Women in Glorantha

[JonL]

6 hours ago, JonL said:

This too is womanhood in Sartar.

Still pondering this. Quick initiate headcount check for mainly-women cults via Sartar-KoH:

Ernalda: 40,000

Esrola: 5000

Asrelia 1500, Maran Gor: 1500, Ty Kora Tek 1500, Vinga 1500

Redalda 1000

Babeester Gor 250, Kiero Fin 250

 

I'm not pointing these numbers out trying to stir up some kind of rivalry or competition here (ponders new  posts to the Pop Star Captain thread). What I'm getting at is that while Vinga may be the most common path for ladies who take up arms (with Maran's followers heavily clustered up among the mountains), Redalda's 1000 is a more prominent presence than we'd expect from the discussion in this thread so far. They're not even super clustered at Runegate, with only 100 there, per Sartar Companion.

Further,(ignoring recent retcons for the moment) the counts show just as many Redaldans as Elmali (1000 remaining after Monrogh's movment). Think about that. A clan's loyal thane, cavalry captain, etc. is as equally likely to be of either sex, and this is totally normal.

For comparison, look at a few other members of the One Thousand Club:

Humakt, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Urox, Yinkin.

Redaldans are just as common as any of those, and unlike specialist warrior cults like Humakt, Urox, or Babeester Gor they (and Elmali who did not follow Monrogh) are pro-social, marriage & community friendly rather than sacral outsiders.

Circling back to all the marriage role-modeling and elemental pairing stuff that went round above, the Foreigner Marriage may contain deeper secrets than it seems at first. The Redaldan path seems to reconcile more dichotomies than just the obvious one.

 

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, JonL said:

Let's toss some more attention Redalda's way. She and her followers manage to buck (so to speak) a lot of these dynamics. Feminine + Fire. Riding through hills & plains with the wind in their hair, kicking ass and upholding Truth, yet also being comfortable with matrimony and life centered around upholding a community. There is no contradiction between tending the hearth and defending it. In particular, I love how her & Elmal's partnership involves the two of them doing things together and supporting one another hand in hand in a way that is very different from Orlanth & Ernalda's dynamic.

This too is womanhood in Sartar.

(Must... resist... urge... to start... Elmal... vs... Yelmalio argument...) 

 

Redalda is a mask of Hippoi or Horse. 

HIPPOI

Hippoi was born pure-white and innocent in the eternal reaches of the pure Aether, whole and powerful and proud. She was also winged and nailed and toothed. As was common in the Godtime, Hippoi travelled much, and during the Gods War, the Great Horse suffered at the hands of violence.

The myths of the gradual destruction of the Great Horse are widespread. In Ralios, the Great Horse had her claws broken, in Fronela her fangs shattered, and in the far east a demon tore off her wings. In Ralios, there are tales of Galanin the Horsebreaker, whose several sons carried the skill far and wide across the world, so that many peoples learned to capture and tame the wild horse. 

Ernalda took pity upon Hippoi and cared for her. She let Hippoi run free across her broad lands and fed her from her bounty. In Saird, Hippoi is often closely associated with the Ernalda cult, while in Dragon Pass, the Feathered Horse Queen proved that Hippoi now serves Ernalda.  She provides the Earth Goddess with the special Rune spell of Speak with Horse.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, JonL said:

Still pondering this. Quick initiate headcount check for mainly-women cults via Sartar-KoH:

Ernalda: 40,000

Esrola: 5000

Asrelia 1500, Maran Gor: 1500, Ty Kora Tek 1500, Vinga 1500

Redalda 1000

Babeester Gor 250, Kiero Fin 250

 

I'm not pointing these numbers out trying to stir up some kind of rivalry or competition here (ponders new  posts to the Pop Star Captain thread). What I'm getting at is that while Vinga may be the most common path for ladies who take up arms (with Maran's followers heavily clustered up among the mountains), Redalda's 1000 is a more prominent presence than we'd expect from the discussion in this thread so far. They're not even super clustered at Runegate, with only 100 there, per Sartar Companion.

Further,(ignoring recent retcons for the moment) the counts show just as many Redaldans as Elmali (1000 remaining after Monrogh's movment). Think about that. A clan's loyal thane, cavalry captain, etc. is as equally likely to be of either sex, and this is totally normal.

For comparison, look at a few other members of the One Thousand Club:

Humakt, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Urox, Yinkin.

Redaldans are just as common as any of those, and unlike specialist warrior cults like Humakt, Urox, or Babeester Gor they (and Elmali who did not follow Monrogh) are pro-social, marriage & community friendly rather than sacral outsiders.

Circling back to all the marriage role-modeling and elemental pairing stuff that went round above, the Foreigner Marriage may contain deeper secrets than it seems at first. The Redaldan path seems to reconcile more dichotomies than just the obvious one.

 

Sadly those numbers are wrong - and predate the really careful numbers that I did for the Guide and the Cults Book. Here are the correct numbers, which I now have by tribe, by city, and even by town:

CULT NUMBERS IN SARTAR

Cult Worshipers 

Orlanth 39,625

Ernalda 39,000

Yelmalio 5,750

Seven Mothers 5,500

Humakt 4,000

Issaries 3,500

Storm Bull 2,800

Hykim (Telmor) 2,700

Daka Fal 2,500

Chalana Arroy 2,300

Lhankor Mhy 2,300

Eurmal 1,150

Babeester Gor 1,100

Maran Gor 1,100

Other Cults (Argan Argar, Asrelia, Eiritha, Engizi, Gustbran, Heler, Hyalor, Kolat, Minlister, Odalya, Quivin, Ty Kora Tek, Uleria, Valind, Yinkin, etc.) 7,100 total

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jeff

[JonL]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Sadly those numbers are wrong - and predate the really careful numbers that I did for the Guide and the Cults Book. Here are the correct numbers, which I now have by tribe, by city, and even by town:

I don't see where anything in the Guide contradicts what you previously laid out for the cult distributions, though obviously you know what you're writing in the forthcoming cults book.

While I respect your enthusiasm for the revised Glorantha you are currently in the midst of forging and wish your efforts nothing but success, please though, consider how the way you framed your evolving perspective there might feel to someone who as a newcomer only a few years ago paid $100 for the Sartar books in part on the strength of your having written at the time that they were on the short list of works that Moon Design would use as a foundation going forward. While it's fine for Chaosium's Gloranthas to vary, the new approach to the idea being different from the old doesn't require framing your earlier work as invalid any more than the 1942 full-orchestra arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue makes the 1924 version wrong. 

<deep breath, exhale>

That having been said, where does Redalda fit into this new picture? Am I correct in assuming that you are lumping her followers along with the Elmali holdouts into the enlarged Yelmalio total (up from 3k in the previous work), or do they sit within your Other bracket? While there are some horse connections, Redalda-as-such doesn't figure into Yelmalio lore at all that I've seen, and the Sun Domers' marital practices are of course a bit peculiar. What is the picture like for Redaldans this new model?

Edited October 15, 2021 by JonL

[Jeff]

Just now, JonL said:

I don't see where anything in the Guide contradicts what you previously laid out for the cult distributions, though obviously you know what you're writing in the forthcoming cults book.

While I respect your enthusiasm for the revised Glorantha you are currently in the midst of forging and wish your efforts nothing but success, please though, consider how the way you framed your evolving perspective there might feel to someone who as a newcomer only a few years ago paid $100 for the Sartar books in part on the strength of your having written at the time that they were on the short list of works that Moon Design would use as a foundation going forward. While it's fine for Chaosium's Glorantha to vary, the new approach to the idea being different from the old doesn't require framing your earlier work as invalid any more than the 1942 full-orchestra arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue makes the 1924 version wrong. 

<deep breath, exhale>

That having been said, where does Redalda fit into this new picture? Am I correct in assuming that you are lumping her followers along with the Elmali holdouts into the enlarged Yelmalio total (up from 3k in the previous work), or do they sit within your Other bracket? Redalda doesn't figure into Yelmalio lore at all that I've seen, and the Sun Domers' marital practices are of course a bit peculiar. What is the picture like for Redaldans this new model?

I wrote the Kingdom of Heroes book over a decade ago. Since then I have written the Guide to Glorantha (which entailed looking at how the entire setting fits together), recovered all of Greg's original notes and files, been able to truly understand how things fit together AND how they were intended to. And brought Glorantha and RuneQuest back to Chaosium which let us allowed many outstanding things be resolved and restored. And as it is RuneQuest, I am now operating with a system where these numbers actually really matter and interact with the rules. And finally, I have written the full Cults book where I had to define and work out over 100 cults and how they fit together,. In short, I'm happy saying that some of the peripheral details I put into the Kingdom of Heroes book were wrong and now I can present that information not as peripheral information but as core to the book.

Redalda is a minor cult in Sartar. She's a horse goddess, and might just be easier to think of as Hippoi. She's the woman riding Hippoi now. Her cult was much more important in Dawn Age Saird, but that is a long ways away from Third Age Sartar.

[JonL]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Redalda is a minor cult in Sartar. She's a horse goddess, and might just be easier to think of as Hippoi. She's the woman riding Hippoi now. Her cult was much more important in Dawn Age Saird, but that is a long ways away from Third Age Sartar.

Alas. While I can of course keep playing with the Glorantha where where Redalda has as many followers as Humakt or Issaries and the Elmal+Redalda complex casually has gender parity like it's no big deal, I wish more would have been written about it.

[Runeblogger]

If you still want to use Jeff's new numbers, you could say that in your Glorantha, Sartar has +3000 population, all of them worshipping Redalda. As for my Glorantha, Uralda worshipers (Eiritha) are as numerous as Chalana Arroy's. 🙂 The videogame is to blame.

[Jeff]

35 minutes ago, JonL said:

Alas. While I can of course keep playing with the Glorantha where where Redalda has as many followers as Humakt or Issaries and the Elmal+Redalda complex casually has gender parity like it's no big deal, I wish more would have been written about it.

She's the god of horses for the Sartarites, and not a lot more. The gendered line up of the major deities (the deities and NOT necessarily their worshipers) go a little like this:
Strongly male: Orlanth, Argan Argar, Barntar, Humakt, Lhankor Mhy, Odayla, Storm Bull, Valind, Yelmalio
Strongly female: Ernalda, Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Eiritha, Maran Gor, Ty Kora Tek, Vinga

Not particularly strongly gendered: Chalana Arroy, Daka Fal, Engizi, Eurmal, Heler, Issaries, Uleria

But of course this is riddled with exceptions. Frex, Orlanth is strongly masculine in art and story BUT has female aspect (Vinga). 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Jeff

[JonL]

4 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

If you still want to use Jeff's new numbers, you could say that in your Glorantha, Sartar has +3000 population, all of them worshipping Redalda. 

Sure. I can imagine taking that as a model for scale and re-adjust to HQG's take where a majority of Elmali followed Monrogh to Vantar but the rump of the Elmal+Redalda complex remained the niche Sun cult tradition in places without a Sun Dome nearby (as the Yelmalions, quite pointedly, left). If the  Yelmalio:Elmal:Redalda propertions were still roughly 3:1:1, and that 5750 figure includes traditional Elmali, a throwback balance would be Y3450:E1150:R1150. A better approach though given how the other numbers have grown would be to treat 5750 as all Monroghist Yelmalions. In that case, the 3:1:1 proportion puts Elmal and Redalda each at 3833. That's once again pretty close to Humakt & Issaries. None of these numbers are precise of course, and it's all ultimately arbitrary, but that's roughly how many Redaldans would be around if you wanted the HQ-style Heortling Sun cults to fit nicely within a RQG-like balance in your Glorantha.

OK, since we ended up there, let's talk Elmal v. Yelmalio in the context of gender roles and women's place in cults and society.  

Ironically, the E:R gender parity in SKOH is probably something that was indirectly  brought about by Monrogh's schism. Those who left probably skewed hard towards men, and bachelors especially, given the Sun Domers' less equitable posture towards women (cover those salacious arms, ladies) and peculiar marriage rules. Those who remained would be those who were not discontent to begin with and with reasons not to leave: deeper ties to the communities they defended, healthy extended family relationships, respect for their native traditions, and general contentment with Loyal Thaning it up - rather than being seduced by the idea of strutting around in gold armor, aping Pelorian patriarchy, oppressing serfs, and stabbing people for money.

In the wake of the surprise exodus of Monrogh's (dudebro-heavy) apostates, the remaining Elmali would suddenly find themselves less represented within the rump cult relative to the Redaldans and simultaneously more reliant upon them for mutual support in the face of their new rivals. If any of the remaining Elmali had not already regarded Redaldans as equal partners, I imagine they were cured of that blindness in short order.

The place of women in Sun Domer society is odd (and maybe some new book is about to come out and tell us that Vantar is way different from Mo Bustra in this respect, but the previous descriptions of the Vantar crew have been indistinguishable from their better known coreligionists). They admit women, but they're only equal-ish. They encourage them to be in supporting or subservient roles, dress modestly, etc. but as Vega illustrates they can climb to the top of the  pile if they can beat the crap out of every chauvinist that stands in their way. It's unclear to me what her marriage options would be within cult law. Could she wed a Nandani and maintain her standing? I suspect Belvani would try to use that against her.  

You can see where, to me at least, a Glorantha with this sort of conflict and contrast dynamically in play is a more interesting Glorantha than one where Elmal is a passe footnote and Redalda is just Hippoi in a dress. I especially appreciate  Redalda being there as a warrior option for women that doesn't involve the weird gender disconnect from normalcy that swirls around Vinga at times (to say nothing of Babeester Gor) and without any contention that she's really "just" Elmal in female form. It's easy for me to say that of course, as I don't have to write 100 cults.  

 

4 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

 As for my Glorantha, Uralda worshipers (Eiritha) are as numerous as Chalana Arroy's. 🙂 The videogame is to blame.

Uralda's myth in KoDP is great, and the costumes in the art are too much fun.

Edited October 15, 2021 by JonL

[radmonger]

20 hours ago, Jeff said:

. And as it is RuneQuest, I am now operating with a system where these numbers actually really matter and interact with the rules. And finally, I have written the full Cults book where I had to define and work out over 100 cults and how they fit together,. 

I think the way I would interpret things is that if you wrote out RQ character sheets for everyone in Sartar, not many would have 'initiate of Redalda' written on them. Those few who did would be full-time horse breeders, foreign mercenaries (from Saird?),  or specialists employed by a cavalry company. 

But there would be rather a lot of 16-25 year old normally-initiated Ernaldan's who's best skill was _ride_ and first point of Rune magic was _Speak to Horse_, taken using the RQ associated cults rules. Unlike Vingans, their default role in mass combat would be as mobile auxiliaries, scouts, and messengers. Avoiding one of the traditional problems with cavalry scouts, they would feel not the slightest temptation to engage in a fair fight when running away was an option.

If you talked to them, they would talk a lot about horses, and they would know all the stories of Redalda rider. But they don't have any of the game mechanical consequences associated with being full initiates of any hypothetical long-form RQ:G Redalda cult writeup. There are rune spell's they can't cast, training they can't get, and so on.

If that's so, an open question is whether there is still, in 1625, a minor temple to Redalda at RuneGate, as there was at the time of Sartar KoH. Was it destroyed in the fighting? If not, what is it? A relic of the time when the now-Yelmalians mostly fought from horseback? A training school for scouts and couriers? Is that going to be magically and economically sustainable for newly-independent Sartar? Or was it only ever viable due to Lunar subsidies during the occupation?

 

 

[JonL]

Another interesting take on Redalda is what the Carpenters came up with for Valley of Plenty. It's more distinct from the Elmal cult rather than the paired cult we got in SKOH, and focusses more on the animal-husbandry (so to speak) angle (Fire+Horse rather then Fire+Truth). If someone wants to go with a horse breeding & riding focussed cult with special selective breeding ritess, magical braids, and secret gaits (and can still use Fire to blaze up weapons or warm hearts as the situation demands) it's great.

Also of note: Even with the distinct Elmal & Redalda orders, both in VoP are explicitly co-ed, as is the cult of their daughter Andred - a sort of justice hunter.

[simonh]

I suspect members of minor cults aren’t evenly scattered throughout the Sartarites population too. If there are only a few hundred native direct Redalda worshipers in all of Sartar, not enough to show up in the stats, they probably all live in the same community. Why not Runegate?

[Jeff]

24 minutes ago, simonh said:

I suspect members of minor cults aren’t evenly scattered throughout the Sartarites population too. If there are only a few hundred native direct Redalda worshipers in all of Sartar, not enough to show up in the stats, they probably all live in the same community. Why not Runegate?

Runegate has a shrine to Hyalor and minor temples to Orlanth Thunderous, Yelmalio, and Humakt. Redalda (Hippoi) is likely an associated cult at the major temple to Ernalda there. 

[HeartQuintessence]

On 10/15/2021 at 1:19 AM, JonL said:

Let's toss some more attention Redalda's way. She and her followers manage to buck (so to speak) a lot of these dynamics. Feminine + Fire. Riding through hills & plains with the wind in their hair, kicking ass and upholding Truth, yet also being comfortable with matrimony and life centered around upholding a community. There is no contradiction between tending the hearth and defending it. In particular, I love how her & Elmal's partnership involves the two of them doing things together and supporting one another hand in hand in a way that is very different from Orlanth & Ernalda's dynamic.

This too is womanhood in Sartar.

(Must... resist... urge... to start... Elmal... vs... Yelmalio argument...) 

 

I am going to admit that I totally wrote up a blurb that's called the "Bridle Rite" (yes the pun(?) is intentional)- For The my little clan's not Golden Eyes, are a gift from Redala herself- which required some people to legitimately get turned into horses (Loki-style- I never thought I'd say that).

But it helps to re-inforce that horse- and rider relation, that the pair needs the each half to be 'whole'. (honestly I also just straight up wanted to play with the 'horse-girl trope' because someone pointed out that "horse-girls" tend to be stand ins for budding female sexuality and the horses are standins for boys.. and then that just open up a whole can of mental ideas.

 

But Redala and Elmal is a good partnership non-the less.

Anyway this is turning into a great discussion.

[JonL]

4 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

But it helps to re-inforce that horse- and rider relation, that the pair needs the each half to be 'whole'. (honestly I also just straight up wanted to play with the 'horse-girl trope'...

I am all about making room for Nerd-troping those kind of story elements into adventure gaming. Part of why "Bumblebee" is the best Transformers movie is that it's basically "National Velvet," but with giant robot battles to save the world, which was a brilliant.

4 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

...because someone pointed out that "horse-girls" tend to be stand ins for budding female sexuality and the horses are standins for boys.. and then that just open up a whole can of mental ideas.

Part of what's neat about Redalda's courtship story is that it both turns the typical dynamic inside out AND kicks the feminine agency and assertive sexuality up several notches. Elmal is the outsider too caught up in healing the wounded horse everyone (but Redalda) laughed at to accept the advances of the Boss's daughter, and the Boss is surprisingly cool about his daughter proposing to a foreigner. She unlocks her hidden inner power and shows Elmal that he doesn't have to choose between her and horses after all. "On their wedding night, she and Elmal rode wildly off together." Oh, myyyy.

 

 

[JonL]

Further trope-inversions: In a society full of stormy-eyed bad-boy bad-asses, it's the kind, nurturing, and reliable bad-ass who catches Redalda's eye. Instead of a third-act make-over revealing her "hidden" beauty, she leads with surface beauty and it doesn't work. It's <ahem> unbridling the primal fire within that turns Elmal's head.

(Meanwhile, Yncelmalio is off randomly murdering three of Orlanth's friends over losing Ernalda.)

Edited October 19, 2021 by JonL

[HeartQuintessence]

This does know make me realize my clans vale may have true decesndants of Hippoi living in some Pegasus,  some unicorns, some regular horses,  some sea horses (or at least fish 'tailed')..

Oh now this is turning into MLP (My Little Pony).

 

But this does ultimate make Redala into a more interesting goddesses.

 

Its something that women and feminism in Glorantha aren't given enough credit for diversity of divinity-I blame the Godlearners.

 

But so many good back to 'root-Ernalda, or Esrola, or Aesralia, and dont/can't be too distinctive on their own and I think that's something we as a community can and should emphasize.

 

The little girls who play around as Esrola, as Vinga, as Redala in their childish games, the ones who play as Nevala, or a sky child, or battle their brothers and male cousins.

 

That is something that I wanted to bring up. In this thread: community and what women do, and how they do it.

[JonL]

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

This does know make me realize my clans vale may have true decesndants of Hippoi living in some Pegasus,  some unicorns, some regular horses,  some sea horses (or at least fish 'tailed')..

Oh now this is turning into MLP (My Little Pony).

That's funny, my current GM just last night said, "You've gone Full-Brony with this character, havent you?"

Yes, yes I have.

 

[JonL]

2 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Its something that women and feminism in Glorantha aren't given enough credit for diversity of divinity-I blame the Godlearners.

 

But so many good back to 'root-Ernalda, or Esrola, or Aesralia, and dont/can't be too distinctive on their own and I think that's something we as a community can and should emphasize.

That's definitely a thing. A point I try to make in such matters is that even though one can observe, discover, prove, etc. that a 4 and a 1 are both faces of the same die, that doesn't mean that 4=1, that 1 is a mask of 4, or any of those things we hear at times. 4 and 1 can be substantially different and distinct numbers even as they have some things in common as part of a greater whole.

For all the analysis of similarities the God Learners brought to bear, the Goddess Swap still failed.

[HeartQuintessence]

I thought I'd bring up this gem that the great creator of Six Seasons in Sartar brought up most recently : as is it pertinent to our discussion: https://andrewloganmontgomery.blogspot.com/2021/10/sex-gender-and-orlanthi-running-riddle.html

 

If biological sex (female/male)  by Gloranthan standards something seperatre from gender (like Ernalda, like Orlanth, like Heler, like Nadan, like Vinga, like none), which is very different from modern thinking and that's a bit of hurdle to cross perhaps. That is part of it.

 

When I played in a Six Seasons campaign briefly, I ended up being the only female player, and the only female character ( who ultimately turned to be 'like Ernalda' to th point that post initiation she was /green/ and her twin sister ended up being more like Orlanth and being /blue/ ., but now contextualizing it did give me pause.

 

It was done partly because I got be a very very 'sassy' ernalda (like telling Yelm, to sit down and be quite, this my kitchen and I will food, to whom I want... can't tell me nothing, sun-lord! Servant I may, but a Queen I am. ), I also tried to step out of line a bit  while "She sleeps she is not dead" is central to being like ernalda, a girl shouldn't have to be passive ( and no gloranthan woman is just waiting for stuff to happen to them- that's boring).

 

Being like one of the deities, in shape, and mimicing their actions is fine for a ritual purpose, but I started to think about how characters should and would react to the world around them.

My clan (Glimmer Hearth/GlimmerRock, the name needs more work) for instance- its proto clanness in 1610 is all women ( maybe a few boys and a few men), so you had a lot of women who were so inclined to do  formerly male designated jobs, and  without many adult men,  the rituals for boys couldn't really be put off, as the men had to construict new rituals ( this was a collection of people thrown together).

The girl-rituals in my clan always start with the words "Who Calls to you?"- always even boys start with those words, and unlike the very gendered rituals, the clan starts their ritual a place between (between a field and forest, between the mountains and the sea (yes my clans tula is weird and probably not in dragon pass if its by the sea- I guess).

The reason I've come up with is that the clan, acknowledges that a person's shape & gender may make themselves known in other ways. The clan sets forth object representing some of the major divinities ( and sometimes lesser ones will make sure their presencent known).  Its more or less about helping the person conciously step foreward as an 'adult'.  Though sometimes a person doesn't know- and they can answer that don't that's fine. if anything that is just what the tribe is about varience and outsiders.

 

I think the Women's ritual is going to have to be more elaborate when I get around to writing it. Looking at the Well of Dailath: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/ernaldan-initiation-rites/

 

Greg made it clear that woman hood has few options, that undergoing female initation is being initiated into the Ernaldan religion and lasts for weeks it seems like.
So this is something I wanna try and write a initation on ( that is different)

(Ok early morning thoughts over)

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:48 PM, HeartQuintessence said:

Hmm maybe that is the Quest, the girls are experiencing, and building off of, build a tribe  when they return as a dult women to the waking world. And that's mission for the adventure portion.

 

Yes, backward planning.

Because there are almost infinitely many possible women's initiations and myths.  So design the one(s) you want to reach the adventures you want to GM.

But don't make the women's initiation the same as the men's.  That would be boring.  You have decided passivity is not the essence of femininity.  I don't argue with you, as I am married to a  non passive woman and was borne by one.    

Now decide what is. 

 

[HeartQuintessence]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Yes, backward planning.

Because there are almost infinitely many possible women's initiations and myths.  So design the one(s) you want to reach the adventures you want to GM.

But don't make the women's initiation the same as the men's.  That would be boring.  You have decided passivity is not the essence of femininity.  I don't argue with you, as I am married to a  non passive woman and was borne by one.    

Now decide what is. 

 

Thanks for that vote of confidence.

Though this does spark my interest:https://andrewloganmontgomery.blogspot.com/2021/10/sex-gender-and-orlanthi-running-riddle.html

Edited October 22, 2021 by HeartQuintessence

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

...  You have decided passivity is not the essence of femininity

...    

Now decide what is. 

I'm a big, big fan of the notion that there's a range of individual differences.

Is  there even one thing that's "the essence" for all women?

[Sir_Godspeed]

As long as concepts of masculinity and femininity exist, there are going to be archetypical/stereotypical qualities associated with them, but I think we should steer clear of prescribing some kind of essentialism. Better to provide different examples of how genders are performed that dip into one or more of the aforementioned qualities while also not fitting perfectly, you know, like human beings do. 

[simonh]

Rather than active/passive maybe another way to look at the traditional masculine and feminine roles in Orlanthi society is external facing and internal facing. Men largely take responsibility for activities outside the stead and dealings with strangers, including war; women take responsibility for internal affairs and organisation, and relations with friendly communities. Obviously there's a lot of crossover.

I've been reading up a fair bit on Celtic mythology recently and it's interesting how many goddesses there are of rulership, war, hunting, etc. They're terrifying, while the male deities seem kind of boring and passive in comparison. Maybe there's a bit of a Germanic/Celtic split here.

Edited October 23, 2021 by simonh