Some enchanted eveni... copper

[Shiningbrow]

I was directed to the write-up on copper in the adventurers book through a different thread, and I had to ask the obvious question.. 

"Enchanted copper armor and weapons are especially solid, and such weapons only lose armor points damage in combat when penetrated for over twice their armor point value. For example, over 24 points of damage would be needed before an enchanted copper broadsword would lose any hit points. However, all damage over 12 points would go through to the wielder. Enchanted copper armor can be hammered very thin and still retain some solidity. This reduces the armor’s defensive value by 1 point, but halves its ENC. Thus, a full suit of plate armor would have 5 armor points and weigh 6 ENC. 

So, what if you don't hammer it really thin, and have it at normal ENC. Surely this makes enchanted copper tougher (better) than Iron??? Like - full plate (a cuirass or greaves/vambraces/helm) would have 10 armour... (instead of Iron's 9). 

[Richard S.]

If not hammered thin it should have the same properties as normal bronze armour.

[Diana Probst]

It doesn't have the same protective properties as iron - someone hit for 8HP through a 6 point weapon parry will still be hurt for 2 points of damage.  However, the weapon used to parry will not be harmed.

The same weapon parrying 13 points of damage would take 1 hp in damage and let through 7.

Both of those weapons are not hammered thin.  They are just resilient in themselves, not protective.

So, imagine that applies to armour too - the armour itself you don't track HP on, but it still lets through the same amount of damage as bronze armour does, it's just that it takes less of a battering itself.

Make it thinner and the 'thinner copper' rules apply, but at full weight, it's no more protective, it's just harder to damage.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Diana Probst
Clarification of comparison

[Tindalos]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, what if you don't hammer it really thin, and have it at normal ENC. Surely this makes enchanted copper tougher (better) than Iron??? Like - full plate (a cuirass or greaves/vambraces/helm) would have 10 armour... (instead of Iron's 9). 

I see no reason why it would double its armour points, just because the weapons do.

A normal suit of copper plate is probably still 6 points and 12 ENC, it's just that you can make it much lighter while only losing a tiny bit of its protection.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I see no reason why it would double its armour points, just because the weapons do.

A normal suit of copper plate is probably still 6 points and 12 ENC, it's just that you can make it much lighter while only losing a tiny bit of its protection.

Because if the last part of the description... Half the ENC for only -1 AP (when "hammered thin")

So, if it's thicker it ought to be tougher ie, more protective. (How much is really the question).

So, it's not exactly "because the weapons do", it's because that's what normally happens. One piece of paper doesn't stop much. A phonebook is hard to penetrate.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Because if the last part of the description... Half the ENC for only -1 AP (when "hammered thin")

So, if it's thicker it ought to be tougher ie, more protective. (How much is really the question).

So, it's not exactly "because the weapons do", it's because that's what normally happens. One piece of paper doesn't stop much. A phonebook is hard to penetrate.

from my perspective the half enc (here) is more a weight notion (not size)

If you "double" the enc that mean you double size and weight so the armor should not be practical

 

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Because if the last part of the description... Half the ENC for only -1 AP (when "hammered thin")

So, if it's thicker it ought to be tougher ie, more protective. (How much is really the question).

So, it's not exactly "because the weapons do", it's because that's what normally happens. One piece of paper doesn't stop much. A phonebook is hard to penetrate.

And it does, by 1 point.

I was assuming you were getting the doubled value from the weapon bit, because there's no other mention of the armour being doubled and it seems a big leap when the rules didn't say anything about it not being as normal.

In fact it explicitly mentions that raw copper armour has the same armour points as bronze, and nothing about enchanting changing that.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

from my perspective the half enc (here) is more a weight notion (not size)

If you "double" the enc that mean you double size and weight so the armor should not be practical

 

 

9 hours ago, Tindalos said:

And it does, by 1 point.

I was assuming you were getting the doubled value from the weapon bit, because there's no other mention of the armour being doubled and it seems a big leap when the rules didn't say anything about it not being as normal.

In fact it explicitly mentions that raw copper armour has the same armour points as bronze, and nothing about enchanting changing that.

I'm presuming "hammered thin"' means somewhat thinner than regular - compared to both unenchanted copper and typical bronze. 

So, if it's regular thickness (or even a little more than), it suggests to me that it should be tougher than the -1 bronze equivalent. 

@Tindalos yep... Unenchanted copper is the same thickness and hardness as bronze! Enchanted copper has half the weight *and* is (somewhat??) thinner. Thus my argument about thicker enchanted copper.

[gochie]

I agree that logically, if the armor being half the weight/thickness of bronze is only 1 AP lower, full-thickness should be significantly stronger. 

I guess a way to house-rule it would be that enchanting copper simply makes the item 50% lighter and is as solid as bronze. (We already rule that normal copper offers as much AP as bronze but is more fragile, losing 1 AP anytime damage exceeds it). 

[Mirza]

I'm with Richard and Tindalos, when enchanted at normal thickness for the style of armor, enchanted copper armor provides the same defense and encumbrance as bronze armor, y'know the metal that is approximately 90% copper by composition.

The option for a thinner, lighter, but weaker set of copper armor is precisely that, an option, it's a special circumstance that takes advantage of coppers unique properties, it's a very ductile metal that can be hammered thinner than bronze can be due to it's softness, and then enchanted to be stronger, but not as strong as it would be at normal enc.

But if the redsmith is just hammering a normal thickness copper plate cuirass for a Babeester Gor cultist and enchanting it, then it's just the same defense and encumbrance as bronze with the added benefit of only taking damage to the armor when penetrated for over double the armor point value.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Mirza

[Shiningbrow]

30 minutes ago, Mirza said:

I'm with Richard and Tindalos, when enchanted at normal thickness for the style of armor, enchanted copper armor provides the same defense and encumbrance as bronze armor, y'know the metal that is approximately 90% copper by composition.

The option for a thinner, lighter, but weaker set of copper armor is precisely that, an option, it's a special circumstance that takes advantage of coppers unique properties, it's a very ductile metal that can be hammered thinner than bronze can be due to it's softness, and then enchanted to be stronger, but not as strong as it would be at normal enc.

But if the redsmith is just hammering a normal thickness copper plate cuirass for a Babeester Gor cultist and enchanting it, then it's just the same defense and encumbrance as bronze with the added benefit of only taking damage to the armor when penetrated for over double the armor point value.

I'd agree... Except that the ENC is half. Not 90%. Not 76%. But 50%. 

You can obviously hammer out a bronze cuirass that has half ENC as well... You just get half the armour value... 

The magic is contradicting the math... As @gochie said, "logically.. ".

 

[Diana Probst]

25 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd agree... Except that the ENC is half. Not 90%. Not 76%. But 50%. 

You can obviously hammer out a bronze cuirass that has half ENC as well... You just get half the armour value... 

The magic is contradicting the math... As @gochie said, "logically.. ".

 

a) Go with the magic.

b) The cuirass doesn't magically start to cover more.  You're still likely poking around the edges when you're stabbing someone, not going through it.  Thinner copper makes it more likely you can cut through it, but not massively more likely.  The ductility helps when it's thinner, but after a while you're just adding weight pointlessly, because nobody was going to stab through there anyhow.

c) ENC is not a smooth curve.  Having several tiny items can use up your hands and having a heavy, well-balanced backpack can mean you can still run.  1 ENC is not about weight, but about bulkiness or difficulty in lifting and moving things.  So 'half ENC' doesn't mean half size.  It means 'half as much bother'.

Expanded c) When I, who can lift about 5kg with my gammy shoulder, have to lift 4kg at 1m, it's OK.  I can do it.  When I have to lift 6 it's emphatically not.  The 2kg extra is at least as much work as the 4kg initial stuff that didn't bother me.  So the ENC numbers themselves, for weight, are different there.  One ENC 'weighs' 4kg and one 'weighs' 2kg.  ENC is not weight or even bulk, so much as carrying difficulty, as an abstract.

[Shiningbrow]

47 minutes ago, Diana Probst said:

a) Go with the magic.

b) The cuirass doesn't magically start to cover more.  You're still likely poking around the edges when you're stabbing someone, not going through it.  Thinner copper makes it more likely you can cut through it, but not massively more likely.  The ductility helps when it's thinner, but after a while you're just adding weight pointlessly, because nobody was going to stab through there anyhow.

c) ENC is not a smooth curve.  Having several tiny items can use up your hands and having a heavy, well-balanced backpack can mean you can still run.  1 ENC is not about weight, but about bulkiness or difficulty in lifting and moving things.  So 'half ENC' doesn't mean half size.  It means 'half as much bother'.

Expanded c) When I, who can lift about 5kg with my gammy shoulder, have to lift 4kg at 1m, it's OK.  I can do it.  When I have to lift 6 it's emphatically not.  The 2kg extra is at least as much work as the 4kg initial stuff that didn't bother me.  So the ENC numbers themselves, for weight, are different there.  One ENC 'weighs' 4kg and one 'weighs' 2kg.  ENC is not weight or even bulk, so much as carrying difficulty, as an abstract.

A) fine, I can live with that (barely).

B&C) don't work, because the only difference between the bronze cuirass and the copper cuirass is the metal and thinness. Size and shape will be the same. So, there ought to be no change in bulkiness or "bother". 

Generic question - is bronze.normally about 25% stronger than pure copper? (IANAM - M obviously for Metallurgist)

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Generic question - is bronze.normally about 25% stronger than pure copper? (IANAM - M obviously for Metallurgist)

The exact advantage of a tin bronze (for some reason traded as "phosphorous bronze") depends on the exact composition, but 8% tin has about half again the tensile strength of pure copper. Hardness is higher, too. What's lower is the melting point of bronze, making copper the Gloranthan metal of choice for branding or for smith's pliers or glassblowing when iron isn't available.

The advantages of enchanted copper aren't due to any properties of the real world metal, but to the properties of the element the metal is derived from.

Gloranthan material science follows real world material science about half the time. The rest is grounded in the mythic archetypes connected to the metal.

[Mugen]

Remember that the metals that are named "bronze", "copper", "iron" and so on in Glorantha are not the same as their Earth equivalents.

That's the reason why you can find natural bronze, for instance.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The magic is contradicting the math... As @gochie said, "logically.. ".

 

I would think magic's main job is to contradict math, math just has to keep up (stoopid math).

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Mugen said:

Remember that the metals that are named "bronze", "copper", "iron" and so on in Glorantha are not the same as their Earth equivalents.

That's the reason why you can find natural bronze, for instance.

Yeah, I'd actually prefer if the Gloranthan names were used instead...

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I would think magic's main job is to contradict math, math just has to keep up (stoopid math).

Math can't keep up!

[davecake]

1) Gloranthan metals are not the same as terrestrial metals, as other have pointed out

2) game rules are always abstractions and oversimplifications, even in pretty simulationist games like RQ, so you can't always assume things like ENC is always directly proportional to weight (its an abstraction that combines weight and 'awkwardness'), or damage, that is stopped by APs, is a consistent and direct correlation to force.

3) even if the rules were perfect, real world materials science, design, etc is usually not as simple or linear as twice as much is always twice as good, often very far from it.