Women in Glorantha

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

Filial Piety is a little bit harder to work with, I feel, in that doing your familial duty as an Ernaldan tends to mean not going on adventures

While it certainly entails doing your familial duty, that can be any number of things.  It may be ensuring you've made a good match in another clan.  It may be ensuring that your family receives the blessings of Ernalda.  It may be making bargains against skilled merchants to get the right reward for your family's goods.  It may be undertaking quests to keep the family or clan from falling apart.  Or anything else that the family deems important.  I don't think it requires staying at home with kin and elders - but ensuring that they are well cared for and receive the honor that is their due.

2 hours ago, Leingod said:

Harmony is kind of hard for me to define, personally. I assume, given this is a list of personal virtues a devout follower of Ernalda will try to display and emulate, that this refers to inner/personal harmony, which is... difficult to nail down.

Harmony can be internal or external. It may mean investigating and resolving why two bloodlines and feuding - making the Peaceweaving.  It may mean determining why disease has entered the house or the community - finding out why Disorder has arisen.  It may mean making deals with a hostile clan, or managing your household successfully, or getting resolving quarrels between adventurers as to how to share the spoils.

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Leingod said:

Harmony is kind of hard for me to define, personally. I assume, given this is a list of personal virtues a devout follower of Ernalda will try to display and emulate, that this refers to inner/personal harmony, which is... difficult to nail down. Is that just displaying harmony by being patient and such? Is it keeping calm in dangerous or high-stakes situations and making decisions dispassionately? In either case, how does one put this virtue in conflict with others or give it a downside, or even just have someone display it in a way that's actually interesting or impressive? I'll leave this for other people to define if they'd like to.

AFAICT, "Harmony" is related to how Ernalda is called the "Binder and Weaver" -- her affinity to the Harmony Rune has to do with binding communities together and weaving relationships. So I think it's the fact that Ernalda initiates would be involved in, say, clan politics, finding compromises to appease the arguments, especially when these arguments involve the fiery emotions of Orlanthi men. It might also have to do with arranging relationships (marriages, business, whatever), preserving deteriorating ones (family feuds, diseases, etc.), and even protecting existing ones (blessing warriors before they go defend the tula from enemy raids). So apart from that last example, it comes into play whenever a danger to the community is resolved in a productive, non violent way, which means the GM should often allow for non-violent resolutions for instance.

[John Biles]

I wrote two different versions of the same myth, one being how Orlanth approaches the heroquest in quest (for building an alliance with the Ducks) and the second version is the Ernalda version:

The Orlanth Version - How Orlanth And the Ducks Defeated Delicti and Rescued Ernalda:

    Dark Season is not ideal for travel, not then and not now.  But Orlanth’s wife had gone to see the Ducks to get certain rare herbs and to bring them grubs which Eurmal had found, which Ducks loved.  So Orlanth was busy getting drunk and singing with his Thunder Brothers, when Elmal rode into the hall and informed him that Ernalda needed to be rescued.

    Again.

    Unfortunately, the Thunder Brothers were too drunk to fight and Elmal needed to guard the stead in Orlanth’s absence, so he flew out to find his wife.  

    Dropal, the bad wind, tried to convince Orlanth to seduce his wife, but Orlanth slapped him aside, determined to find her despite the howling snow and freezing rain.

    One of Valind’s sons attacked him, forcing him down to the ground, where he crashed.  When he awoke, a group of Ducks had nursed him back to good health, but it meant that now he was greatly delayed!  But when he tried to fly, the snowstorm forced him down.

    The Ducks, however, offered use of one of the boats, propelled by mysterious Duck magics, which needed no wind to sail.  He agreed and a crew of Ducks joined him on the journey.

    They were attacked by the Beast-of-Many-Tentacles but triumphed in a fearsome battle.

    They were caught in the Swift Rapids, but one of the Ducks knew a Secret Route by which they carried the boat around it.

    They got lost in the Maze of Stagnant Streams, but the Ducks rowed their way to safety.

    Finally, they caught up with the Howling Dead, who had themselves gotten caught in the Maze and Orlanth smote them, rescuing Ernalda and sailing back with his new allies.

 

The Ernalda Version - How Ernalda Built An Alliance With the Ducks Against the Dead:

    One day, Ernalda was directing her maidens when Issaries entered and told her about how he had seen Ducks fighting the Undead in the Upland Marsh.  He was impressed by their bravery and cunning and by the rare herbs they had traded him for bars of bronze.  

    Ernalda had heard this before, but she’d also heard the Dead were starting to raid the outlying farms again, and Humakt, for all his boasting, wasn’t dealing with it enough.  They needed allies.  

    But she’d also heard one of the Thunder Brothers insulting the Ducks and Orlanth laughing at it.  He would need to *learn* their value as allies.

    So she went with Issaries to go trade for Herbs; they made the trade and she talked to the Ducks and dropped some hints about her husband’s might and some gifts.  Then, as she’d expected on the way home, one of Delicti’s evil vampire wives, jealous of her beauty, sent the Howling Dead to kidnap her and Issaries, but she sent Rigsdal the Night Watchman a message and he passed it to Elmal.

    Fortunately, they were not the brightest of monsters and she and Issaries tricked them into getting lost in the Maze of Stagnant Streams, until Orlanth and his new Duck allies showed up and slaughtered the monsters and took her home.

    So she threw a grand feast to celebrate the alliance, and all was well.

    For a few days, anyway.

 

So here's an Ernaldan myth where she has to go out and leverage her skills in an active way.

I would expect a lot of Ernaldan myths should involve her actively leveraging her wits to negotiate and reconcile conflicting interests, possibly by manipulating them into it, sometimes.

 

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Leingod said:

...

Prudence is where Ernalda's signature indirect approach and understated cunning come in. This is where Ernaldans are expected to be manipulative and calculating, choosing protectors and husbands to do the dirty work and making them think it was their idea, or just outwitting opposition rather than trying to face it head-on...

I think this is also stuff like planning & preparing for the future... maybe even (to an outsiders' POV) overplanning or overpreparing.  You don't just lay in supplies for winter, you lay in supplies for a long, hard winter, EVERY winter.

 

3 hours ago, Leingod said:

...

Harmony is kind of hard for me to define, personally. I assume, given this is a list of personal virtues a devout follower of Ernalda will try to display and emulate, that this refers to inner/personal harmony ...

I think it's very-outward harmony, too.  Like, "gossip" is one thing -- social news, catching up on the goings-on 'round the Stead or town, etc.  Spreading harmful rumors -- even if based on a kernel of truth -- is something very very different, and NOT "Harmony."  If a hard truth needs to be spoken, it needs to be spoken openly, and achieve a general consensus, binding the community closer (as opposed to the kind of gossip that factionalizes, and might even lead eventually to Kinstrife and Murder, etc -- these are Disorder, the opposite of Harmony).

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

4 hours ago, Leingod said:

Harmony is kind of hard for me to define, personally. I assume, given this is a list of personal virtues a devout follower of Ernalda will try to display and emulate, that this refers to inner/personal harmony, which is... difficult to nail down.

 

If anyone here has worked in an intense, but close-knit group, look out for that person who seemingly managed to make interpersonal drama dissipate, who knows what people to put together, which people to keep more apart, knows which topics to bring up, which topics to avoid, knows how to make everyone feel like a part of the team effort, knows how to emphasise the work each person does and validates it, and in general acts as the grease in the gears without which the group would lose cohesion and possibly break out into conflict. That's the Ernaldan. That's what Ernalda's Harmony is in the most prosaic sense, imho. And that's probably what makes it hard to spell out, because when it works, it's like it's not there at all, like a good supporting bass line to a rock band. 

(Yes, I just called Ernalda a bass player, though she's probably the drummer too. Or maybe that'd be Esrola.).

Edited May 25, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

... (Yes, I just called Ernalda a bass player, though she's probably the drummer too. Or maybe that'd be Esrola.).

Pretty sure Ernalda gets her drummer via connections her Darkness Husband has...

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Pretty sure Ernalda gets her drummer via connections her Darkness Husband has...

I appreciate the elemental themes that instruments in Glorantha have, but the purpose of the drums in a music band is to dictate rhythm, and little dictates life's rhythm as much as the agricultural cycle, hence my choice of Esrola. 

Also I was dicking around.

[Bohemond]

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Resurrecting this thread due to my re-reading of HeroQuest Glorantha, in which there's a brief mention in the write-up of the Ernalda cult of her own specific virtues (as it had been brought up before in this thread that Orlanth has his six virtues, which are oft-recounted, but most sources on Ernalda don't give her any equivalent that might help roleplay as one of her followers). It lists four: Harmony, Filial Piety, Prudence, and Compassion. So she does have some key virtues you can use to enrich roleplay by giving heroines (or nandan heroes) the chance to display them or to put them in conflict, it's just that they seem to be a bit harder to find. As for what I think those might look like:

Thank you. The issues in this thread are one of my top interests in Glorantha these days, so I'm glad to see this get bumped back to the front of the line. And I had missed this detail. 

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Compassion is a very easy one, both to give a character chances to display and to put in conflict with other values and virtues. In a lot of ways there's some overlap with how you'd portray a myth or plot thread about Compassion and how you'd do the same with Chalanna Arroy, except that Ernalda can make as well as mend. This would also be your best bet for stories in the vein of Orlanth making friends out of enemies, where rather than beating an enemy Ernalda saves them in some way, or where she shows mercy or compassion to someone earlier who comes to her aid later Androcles' Lion style (and in fact that comparison brings me to mind of the Strength card in tarot, which traditionally depicts a woman who has tamed or subdued a lion).

I think another facet of Compassion for Ernalda is Generosity--she gives freely of her bounty because nurtures her children. Hospitality would also come in here--compassion for travelers and strangers. As mistress of the stead, these would be extremely important virtues. 

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Prudence is where Ernalda's signature indirect approach and understated cunning come in. This is where Ernaldans are expected to be manipulative and calculating, choosing protectors and husbands to do the dirty work and making them think it was their idea, or just outwitting opposition rather than trying to face it head-on. It would be easy to make this conflict with Compassion, where there's a temptation to sacrifice someone or something else, either for the greater good or just personal gain. There's also the issue that sometimes the fastest and easiest route to your destination is, in fact, the straight line, but sometimes looking for the "prudent" solution all the time blinds you to that simple fact. This one is interesting to me, in that it's probably a fairly common trap for an Ernaldan who's very clever can fall into in the same way that an Orlanthi who's very brave might, where too much of one strength becomes a weakness, and perfectly reversed at that: Many young, brave Orlanthi often need to learn that violence is not always the best option and not every problem is a nail he can hammer down, while many a young and clever Ernaldan needs to learn that sometimes she needs to stop looking for "another way" and just hammer in the damn nails already.

I think your analysis of this is spot-on, especially that point about it creating a blind spot. Now I'm trying to think of a myth where Ernalda learns that sometimes violence is the correct option. The point I made months ago (right at the top of the thread) about Ernalda not getting a chance to learn and grow ties in very nicely here. Among other things, I think that one of Ernalda's lessons during her time at the court of the Bright Emperor is that sometimes compassion and harmony can't get you out a bad situation. Sometimes you need Orlanth to kill the Emperor. If a broken leg sets badly, sometimes you have to break it again to allow Harmony to do its work. 

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Filial Piety is a little bit harder to work with, I feel, in that doing your familial duty as an Ernaldan tends to mean not going on adventures, staying at home and helping your community like everyone else. So there's the obvious potential to make this virtue conflict with other virtues and duties that require you to leave your parents and elders behind, but Chinese myth and Confucian literature is replete with examples of how a hero can triumph or make grand sacrifices for their parents and elders.


 

I think Filial Piety may also be the place where supporting women and avenging the wrongs done to them comes in. Babeester Gor is Ernalda's Filial Piety made manifest and active when the worst case situation occurs. 

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

Harmony is kind of hard for me to define, personally. I assume, given this is a list of personal virtues a devout follower of Ernalda will try to display and emulate, that this refers to inner/personal harmony, which is... difficult to nail down. Is that just displaying harmony by being patient and such? Is it keeping calm in dangerous or high-stakes situations and making decisions dispassionately? In either case, how does one put this virtue in conflict with others or give it a downside, or even just have someone display it in a way that's actually interesting or impressive? I'll leave this for other people to define if they'd like to.

I feel like the source misses the point here. Harmony is one of Ernalda's runes, so saying that Harmony is one of her virtues kinda feels like cheating. It's like saying that one of Orlanth's virtues is Mastery. Well, yes, but what does that mean? I think rather than Harmony, the appropriate virtue is Community--Ernalda is the goddess who binds communities together--families and clans. In a sense, she's the wyter of the family, the thing that makes a family a unit rather than just a collection of individuals. She is also the wyter of the marriage--the thing that binds a husband and wife together (or an Earth rune soul with an Air, Fire, Water, or Darkness rune soul). This is why adultery is so offensive to Ernalda--it's a direct slap in the face to the 'third member' of the marriage. 

[Shawn Carpenter]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

I think rather than Harmony, the appropriate virtue is Community

I think you're right on the money. 

If Ernalda was presented as a goddess whose compassion is mixed with a healthy dose of pragmatism whose main goal is the continuance of community, I think she'd be a lot more popular with players.

I've always been of the mindset that an Ernaldan rune lord would be much more intimidating than an Orlanthi rune lord. She's much more politically astute, has the force of community behind her, and has extremely powerful rune affinities. 

[Patrick]

17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I appreciate the elemental themes that instruments in Glorantha have, but the purpose of the drums in a music band is to dictate rhythm, and little dictates life's rhythm as much as the agricultural cycle, hence my choice of Esrola. 

Also I was dicking around.

Pretty relevant to keep drums as Darkness, though.

Dark season is the beat of the year.

As mentioned above, that’s the reason/season why you need Prudence and planning.

Ernalda (or Esrola) doesn’t play the drums, but creates a wave around them.

A silence, that is part of the tune.

 

« She is not dead, she is sleeping... »

[Patrick]

This is really a very interesting thread, and I would like to thank you all for the good ideas.

We see a problem, and we try to fix it.

Aren’t we already on Ernalda’s path, by doing so? and indeed learning, stumbling, trying to find a way - another way...

Please allow me, however, to question the problem itself - as expressed earlier, that teaching wouldn’t make for good stories, or good gaming...

 

Yes, certainly, there is room for learning myths of Ernalda.

From her youth, playing in Asrelia’s Cave, and choosing or discovering who she truly is.

Ernalda combined Earth (of which she became the source) with Harmony and Life.

This is something that defines her - sets her apart from Maran, but also springs the qualities she will then constantly embody.

Hence the need for youth myths - the ones that will educate and shape (most of) the young girls in Orlanthi community.

As much as she learnt these Runes, and ways, she teaches them.

« The perfect Sages of Antiquity were so fine, so subtle, so deep and so universal that they couldn’t be known.

Unable to know them, we strive at representing them:

they were prudent like someone who passes a ford in winter;

hesitant, like one who fears their neighbours;

reserved as a guest;

mobile, like ice about to melt; 

concentrated like the block of raw wood;

extended as the valley;

confused as muddy water.

Who knows how, through rest, to progressively pass from troubled to clear, and through movement, from calm to active?

Whoever preserves in oneself such an experience, doesn’t desire to be full.

Not being full, it can withstand use, and renew. »

(somewhat clumsy attempt at translating Tao Tö King XV, an Iron-age text - how Ernaldan is that, though?)
 

Now, her later adventures have to do with communities (she’s a Queen, after all), finding and binding new elements in her communities:

- tools and resources (the dances, the loom...)

- people/gods to recruit and ally

Here, I find interesting that to help us express these stories « actively », we could revert the « active » myths of the Orlanthi warrior, into « passive » ones.

And I just thought about the question of Gods as Tools - which may be thought of as manipulation, but is also practised in all Orlanthi myths.

In the arming of Orlanth, his Sword can be called Humakt. And this, in turns, gives room for a Humakti HeroQuester to join the quest, even though it’s all about « Orlanth alone fighting in the wild ». Because Humakt IS a Sword, Mahome IS a fire, etc.

So we could certainly think of Orlanth as an « active » deity who skilfully swirls his weapon at the enemy, or equally as a « passive » deity who doesn’t act but changes others. He teaches Humakt how to kill Yelm. He’s the god of Change, isn’t he?

And we could certainly see Ernalda’s wits not as manipulative (in a social sense), but as crafts and skills. She trains Orlanth to fight Yelm, or she moves Orlanth to do that (like the warrior moves his weapon).

In both cases, we probably lose some of her spirituality.

Because she is indeed « universal » and « extended as the valley ».

She is not manipulating Gods against their best interest.

She tries to nudge them out of the dramatic endings of the Gods’ War...

In fact, to emphasize the dramatic value of this course of action, let’s think this in terms of « gamification »; not for us to play, but for us to teach through games, as Ernalda does.

Doesn’t she, by playing the game of seduction, make it a desireable outcome to do what must be done?

She « gamifies » quests, so that her champions will do what’s right.

 

Here, also, it may serve us to look for failure myths, to contrast them.

And we can find one in the Iliad: Cassandra is Kev, failing to show clearly the future to mortals.

Where Kev succeeds her quest, the community will act appropriately; where she fails, it won’t.

Is Kev manipulating them? No, she tells the truth, and only the truth.

But the story of Cassandra tells us that telling the Truth is not enough.

That there is a Quest to make it heard.

Some people call it: teaching...

Edited May 25, 2020 by Patrick

[Patrick]

Also, it occurs to me that Ernalda is not the Mountain Goddess.

She is the Earth, but she isn’t Kero Fin. Not Stormwalm mountain. Let alone Vestkarthan.

 

She is the earth in the valley, that welcomes the river, and gently guides it through canals into the fields...

She cares for peace, not (visible) greatness.

And yet again, to quote on the Tao Tö King:

 « Because she rivals with no-one, no-one can rival with her... »

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Patrick said:

Pretty relevant to keep drums as Darkness, though.

Dark season is the beat of the year.

As mentioned above, that’s the reason/season why you need Prudence and planning.

Ernalda (or Esrola) doesn’t play the drums, but creates a wave around them.

A silence, that is part of the tune.

 

« She is not dead, she is sleeping... »

That's another way to look at it, no problem.

I understand that the association given between elements and music instruments and weapons, among other things, is kind of a staple of RQ/Glorantha, although personally I tend to view it as kind of a neat detail/quirk that is given a weirdly large significance and shoe-horned in wherever any of these things appear. But opinions differ.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Patrick said:

And I just thought about the question of Gods as Tools - which may be thought of as manipulation, but is also practised in all Orlanthi myths.

Very good points.  And it's a perfect way to recast the Ernalda quests.  She is the quester, she must be armed with the right tools.  Does she choose the torch? the hammer? the bag of winds? Or maybe she uses one tool (Eurmal, for instance) to goad other tools in the direction she wishes.... Etc. 

2 hours ago, Patrick said:

She « gamifies » quests, so that her champions will do what’s right.

Also a useful concept.  Games become important, and the rewards for the games (e.g. Harvest Games, the Feast of Beasts, etc.) are great prizes that increase Reputation, etc.

Of course, she has to understand what outcome is desired and whether the rewards will push that outcome or not.  This is where skills such as Intrigue, Charm, Evaluate, all come into play. (Maybe she even invents Gaming skills as ways to both entertain and to push certain results...)

[Alex]

On 5/25/2020 at 8:39 PM, Shawn Carpenter said:

If Ernalda was presented as a goddess whose compassion is mixed with a healthy dose of pragmatism whose main goal is the continuance of community, I think she'd be a lot more popular with players. 

Isn't that exactly the Ernalda Allmother aspect, in the sense of Thunder Rebels?  Which was (righteously, to a degree) criticised as "domestic drudgery" and "salami-sliced subcults", but that's more an error of execution than conception.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

Isn't that exactly the Ernalda Allmother aspect, in the sense of Thunder Rebels?  Which was (righteously, to a degree) criticised as "domestic drudgery" and "salami-sliced subcults", but that's more an error of execution than conception.

You have a tendency to bring up long-dormant threads Alex. As an aside, the RQG Ernalda cult is one of the more popular player cults in my experience, and far more popular than the horrible domestic Ernalda cults in Thunder Rebels.

[Bill the barbarian]

But Jeff, this is an excellent topic! Which should make it prime for necromancy, no? Or a bump to keep it alive at least.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Alex]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You have a tendency to bring up long-dormant threads Alex. As an aside, the RQG Ernalda cult is one of the more popular player cults in my experience, and far more popular than the horrible domestic Ernalda cults in Thunder Rebels.

I'm a long-dormant guy, what can I tell you.  Wasn't posting here when the thread was active, dunno what custom and practice here is about zombie-threading.  If you'd prefer new posts on older topics after (let's say) a year of inactivity, I'd be equally happy to go with that.

I've no beef with how RQG presents Ernalda (and I already gave my issues -- and very obviously not mine alone -- with the HW take).  Just attempting to frame Shawn's 'presentation' point in terms of aspects/subcults/cultist variation.

[HeartQuintessence]

A little necromancy never hurt anyone now did it?

But bringing this back did make me think, that RQ/Glorantha's someway dated/gender essentialism (at times) especially in older materials that kinda gets reinforced through cults is annoying.

I.e. Vingans are Warrior Women, not Ernaldan, if you want to do that, then go join Babester Gor. There should be more flavors and nuance. Though I suppose some of that is to allow the players to decide and build things.

But new players to Glorantha would struggle to make choice or sense of it and I've found, Glorantha to be a little stuck sometimes- for its female players (and it characters).

My admitedly Sterotypical  Ernaldan Priestess while undergoing initiation, was basically a 'sassy ' Ernalda, and it hit me, why are Glorantha women portrayed in cerntain ways.

We've discussed Runes, but what happens when Runes on a woman, are not typical. an Orlanthi might have a Moon Rune, and as  while women in Glorantha don't nessacerily menstruate (monthly, apparently depending on who you ask)- it does bring up the question: If you're a woman with non-standard runes how does this effect your life?

[Kloster]

13 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

If you're a woman with non-standard runes how does this effect your life?

You probably end being initiated in a non-standard cult. Same for men.

[Tindalos]

49 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

A little necromancy never hurt anyone now did it?

But bringing this back did make me think, that RQ/Glorantha's someway dated/gender essentialism (at times) especially in older materials that kinda gets reinforced through cults is annoying.

I.e. Vingans are Warrior Women, not Ernaldan, if you want to do that, then go join Babester Gor. There should be more flavors and nuance. Though I suppose some of that is to allow the players to decide and build things.

But new players to Glorantha would struggle to make choice or sense of it and I've found, Glorantha to be a little stuck sometimes- for its female players (and it characters).

My admitedly Sterotypical  Ernaldan Priestess while undergoing initiation, was basically a 'sassy ' Ernalda, and it hit me, why are Glorantha women portrayed in cerntain ways.

We've discussed Runes, but what happens when Runes on a woman, are not typical. an Orlanthi might have a Moon Rune, and as  while women in Glorantha don't nessacerily menstruate (monthly, apparently depending on who you ask)- it does bring up the question: If you're a woman with non-standard runes how does this effect your life?

(Note: This post will purely be how I handle things in my Glorantha, in the hopes it's useful/interesting. If anything is offensive within, let me know so I can learn where and how I've messed up and correct my thinking.)

In Orlanthi society, Sex =/= Gender =/= Runes, although there are some connections that people will make between them, and misapprehensions because of that.

For example: many stereotypes associated with genders are the result of runes. A high affinity for the Air Rune makes you more passionate, violent, and unpredictable, and since most Orlanthi men have a high Air Rune, confusion has happened as to what's the cause and what's the effect.

Women can have high Air Runes too, and will be as passionate, unpredictable, and prone to violence as anyone else. Those with a high affinity for Darkness will have a tendency to be cruel and secretive, and will easily get a reputation as such, those with a high affinity for the Moon Rune would have a drive towards seeking spiritual liberation (I would also note that menstruation is almost certainly tied to a different celestial body than the Moon.)

 

Likewise, we know the Orlanthi record four sexes (male bodied, female bodied, neuter bodied, and intersex bodied) and at least six genders (female, male, nandan, vingan, helering, and none).

Following on from this, as sex and gender is seen as separated, I would say that the idea of vingan gendered individuals as being transmen is not (at least IMG) the case, and that transgendered individuals are still accepted, and while sometimes confused by outsiders, recognised as having a different role.

Or in other words, there are men born in the bodies of women, vingans born in the bodies of women, and vingans born in the bodies of men.

 

And this is separate to cult membership. Someone vingan gendered does not have to be a member of Vinga's cult. Vinga is open to a wide variety of members, and although there is undeniably a certain level of expectation for vingan individuals to join Vinga's cult that's simply through tradition.

Both Vinga's and Babeester's cults are open to vingans, women regardless of their bodies, and include some helerings and agender individuals as well. It's just that without knowing everyone who's a member, people make assumptions and judgements.

Such as the assumption that Babeester Gori cannot love, have children or have sex. Some God Learner scribe noted that down after interviewing (some might say interrogating) some cult members who were agender or simply asexual and gave their reasoning. And simply because it fit their ideas, the scribe noted it as a fact for all.

[JonL]

15 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Vingans are Warrior Women, not Ernaldan, if you want to do that, then go join Babester Gor. There should be more flavors and nuance. Though I suppose some of that is to allow the players to decide and build things.

There is also Enferalda, the aspect of Ernallda who is sick of your bullshit and will smack you upside the head, possibly with a frying pan. 

[Alex]

18 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

We've discussed Runes, but what happens when Runes on a woman, are not typical. an Orlanthi might have a Moon Rune, and as  while women in Glorantha don't nessacerily menstruate (monthly, apparently depending on who you ask)- it does bring up the question: If you're a woman with non-standard runes how does this effect your life?

I'll grant you the celestialology of this is a little opaque.  Glorantha is very much the Land of Broken Moons.  Having a big ol' moon is pretty important to our thinking about mythology -- paging the shade of Robert Graves!  Doesn't the Slaying of Yelm sound like a Vast Lunar Conspiracy to eclipse the sun?  But doesn't work for the Gloranthan sky as we understand it, at least from how it appears in the Third Age.

And likewise "months".  They don't feature in the most-well known calendar, and the main "moon" really does not seem like a suitable candidate for that kind of, well, cycle!  But there is also the Tolat/Shargash planet -- arguably a "moon" by some definitions, arguably not by others.  It has a periodicity of 28 days...  and wildly unsuitable mythic associations.  Some sort of Fertility god, but fairly consistently a male one, it seems.  And there's also the Entekos/Dendara/Mostalf planet -- you've guessed it, arguably a "moon" by some definitions, arguably not by others.  She's in the sky for 31 days, and then in the underworld for the same time, and is mythically more female/earth/fertility-associated.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Alex

[Joerg]

If men can be initiated to Ernalda, I don't see why a warrioress cannot.

The religious identity doesn't have to be congruent to the professional identity - enough people have undergone a career change due to external influences.

Initiation is not a requirement for most careers. Lay membership will carry you far enough for most occupations to be competent, though not outstanding. But that's where characters who aren't single trick ponies come in. A warrioress with extra qualifications may make her way beyond rank and file due to these extra qualiications, or she may be uniquely prepared to bring her profession into an unusual task by her cult. 

[Alex]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

If men can be initiated to Ernalda, I don't see why a warrioress cannot.

Sure!  This is pretty much reinventing the aforementioned Enferalda "aspect".  Or "sub-aspect".  Or just "take".  I dun wanna say "subcult" as that might be construed as having a grá for the absurdly salami-sliced version in Th*nd*r R*b*ls.  Which I do not have.  There's a whole menu of Ernaldan skills, Battle Magic (sic), and Rune Magic, concentrate on the ones that work for you.  Be they ever so whappy.

Or maybe the Bevera mythic role:  if you're a "combat medic", but not under either any the social protection CAs are under, or indeed their requirement to be pacifist, presumably you're fighting right up to the point someone else needs Healing, right?  So is the Healer with a minor in Warrior, or is that Warrior with a side of Healer?  Dealer's choice, I very much think, either works.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Initiation is not a requirement for most careers.

I agree, especially as I saw someone elsewhere recently wondering aloud -- whether rhetorically or for their own information -- whether there was a place for Griselda in RQ:G.  There is, but presumably it's not as an initiate to any of the Otherworld-Botherers!

OTOH, I don't think even being somewhat counter-stereotype is an impediment to initiate either.  Some of that there divine magic is entirely congruent with being sick of your bullshit and about to smack you upside the head, possibly with a frying pan -- albeit not essential for that task.