What kind of Site do we want for BRP Central?

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, midwinter said:

Treat Each Other Respectfully and Islam in the same breath?

I'm not a Moderator, but just knock it off.

This is a Forum about RPG Games, not about real world religions or your intolerance of some of them. There are many sites that would welcome bigoted views, so you can hapily post on those.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, Trifletraxor said:

My comment was not directed at you Qizilibashwoman, but the earlier Trump and Islam comments in this thread. 

I appreciate the clarification

be excellent to each other

[TheEnclave]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

I'm not a Moderator, but just knock it off.

This is a Forum about RPG Games, not about real world religions or your intolerance of some of them. There are many sites that would welcome bigoted views, so you can hapily post on those.

You could phrase this without stepping into politics/religious debate yourself, honestly.

We all should just drop the subject.

Edited September 28, 2019 by TheEnclave

[RosenMcStern]

This is an official complaint, and by a moderator. And I am posting it here because one of the reasons why I am complaining is that we do not even have a mechanism in place that allows moderators to exchange about potential - or actual - violations. 

During the last few weeks I had an incident in my forum. One member posted a thread - clearly labelled "joke" - with a lighthearted pun about gays. Nothing terrible, but prone to misunderstandings. I reviewed it and considered it "borderline", i.e. acceptable but risky. I wondered whether to issue a warning about it, but since no one else reacted I simply let it slip as harmless. Some days later I found the thread "hidden", with no mention of who did it and why, but the reason at least was obvious. I PMed the author with a very soft warning and left it hidden but I still do not know who moderated it. Perhaps Sverre.

Needless to say, threads that appear or disappear for understandable reasons but without official guidelines and without communication among moderators are not a good sign. The fact that this thread contains one post that I would clearly mark as "Islamophobe" is another "red flag". The suspicion that things could get out of control starts to be legitimate.

So in brief, the issues I see in the current situation are:

• There are no clear guidelines for moderation. Trif has announced some new procedures, but at the moment we have tens of thousands of members and no rules at all. This is not an ideal situation, particularly in an age when inappropriate comments about politics and religion are everywhere on the Internet.
• There is no appeal mechanism. Whoever is banned cannot have his/her case heard. In some cases, people may not even be aware that someone has ben kicked out, and why. Which, in addition to rules being non-explicit, makes the whole thing sound entirely arbitrary.
• There is no area where moderators can exchange their views on . See my report about the hidden message above.

In short, I am hereby claiming that with the size that BRP Central has reached and the current social context of most of the Western world, "people, let us keep it civil" is no longer enough as rules. It has worked for many years, but it is no longer the case. We need something explicit, and procedures to review and enforce the most serious cases. Nothing monumental, but at least something that tries to tells people "This is what is ok / not ok here" and "If you disagree with something, say it here rather than disseminate the forum with off topics".

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

In short, I am hereby claiming that with the size that BRP Central has reached and the current social context of most of the Western world, "people, let us keep it civil" is no longer enough as rules. It has worked for many years, but it is no longer the case. We need something explicit, and procedures to review and enforce the most serious cases. Nothing monumental, but at least something that tries to tells people "This is what is ok / not ok here" and "If you disagree with something, say it here rather than disseminate the forum with off topics".

Now it's too bad it is getting to a “and this is why we can’t have nice things” state. Alas.

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now it's too bad it is getting to a “and this is why we can’t have nice things” state. Alas.

I can't speak for the other moderators, but I think we are pretty much able to keep having nice things without a long list of regulations. Although we have the occasional chuckle-head, I trust most everyone on this forum to Be Excellent To Each Other. And if you wander off into un-excellent territory, I trust most of you to react to a simple warning to knock it off. The audience on this forum is for the most part excellent. The rare chuckleheads to the contrary are the exceptions that prove the rule.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

I can't speak for the other moderators, but I think we are pretty much able to keep having nice things without a long list of regulations. Although we have the occasional chuckle-head, I trust most everyone on this forum to Be Excellent To Each Other. And if you wander off into un-excellent territory, I trust most of you to react to a simple warning to knock it off. The audience on this forum is for the most part excellent. The rare chuckleheads to the contrary are the exceptions that prove the rule.

This would be nice. BRP central has been built by nice people, contributed to by nice people and is a nice thing that I want to have.

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, TheEnclave said:

You could phrase this without stepping into politics/religious debate yourself, honestly.

I  might have overreacted, apologies if I did.

[TheEnclave]

12 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

 the current social context of most of the Western world

Therein lies the problem. Game forums don't need to have anything relating to modern politics or current events. I agree with Jeff that things should be kept loose. "Be respectful to each other" is more than enough, and whatever the "current social context" is of anything, anywhere, any time, is wholly irrelevant to how things should be run, IMO. Especially if allowed to influence moderation I feel that that could cloud judgement and lead to decisions based on personal beliefs rather than objective rule enforcement; not that I'm accusing you of that, but that I've seen it happen before, and at that point bias starts leading administrative action. Things should remain as neutral and informal as possible in that regard I feel. Either way I agree giving people a chance to get unbanned is a good move all the same.

Edited September 29, 2019 by TheEnclave

[g33k]

Ultimately, I go back to this is Triff's house.  Even Chaosium are guests here.

So while I may agree with this (and I do):

19 hours ago, TheEnclave said:

... I agree giving people a chance to get unbanned is a good move all the same.

I see that as Triff's call.  Maybe he wants our input, maybe he doesn't.

If he does, I expect he'll ... I dunno... put up polls or something? ... to get a sense of how many folks want what sorts of policies.

 

[g33k]

20 hours ago, TheEnclave said:

Therein lies the problem. Game forums don't need to have anything relating to modern politics or current events. ... and whatever the "current social context" is of anything, anywhere, any time, is wholly irrelevant to how things should be run ...

Therein, as you say, lies the problem.

Who gets to decide what's "modern politics" etc?  The mods, I guess?

Suppose someone does some stuff with... hmm, with obvious SpaceNazi's in it... is that political?  I mean, gamers have had SpaceNazi's since forever!  So it's all good.

But what if someone else sees it as obvious SpaceAltRight?  That's getting... well, pretty f'ing political, right there!

Who catches mod ire?  The one who posted obvious SpaceNazi's or the one who pointed out the SpaceAltRight?  Both?  Or ... ?

 

Not to mention when the creation gets more complex, with elements of fascism, but other elements too!

 

20 hours ago, TheEnclave said:

 ... I agree with Jeff that things should be kept loose ...

In the end, this may be the very best approach.

The more things get codified and pinned down, the more the rules-lawyer types (on all sides of an issue) will find ways to slip through the loopholes.

People are pretty darned good at spotting the BS and know-it-when-they-see-it.  Rigid codified rules not so much...

 

But as I said above:  ultimately, this is Triff's house.  So his rules.

 

[TheEnclave]

Spacecommunists, spacenazis, spacewhatevers, it's irrelevant as far as any current events or the "current climate" goes.

I say ignore all that and just be cool to each other and have fun. We live and we let live.

Edited September 29, 2019 by TheEnclave

[Trifletraxor]

On 9/28/2019 at 3:57 PM, RosenMcStern said:

So in brief, the issues I see in the current situation are:

• There are no clear guidelines for moderation. Trif has announced some new procedures, but at the moment we have tens of thousands of members and no rules at all. This is not an ideal situation, particularly in an age when inappropriate comments about politics and religion are everywhere on the Internet.
• There is no appeal mechanism. Whoever is banned cannot have his/her case heard. In some cases, people may not even be aware that someone has ben kicked out, and why. Which, in addition to rules being non-explicit, makes the whole thing sound entirely arbitrary.
• There is no area where moderators can exchange their views on . See my report about the hidden message above.

In short, I am hereby claiming that with the size that BRP Central has reached and the current social context of most of the Western world, "people, let us keep it civil" is no longer enough as rules. It has worked for many years, but it is no longer the case. We need something explicit, and procedures to review and enforce the most serious cases. Nothing monumental, but at least something that tries to tells people "This is what is ok / not ok here" and "If you disagree with something, say it here rather than disseminate the forum with off topics".

I think "keep it civil" is probably as good a rule we can get, and it's heeded by the overwelming majority of our members. Making clear guidelines for moderation is no easy task. This is a RPG site, so real world politics and religion really have no place here. Everyone is welcome here whether they think Hillary is a goddess or Trump is the second coming of Christ, whether they are mens rights activists or opponents of the oppressive patriarchy, or hold any other polarized opinion, but dicussions and comments about which of those viewpoints are right should preferably be taken elsewhere, as this is a roleplaying game site. Self-moderation is key. 

So far, only spammers have been permanently banned and only a single member have received a temporary ban. It's a last resort if warning points with 24 hr and 7 days  posting restrictions and 30 day temporary banning does not alter behaviour. There is a moderator control panel where the global moderators receive reports about posts and can comment/discuss them. We aim to still keep it moderation-light.

[Jeff]

25 minutes ago, Trifletraxor said:

I think "keep it civil" is probably as good a rule we can get, and it's heeded by the overwelming majority of our members. Making clear guidelines for moderation is no easy task. This is a RPG site, so real world politics and religion really have no place here. Everyone is welcome here whether they think Hillary is a goddess or Trump is the second coming of Christ, whether they are mens rights activists or opponents of the oppressive patriarchy, or hold any other polarized opinion, but dicussions and comments about which of those viewpoints are right should preferably be taken elsewhere, as this is a roleplaying game site. Self-moderation is key. 

So far, only spammers have been permanently banned and only a single member have received a temporary ban. It's a last resort if warning points with 24 hr and 7 days  posting restrictions and 30 day temporary banning does not alter behaviour. There is a moderator control panel where the global moderators receive reports about posts and can comment/discuss them. We aim to still keep it moderation-light.

I agree with our glorious overlord 100%. 

I am a lazy moderator and expect you all to possess enough self-restraint to let me remain a lazy moderator.

[klecser]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:03 PM, Trifletraxor said:

This is a RPG site, so real world politics and religion really have no place here.

Except that there are issues of politics and games that DO intersect. All of the examples you gave are good examples of ones that should be off a forum.

But I have a real problem with people making political statements like: "products that acknowledge the humanity of people I don't like shouldn't be in games." That is a political statement. It is the politics of excluding people. Granted, it's small-group politics. But it is still politics. And it has been made several times by various members. Some of us have objected to statements like that, as being both political AND bad for a gaming forum, and then essentially been told that we have brought politics into it. There are some small-group politics that affect the efficacy of the hobby. Like inclusive mindsets.

So, do I want discussions about political leaders and fights between religions? Of course not.

But I also don't appreciate people making politicized statements about who "belongs" in games and objections to those statements being treated as if they are the problem. Because this is an issue central to games, and if we can't discuss it or defend inclusive gaming, then it's only a matter of time before society leaves the Forum behind. This hobby is predicated on welcoming people.

[seneschal]

I've been a poster here about eight or so years.  Up until a little earlier this year it has all been good clean fun.  We might shred each other about whether Gloranthians use stirrups (sorry, soltakiss) but arguing about rules and settings is what a roleplaying forum is for and we always came back together at the end of the day to celebrate the games we love.  I'm not sure what has happened but any disturbance my comments may have caused was intended to restore that friendly camaraderie among us folks who enjoy pretending with dice.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, klecser said:

Except that there are issues of politics and games that DO intersect. All of the examples you gave are good examples of ones that should be off a forum.

 

2 hours ago, seneschal said:

I've been a poster here about eight or so years.  Up until a little earlier this year it has all been good clean fun.  We might shred each other about whether Gloranthians use stirrups (sorry, soltakiss) but arguing about rules and settings is what a roleplaying forum is for and we always came back together at the end of the day to celebrate the games we love.  I'm not sure what has happened but any disturbance my comments may have caused was intended to restore that friendly camaraderie among us folks who enjoy pretending with dice.

Yeah, been there, done that, Been watching these fora for a bit and seneschal is correct. Something changed,

I hope it was not me going from lurker (looooonnnggg time lurker) to poster. I hope not, truly truly hope not, so I have gone out of my way to be nicer and more civil than I actually am (don’t get on my badside on a bad day under a bad sign irl, is all I am saying, but really who would do that?) . At least that is how I am perceiving reality here. I am here for entertainment and while I do not want to piss in anyones cornflakes I am willing to be only so serious about my entertainment before my funny bone (funny whole fuckin body, p’raps) begins to misbehave. Bad funny bone, bad! 

klescer, you seem like a good, reasonably (great word for this topic) intelligent and discerning enough to tell the difference, sort of like many here, I think Thumper’s rule aught to cover politics nicely...

Quote

If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all!
 

Well, by intent anyways. If not in actual fact. Don’t call no-one a nazi, they will do that quite nicely all by themselves. Just like personal attacks, just say no. I like a good political thing too and will sometimes weigh in on an argument one way of the other, and think I have actually got away with using political themes as analogs a couple of times. But by not using judgements. I mean, after all why piss in someone's cornflakes? Just what am I doing wasting my time doing so, no benefit to me. As much work as I put into this thing, it is still a game to me. 

I have told a few to ‘Knock if off" here in perhaps nicer words, but by choosing my battles, I think the voice has a little more effect.Anyway something has changed of late and I hope that by being nice and funny (in my very subjective opinion anyway) I think we can make a dent in that background hum, hmmm?

Cheers!

Edited October 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[klecser]

There are people here who are chasing people away from the hobby.  I'm betting that they don't even realize they're doing it. And no, it isn't me.

People have always done this. It isn't unique to this forum. But it's here. You can deny it all you want. It's here.

"You're totally welcome in gaming! That is, so long as you don't talk about anything that makes me uncomfortable, or that I define as "politics," (and therefore completely unacceptable to speak about) or that is important to you, but not to me and my circle. You know, so long as I get to deny what is important to you, you're welcome here."

That isn't welcoming people. It's snide, disingenuous, and exclusionary.

You either want to stop it, because it is bad for the hobby, or you don't. And you enable it. 

What kind of site do I want for BRP Central?

I'd like to think one that actually welcomes gamers, no matter how diverse and different their views are. And if that isn't what the rest of you want, that's fine. Keep the hobby a Good ol' Boys Club.

I will never be a part of that club.

[Trifletraxor]

Maybe not the most constructive post klecser. Sounds a lot like a baiting rant looking for a triggered response...

[RosenMcStern]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:03 PM, Trifletraxor said:

I think "keep it civil" is probably as good a rule we can get, and it's heeded by the overwelming majority of our members. Making clear guidelines for moderation is no easy task. This is a RPG site, so real world politics and religion really have no place here. Everyone is welcome here whether they think Hillary is a goddess or Trump is the second coming of Christ, whether they are mens rights activists or opponents of the oppressive patriarchy, or hold any other polarized opinion, but dicussions and comments about which of those viewpoints are right should preferably be taken elsewhere, as this is a roleplaying game site. Self-moderation is key. 

So far, only spammers have been permanently banned and only a single member have received a temporary ban. It's a last resort if warning points with 24 hr and 7 days  posting restrictions and 30 day temporary banning does not alter behaviour. There is a moderator control panel where the global moderators receive reports about posts and can comment/discuss them. We aim to still keep it moderation-light.

This answer is fully acceptable.

However, I have two more questions, because something does not add up too well in my mind.

First. The moderation took action against one post in this very thread. Due action, in my opinion. However, in order to learn that one inacceptable comment has been rightfully sanctioned, one must have a look at other sites, where the offender started a classic cross-forum drama - and got sanctioned again, btw. In what way is this secrecy useful to the well being of our community? Particularly when the details that are kept behind closed doors here end up in the public domain elsewhere?

Second question: Trif, you stated that only spammers have been banned, plus one member received a temporary ban - I suppose the guy whom I am referring to above.  However, how does this reconcile with MOB's statement in this post:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7685-four-features-that-help-make-runequest distinct-among-other-roleplaying-games/?tab=comments#comment-107845

that one particular "keyboard warrior" had been preemptively and permanently banned from this community? Because that specific case was certainly not about spamming. Incivil behaviour yes, but not spamming. Also, am i wrong in thinking that "preemptive" means that the person has been banned for something he has done on another board?

 

[RosenMcStern]

20 hours ago, seneschal said:

I've been a poster here about eight or so years.  Up until a little earlier this year it has all been good clean fun.  We might shred each other about whether Gloranthians use stirrups (sorry, soltakiss) but arguing about rules and settings is what a roleplaying forum is for and we always came back together at the end of the day to celebrate the games we love.  I'm not sure what has happened but any disturbance my comments may have caused was intended to restore that friendly camaraderie among us folks who enjoy pretending with dice.

Sheer numbers are already an explanation, Seneschal. Let us assume that the ratio of "people who can act with self restraint" / "people who act idiotically" is 100:1, which is probably true for this esteemed community. This means that with 1000 active members, you have 10 morons who post trash, and 990 reasonable people who refrain from responding. With 10,000 members, you have 100 morons and a whopping 9,900 decent human beings. Now the principle of the growing forest making way less noise than a single falling tree kicks in: 9,900 people who behave "excellently" make the exact same noise as when they were 990, but 100 idiots create much more trouble than 10. 

 

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

This answer is fully acceptable.

However, I have two more questions, because something does not add up too well in my mind.

First. The moderation took action against one post in this very thread. Due action, in my opinion. However, in order to learn that one inacceptable comment has been rightfully sanctioned, one must have a look at other sites, where the offender started a classic cross-forum drama - and got sanctioned again, btw. In what way is this secrecy useful to the well being of our community? Particularly when the details that are kept behind closed doors here end up in the public domain elsewhere?

Second question: Trif, you stated that only spammers have been banned, plus one member received a temporary ban - I suppose the guy whom I am referring to above.  However, how does this reconcile with MOB's statement in this post:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7685-four-features-that-help-make-runequest distinct-among-other-roleplaying-games/?tab=comments#comment-107845

that one particular "keyboard warrior" had been preemptively and permanently banned from this community? Because that specific case was certainly not about spamming. Incivil behaviour yes, but not spamming. Also, am i wrong in thinking that "preemptive" means that the person has been banned for something he has done on another board?

 

The person in question expressed a hope that Mob and his family would get killed. People who make any sort of death threats or wishes against anyone at Chaosium (or heck just anyone) are not going to be tolerated here. We don't need a formal policy for that, as that sort of stuff happens very infrequently. Like only once.

Let's put things in perspective - there have been four, maybe five people who have gotten stern warnings since 2015 (as opposed to the milder, "Knock It Off"). That's not many. One left the forum. One became a repeat offender and is now in a month-long time out. And the others are fine and product "citizens" of the forum.

[RosenMcStern]

Jeff, I know perfectly what that person told to MOB (I read it) and I do not condone it. My question was :

1. How does it reconcile with Triff's statement above about "only spammers".

2. Can people get banned here for what they do elsewhere?

Apparently, the answer to question #2 is "yes".

[Trifletraxor]

25 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

Jeff, I know perfectly what that person told to MOB (I read it) and I do not condone it. My question was :

1. How does it reconcile with Triff's statement above about "only spammers".

2. Can people get banned here for what they do elsewhere?

Apparently, the answer to question #2 is "yes".

My mistake, forgot that person, so my statement was incorrect. Concerning the "secrecy", I'm not sure whether it is useful or unuseful, but my thinking is that publicly stating that a member has gotten a warning (or in the case we're talking about a temp ban) does not neccesarily reduce tempers. 

[RosenMcStern]

Just now, Trifletraxor said:

My mistake, forgot that person, so my statement was incorrect. Concerning the "secrecy", I'm not sure whether it is useful or unuseful, but my thinking is that publicly stating that a member has gotten a warning (or in the case we're talking about a temp ban) does not neccesarily reduce tempers. 

Well, I think we have to agree to disagree on this subject.

My questions were answered in full. My objections also stay in full, but I see no reason to continue the discussion, as this could lead someone to looking for the transcripts of the "episode" on the internet. And believe me, it is not "educational".