realm that should be avoided at all cost. I could of course be wrong about all of this ...

I /think/ that you are mistaken in reading any "threat" here...?

Nobody on any side (that I have seen) has suggested any sort of boycott, of organizing a letter-writing campaign, of summoning a Troll Army or enacting DoS attack etc etc etc.

Some people have expressed the belief that Chaosium / CoC is acting in ways (and producing content) that won't sell because the market won't like it.  Those arguments have always seemed to me to be honest and straightforward statements, if sometimes misguided or mistaken in judging the market.

You may have seen something I haven't, either because yours is a more nuanced reading than mine, or because someone thought better of an AngryRant and edited out the most inflammatory bits before those electrons ever reached me ...

Also -- welcome to the Great Land of Posting!    😎

Hope you continue!    😁

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by g33k
Typo

[soltakss]

18 hours ago, midwinter said:

Ok, maybe I'm paranoid but I think the latest posts are about me. If it is, just spit it out. Am I the toxic person with hurtful language? Do I chase people away from Chaosium? Less than 70 posts and I have discouraged a part of the company's fanbase? That is amazing, really. If I had clones, I would put them out of business I guess. I thought only a certain Swedish rpg forum was this delicate and sensitive but this actually takes the cake if it means what I think it means.

No, not about you, in particular. 

However, your posting style can be very abrasive, which can be very off-putting for some people. It can also be aggressive, again this can be very off-putting.

I don't think it is about any one person, however, when several people with similar styles engage in battles, that can put people off. Also, when several people pile onto a post in an aggressive manner, that can be very daunting.

[soltakss]

It might be worth starting a conversation about what kind of site we want at BRP Central.

Personally, I don't want it morphing into another The RPG Site, which is what seems to be happening.

I would prefer a friendly site where everyone can feel free to post and nobody is so intimidated by the nature or style of posting that they feel they cannot post.

If I wanted a site like that, I would go to The RPG Site, which I often do.

[rsanford]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

It might be worth starting a conversation about what kind of site we want at BRP Central.

Personally, I don't want it morphing into another The RPG Site, which is what seems to be happening.

I would prefer a friendly site where everyone can feel free to post and nobody is so intimidated by the nature or style of posting that they feel they cannot post.

If I wanted a site like that, I would go to The RPG Site, which I often do.

I would be much more worried that it will turn into rpg.net where companies and individuals have to be politically correct are face indiscriminate bashing. If you want to model something, model rpgpub.com

[Trifletraxor]

Just had to hide another post with racist accusations. This better stop too.

[...]

There were not any racist accusations, that is a lie. Chaosium is losing a customer due to you.

[Trifletraxor]

28 minutes ago, dragoner said:

There were not any racist accusations, that is a lie. Chaosium is losing a customer due to you.

That might not have been what you meant, but that was how I read it and it certainly continued the debate in the same aggressive manner after midwinter agreed to withdraw. You also seem quite eager to continue it now which I have no wish to see. Take 7 days off to cool down. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Trifletraxor
typo in username

[Stew Stansfield]

14 minutes ago, Trifletraxor said:

That might not have been what you meant, but that was how I read it and it certainly continued the debate in the same aggressive manner after midwinter agreed to withdraw. You also seem quite eager to continue it now which I have no wish to see. Take 7 days off to cool down. 

Trif, it's quite clear that you aren't twigging how this is escalating - or why it escalated. You played a significant part in this when you dropped a bollock and referred to 'SJWs' and 'red-pillers' in your initial moderation, which just helped set things off.

Now it's your site, sure. But it's not just your site site since it became Chaosium's promoted forum. If it's to remain that, I don't see how this trend is sustainable. If the only overt moderation after this nonsense is for you to give a week ban to someone who is complaining about potential issues of prejudice—however misplaced you feel that complaint might be—this is only going to get worse.

Even on a cynical level the optics are fucking awful, to put it mildly - irrespective of how any of us might feel on the ethical issues actually being discussed.

[g33k]

9 hours ago, rsanford said:

See this is an example of the NEW problem we have here at the site. People calling or implying that others on this site or racists or sexists. And pertaining to the previous discussion some people think its okay and right to insult people they don't agree with that. That behavior just started.

The issue comes up when the topic revolves around "is HPL racist / sexist / etc-ist, and how much (or at all) that belongs at the gaming table (or in discussion on a forum)."

Every table will play how they want to.  I don't expect that any of this chatter here will affect anybody's play there.

But when somebody raises the topic on the forum... 

If someone says "don't discuss the topic of how HPL's writings (or Chaosium's RPG) has (or promotes in play) sexism/racism/etc; that topic is verboten!" or makes claims that "nuChaosium products are too inclusive, and I don't want to see that stuff..."

That IS sexism/racism/whatever-ism.

*** PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT THE PEOPLE WRITING THOSE POSTS ARE SEXIST/RACIST/WHATEVER-IST. ***

I have absolutely ZERO belief that the OP @seneschal is racist or whatever-ist.

See instead the discussion above on "Privilege," where someone who doesn't notice an issue -- because they are privileged not to have been facing it in their daily life -- denies that the problem exists, or says that it isn't a big enough problem to matter, or that those other people shouldn't talk about this problem that exists...

The people writing those posts have demonstrated that they are privileged; no more, no less.  They have NOT demonstrated that they, personally, subscribe to the belief; but that they don't see it when it's there.

But the posts themselves, because they are blind to the issue that other people see, and deny that people should talk about a problem they see... The posts look racist/sexist/whatever-ist.

And... what, Trif?  If we see this, the folks who say, "shut up with your woke-ness, there is no issue here" get to say that?  And the default BRPC stance is "nothing to see here (except complicit, "there is no issue" silence) move along"?

Edited August 17, 2019 by g33k
typo

[Iyan]

Is it too much to ask people to self moderate some? Breathe in and out and re-read before posting. Ask yourself if you are attacking people or a group of people disagreeing with you. If you are, you are off. Go back to discussing the actual topic, which I think had something to do with owning or not owning up to HPLs extremely problematic views and so on and so forth.  Which is actually very interesting as opposed to what this thread turned into. (The You here is general, no person or persons implied.)

G33k, you do have a point in there being a difference between an action being racist and the person doing it being a racist. However we are once again back on the where we are. People are not used to discussing privilege and racism in this way, and in the heated discussion and name-calling in this thread, the actual difference has failed to come across sufficiently. 

 

 

 

 

[Trifletraxor]

2 hours ago, Quackatoa said:

Trif, it's quite clear that you aren't twigging how this is escalating - or why it escalated. You played a significant part in this when you dropped a bollock and referred to 'SJWs' and 'red-pillers' in your initial moderation, which just helped set things off.

Now it's your site, sure. But it's not just your site site since it became Chaosium's promoted forum. If it's to remain that, I don't see how this trend is sustainable. If the only overt moderation after this nonsense is for you to give a week ban to someone who is complaining about potential issues of prejudice—however misplaced you feel that complaint might be—this is only going to get worse.

Even on a cynical level the optics are fucking awful, to put it mildly - irrespective of how any of us might feel on the ethical issues actually being discussed.

Two of the worst posts in my opinion (now hidden) were written before by initial moderation, so I'm not buying that I played a significant part in setting things off. Sure, as I've allready stated, I should not have used those terms, and I might not "twig" the situation since I'm not used to this destructive debate form. Being from Norway I politically lean far to the left of the average american, but I do not think that aggressively debating the rightousness of your views and the moral fallacy of your opponents' is constructive in any way. Inclusivity loses its meaning if it only refers to those who share your opinions. 

I've done more moderation the last three days than I've done the last three years before that and I would like that trend to stop. My post to midwinter specifically and the rest of the keyboard warriors in general was overt moderation if you did not notice that. midwinter heeded it and dragoner was the first to blatantly ignore it. His post was hidden and another post with overt moderation was posted in response,  and he was only banned for a week after he continued to be disagreeable after that. 

 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

...

And... what, Trif?  If we see this, the folks who say, "shut up with your woke-ness, there is no issue here" get to say that?  And the default BRPC stance is "nothing to see here (except complicit, "there is no issue" silence) move along"?

Could I suggest that you state your opinion, and then yes, actually move along? The silence is not complicit as you imply, but there are better things to do in life than propogating unpleasant arguments with strangers on the internet. And if that is your thing, then there are better forums for it than here. 

[Trifletraxor]

And with that I'll take the advice I just got and move along by locking this topic...