Travelling Shelter

[Dan Z]

What sorts of shelter are used when travelling in large groups in Sartar?  What about Prax and Lunar Empire?  I feel like most of the time we just assume tents but are there particular types that are prevalent in different regions?

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Dan Z said:

What sorts of shelter are used when travelling in large groups in Sartar?  What about Prax and Lunar Empire?  I feel like most of the time we just assume tents but are there particular types that are prevalent in different regions?

Good question, being lazy I assumed large groups to use tents in olrlanthi lands and some variation of 1st nations temporary shelters for Prax.

[Qizilbashwoman]

23 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Good question, being lazy I assumed large groups to use tents in olrlanthi lands and some variation of 1st nations temporary shelters for Prax.

Prax is likely to use large tents. They are permanently mobile.

When uh do Orlanthis travel in large groups? Other than for fighting. They are a settled people.

[Sir_Godspeed]

In Sartar, using the landscape for partial cover is probably wise. Determining the prevailing wind or downpour direction, and choosing to rest against a hillside, cliff, or copse of trees that shelters against it is probably pretty common. Sartar's weather is fickle, however, so this is hardly enough alone.

If there are trees, or even brush, nearby, you can always set up bivouacs pretty quickly. All you need are two standing poles, a cross-beam, and several branches going down the back side, sort of like half a roof. In all likelihood, if it's a large group traveling, such poles are part of the packed equipment, maybe carried by whatever pack animals are part of the baggage train. Depending on the kind of vegetation, it might be more or less effective. I'm mostly used to pine which are quite effective due to the way the branches are shaped (Norway spruce for example has branches with a feathered pattern, which means that when you layer them for roofing, they guide water away and down, instead of letting it pass through - although multiple layers are recommended). If there are tall grasses or reeds nearby, that might maybe also be used. I'd mention banana palm leaves as well, but, well, wrong climate.

Similarly, I'd imagine canvas might be used. Canvas (ie. hemp), if it is available to Sartarites, is relatively easy to make large amounts of, iirc (although not to modern standards, I assume), and to waterproof. They might be used for roofs, of course, but perhaps equally important as walls to keep wind away - which is nice to have if you need to start a fire for cooking, dry up after fording a river, etc. The same can probably said for linen.

Woolen textiles can also be made waterproof - either by shearing naturally high-lanolin-containing wools (lanolin is a kind of natural oil sheep produce to stay waterproof) and using that in weaving - or by applying additional lanolin later (by desaturating another, different, batch of wool). I've been told lamb's oil is especially rich in lanolin, but I don't know too much else about that. Such woolen textiles are probably used more as cloaks and as blankets than as tents, I think, due to being harder to mass-produce than canvas - but I could be wrong. I think in many cases travelers would indeed sleep under the stars, or improvised roofing (like the pine bivouac mentioned above) and rely on their blanket for most of their insulation and waterproofing.

Lastly, treated pelts might help out. Again, probably more as individual waterproofing (as blanketing or as "matresses", perhaps) than making up tents (unless you're the Praxians or someone else with access to huge amounts of pelts around). I did a quick googling, and apparently there is at least one attested Roman leather tent discovered, so it's not entirely fantastical.

Also, in some cases, if it's a marching army we're talking about, I assume shields might be used in some capacity. Big, round or square, mostly made of wooden boards covered with paint or leader - they're unlikely to suffer from being rained on (unlike bowstrings and cutting blades), and might be good if combined together or something.

[Sir_Godspeed]

After some googling, I realized that the word "gapahuk", which I translated in my head to "bivouac" (which really means any kind of simple rest-stop), is probably more accurately translated to English as "lean-to".

Something like this (just replace the tarp with waterproofed textile or with leafy/piney branches):


Or more elaborately, like this, which addionally has windbreaking wall on our left (this time, imagine them sleeping on top of sheepskin, for example):



Parts of Sartar is not going to have enough wooden materials to make this possible - in which case planning, improvising, etc. is probably key.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Bill the barbarian]

38 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

When uh do Orlanthis travel in large groups? Other than for fighting. They are a settled people.

The answer to your question is in your question. Military groups, and often they have t fend for themselves when in raiding sizes but in  major wars... and with the new paradigms entering orlanthi military science... 

 In fairness though there is a fair amount of travelling among smaller groups but this would be caravans. And tents or bivouacs or open sky or even trailers/carts would be used here. After all DP is a major and I mean major trade centre.

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

After some googling, I realized that the word "gapahuk", which I translated in my head to "bivouac" (which really means any kind of simple rest-stop), is probably more accurately translated to English as "lean-to".

For smaller groups this is the most logical way to go. and it does allow you acces to the sky on nice nights (and what a the sky dome, who would not want to watch e celestial dance in the non-screen-watching lozenge) as well as shelter from the wind. Minimal material and no consumables for the making of this either. Ideal for raiding but aries, well this is Sartar and alll.

20 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

In Sartar, using the landscape for partial cover is probably wise. Determining the prevailing wind or downpour direction, and choosing to rest against a hillside, cliff, or copse of trees that shelters against it is probably pretty common. Sartar's weather is fickle, however, so this is hardly enough alone.

Good call

 

21 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

22 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Also, in some cases, if it's a marching army we're talking about, I assume shields might be used in some capacity. Big, round or square, mostly made of wooden boards covered with paint or leader - they're unlikely to suffer from being rained on (unlike bowstrings and cutting blades), and might be good if combined together or something.

Nice!

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Dan Z said:

What sorts of shelter are used when travelling in large groups in [the] Lunar Empire?  

Inns.

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, metcalph said:

Inns

With beer! and beds! and elevensies... they do know that elevensies are don’t they?

[Dan Z]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Prax is likely to use large tents. They are permanently mobile.

My thoughts about Praxians is that they use a variety of temporary shelters ranging from big tents down to something like tipis and yurts possibly depending on the tribe.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

When uh do Orlanthis travel in large groups? Other than for fighting. They are a settled people.

Aside from large fighting groups presumably clans move about occasionally, people may go to religious, tribal, and national events (declaring someone the Prince of Sartar for example).  I would also guess that during Lunar occupation the may well have been large groups of exiles moving about and/or specifically to certain places.

I could see Sartarites using everything from a lean-to/tarps to large tents depending on the situation and again this might vary from tribe to tribe.

[Dan Z]

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Inns.

Ha!  I'm sure the innkeepers love it when the army comes to town or some religious sect passes by. 😉

[Bill the barbarian]

13 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They are a settled people.

This has been buzzing around  my mind, Yes the roads are basically empty these days, travel is not occurring and that is a sure sign the things is mighty unhealthy in the world. That is, the roads should be humming, Sartar is after all a nation constantly on the move. It’s very essence is in the the motion rune, it’s gods all hold change, storm and motion dear. Business is what built Sartar and the roads that Sartar built, built business. No, despite the current situation. historically and into the future I would say that for a settled nation there has been a lot of movement and will be a lot more going on.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Dan Z said:

My thoughts about Praxians is that they use a variety of temporary shelters ranging from big tents down to something like tipis and yurts possibly depending on the tribe.

 

Yes

[Joerg]

Traveling through inhabited lands probably means that the travelers enjoy some hospitality on the way. Usually by distant kin, as it is quite hard to go somewhere where there aren't any kin of your mother or aunt, your aunt's brother's wife, etc..

Then there are friendly temples. Especially if you are on some sort of pilgrimage.

The farther you are away from your clan, the more you will be relying on travel companions from closer to this region who may get you in as a "plus one".

 

In the wilderness the average traveler won't be carrying a tent, but will have something like a sleeping roll, with oiled hides for an outer rain-slowing layer that may double as a poncho if you are sitting guard in the rain. Such nights will be wet, clammy and miserable (unless you're a Helering).

 

Herders and hunters will use temporary shelters that they either produce from material on the pastures, or they will carry a tent on some pack beast. These temporary shelters may be quite sturdy and survive more than a single season, and won't be occupied all the time, so you might get lucky and find such a shelter that has free space. (If there are some herders there, they will likely welcome the opportunity to interact with some other humans than the usual faces or their beasts.)

Some of these shelters may have been started centuries ago. These usually will have something like an altar where you can make small offerings to local entities (spirits or deities), not necessarily inside the shelter. And some of these may be haunted in a way, or impose some debt or obligation with the local entity, if you need an excuse for generating a small side quest.

[Bill the barbarian]

 

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Traveling through inhabited lands probably means that the travelers enjoy some hospitality on the way. Usually by distant kin, as it is quite hard to go somewhere where there aren't any kin of your mother or aunt, your aunt's brother's wife, etc..

 

Nice stuff Joerg .Alas, ya missed by a country mile, lad. The question (as repeated below) was not what one used when travelling alone or in small groups but what one used when moving en masse through the countrysides of Sartar, Prax of the Lunar Empire. I know nothing of the Lunar Empire so I declined ro opine on the subject.

Any thoughts?

4 hours ago, Dan Z said:

What sorts of shelter are used when travelling in large groups in Sartar?  What about Prax and Lunar Empire? 

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

Nice stuff Joerg .Alas, ya missed by a country mile, lad. The question (as repeated below) was not what one used when travelling alone or in small groups but what one used when moving en masse through the countrysides of Sartar, Prax of the Lunar Empire. I know nothing of the Lunar Empire so I declined ro opine on the subject.

Large groups, not entire migratory clans or full warbands. The scenario I described was for a pilgrimage of several dozen participants.

Those shepherds' shelters would often be sufficient for more than a dozen individuals, at least if conditions on the high pastures resemble the conditions in the Pyrenees near Montaillou where a bunch of shepherds would be able to house a group of a dozen Perfecti with little discomfort, often for a week or so.

 

If you are talking about a traveling king with his companions and servants (the typical traveling court), there will be a train of pack beasts carrying shelters (e.g. hunting tents) if they are making a trip into the wilderness, and demanding (and receiving) hospitality wherever there are inhabited places.

A military or mercenary unit will have a train with servants carrying tents of some kind, cooking gear, armor polish, and food.

A raiding party will travel in a more spartan way, but still be accompanied by supporters (magicians, healers and porters).

Cattle raiders will travel more lightly, and in smaller parties.

[Dan Z]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Large groups, not entire migratory clans or full warbands. The scenario I described was for a pilgrimage of several dozen participants.

Those shepherds' shelters would often be sufficient for more than a dozen individuals, at least if conditions on the high pastures resemble the conditions in the Pyrenees near Montaillou where a bunch of shepherds would be able to house a group of a dozen Perfecti with little discomfort, often for a week or so.

 

If you are talking about a traveling king with his companions and servants (the typical traveling court), there will be a train of pack beasts carrying shelters (e.g. hunting tents) if they are making a trip into the wilderness, and demanding (and receiving) hospitality wherever there are inhabited places.

A military or mercenary unit will have a train with servants carrying tents of some kind, cooking gear, armor polish, and food.

A raiding party will travel in a more spartan way, but still be accompanied by supporters (magicians, healers and porters).

Cattle raiders will travel more lightly, and in smaller parties.

What about an exiled clan or a large group of folks travelling for religious reason?  I'm thinking 300, 500, 700 people here.  What would the default shelter be?  What if they needed to travel as far as Pavis or Balazar?

[Joerg]

Just now, Dan Z said:

What about an exiled clan or a large group of folks travelling for religious reason?  I'm thinking 300, 500, 700 people here.  What would the default shelter be?  What if they needed to travel as far as Pavis or Balazar?

A migratory group will be little different from a settlers trek across the Big Plains or across the Rockies (terrain depending on your setting). Not necessarily conestoga wagons, but the Orlanthi are a wheeled society as former chariot warriors.

The French comic Vae Victis! had nice imagery of the Helvetii migration, and documentaries about the gothic migration are pretty on spot historically, too.

[soltakss]

Nomad camps just pack up and move their whole village, packing tents and yurts on riding beasts and moving to the next set of pastures.

Non-nomadic groups might use tents, as they are the most useful temporary shelter. Groups with wagons might pack larger tents, such as marquees, or might just shelter in the wagons, like the covered wagons of the Wild West.

Hunter groups might make shelters from whatever they have available, rather than taking them with them, but they generally don't travel in large groups, even on the Great Hunt.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

A migratory group will be little different from a settlers trek across the Big Plains or across the Rockies (terrain depending on your setting). Not necessarily conestoga wagons, but the Orlanthi are a wheeled society as former chariot warriors.

 

That’s a bit nore like it, Joerg. I can usually expect answers that are on topic and deep from you. 

Cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Nomad camps just pack up and move their whole village, packing tents and yurts on riding beasts and moving to the next set of pastures.

 

As I was saying about our 1st nations folk here in canada, historically. I expect anything to be fast up and fast down, and incredibly apt for the conditions that they are being erected in.

Cheers

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

With beer! and beds! and elevensies... they do know that elevensies are don’t they?

No, I don't.

[Brootse]

Most soldiers would just wrap their cloaks around them, and maybe have a blanket too. I recommend Anabasis to all Glorantha fans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)

[Dan Z]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

A migratory group will be little different from a settlers trek across the Big Plains or across the Rockies (terrain depending on your setting). Not necessarily conestoga wagons, but the Orlanthi are a wheeled society as former chariot warriors.

The French comic Vae Victis! had nice imagery of the Helvetii migration, and documentaries about the gothic migration are pretty on spot historically, too.

That sounds like the sort of ideas I was looking for.  Thanks, I'll check out Vae Victus (if I can find it).

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Dan Z said:

That sounds like the sort of ideas I was looking for.  Thanks, I'll check out Vae Victus (if I can find it).

I didn't have time to look up the details before. The migration sequence I am looking for is likely in volume two or three. The series is by Rocca and Mitton. Google has a few scanned pages in the image search, but none of those I wanted to refer to.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I didn't have time to look up the details before. The migration sequence I am looking for is likely in volume two or three. The series is by Rocca and Mitton. Google has a few scanned pages in the image search, but none of those I wanted to refer to.

if you google Michif wagons you get some images of historical First Nations wagons used by the Michif, who are a special nation comprised of the descendants of coureurs de bois (trappers) and Algonkian-speaking indigenous peoples, primarily Ojibwe, who speak Trapper French, a Plains Cree dialect now extinct elsewhere, and Michif, a hybrid language that uses Trapper French nouns and Plains Cree grammar. (it's not a creole, it uses the entire grammar for both!).

they did not use the travois when hunting the bison yearly with other First Nations people, but rather wagons. this might be useful images for assembled and photographed transhumant wagons, as all the ones listed above are either from settlers or are from the Bronze-early Iron age and have been reassembled. They aren't photographed in use. Sample site: Red River Carts. Sites also talk about how people camped in (very) large groups for religious and hunting reasons and how First Nations and Michif peoples organised work. Giving young men sticks and calling them "camp order keepers" was crucial to keeping them out of trouble because they'd feel important and try to boss around people, when basically everyone knew this was just an attempt to keep the young men - the actual troublemakers - from making problems.

Also some of the sites use the official seal of the bison inventively.

The Michif term for the wagon was aen wagon or aen charet (IPA /æ̃ wagɔ̃/ or /ʋagɔ̃/, /æ̃ ʃaɾe/

Edited October 9, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman