Giants vs. Dragons

[Sir_Godspeed]

I seem to recall something about there, very early on in the God Time being a war between giants and dragons, a war that supposedly the dragons won. I think it's from the Guide, but I might be wrong.

I'm curious to learn more, and I'll gladly take pointers. 

I'm tempted to align the giants with Earth elementally (getting a bit of a primordial titan feel from them in this context, as opposed to just big people), but I realize that giants can be so many things and that they don't all necessarily should be grouped together in any other sense than being very large beings (ostensibly of roughly Man-rune shape). 

Dragons are dragons, and so kinda defy all attempts at classification too, although I'm curiously wondering if this was some early, primordial war, whether it was a case of the earthly giants fighting off vengeful seas, which are often referred to as dragons, just as the earth cube rose from the seas - but I mean, this is based on little more than me thinking that would be a cool setup. On the other hand it could be a war to settle where dragons could set up their nests on the Earth cube. Either one of them could've seen the other as invaders. 

I also wonder if there's some connection to an early emergence of the Man Rune, possibly something to do with an entanglement with the Dragonewt rune (which could be related, in a way, since the basic bodyplan is similar, and since we also see the beast rune derive from the dragon's scales). Anyway, another hare-brained idea from me. 

Alternatively, I might be overestimating the antiquity of this war and it might have happened later, when the world was filled with a lot more other creatures and it was less cataclysmic than what I get the impression of. 

Cheers for any info or thoughts of your own! 

[Richard S.]

Pretty much all else we know about this was that it was "in the early stirrings of protomyth". AFAIK, it's not really important to anyone, it's just a curiosity of early creation times. You're probably right about the Earth association, it's been alluded/theorized that Genert fathered them. Possibly if the giants had won they would have had more of a presence, maybe we would've had an Empire of the Giants Friends instead of Wyrms Friends .

[Akhôrahil]

If you're playing a super epic game, the giants are pretty underused. Everyone is always about the dragons, which means there's an opening to be Giant experts. Possibly Pavis/Green Age/Genert/Prax-related.

[davecake]

You are probably thinking of the Annilla cult writeup, though there isn't much. Of course when you take two thinks as mysterious as elder giants and dragons, what will really clear things up is the Blue Moon, right?

Quote

The say [Annilla] was the Queen of the Great Giants, a mysterious race which fought the dragons of old. Her husband, who was dismembered by the dragons, is called He Who Moves. Finding his corpse, the goddess devoured it and begat a child with no soul, who was subsequently possessed by Annilla. This, say the trolls, is the origin of the Blue Moon. Thus embodied, she taught Kyg0r Litor how to be a troll. 

It certainly does invite some speculation, right? 

 

[davecake]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you're playing a super epic game, the giants are pretty underused. Everyone is always about the dragons, which means there's an opening to be Giant experts.

Argrath, being Argrath, is already a giant AND a dragon expert. 

[Richard S.]

20 minutes ago, davecake said:

You are probably thinking of the Annilla cult writeup, though there isn't much. Of course when you take two thinks as mysterious as elder giants and dragons, what will really clear things up is the Blue Moon, right?

It certainly does invite some speculation, right? 

 

Where's that write-up from? I wasn't aware that Annilla had ever had an officially published cult.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Richard S.

[davecake]

Just now, Richard S. said:

Where's that write-up from?

The Troll Gods book from the RQ3 Troll Good boxed set. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Argrath, being Argrath, is already a giant AND a dragon expert. 

technically we see him earning his learning about giants, which is one of the weirdly visible moments of his education as we know it. the anti-robcradle defense comes after he travels to the far north and spends time with the giants. most of argrath's illumination experiences is off-screen, so to speak, but the fight against the lunars along the zola fel shows him before illumination and fame in his still-learning phase earning the wisdom through heroic deeds.

the real question for me is about the godtime giants and dragons, because I think of them as the Predark Enemies who went native. Dragons in particular are deeply, deeply weird creatures in Glorantha.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

but the fight against the lunars along the zola fel shows him before illumination and fame in his still-learning phase earning the wisdom through heroic deeds.

Are you sure that's before Illumination? He immediately goes off on the round the oceans voyage with Harrek, and is clearly Illuminated by the time he returns. Before the Giant's Cradle, he's already freed the White Bull spirit, formed the White Bull society and gained the gift of the Dragon's Teeth (see GS p.43 and 206). 

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

Argrath, being Argrath, is already a giant AND a dragon expert. 

True, you simply cannot out-munchkin Argrath.

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

True, you simply cannot out-munchkin Argrath.

Or most illuminates for that matter if you get right down to it.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Or most illuminates for that matter if you get right down to it.

the trick is to get to them before they realise they can really munchkin it up

[davecake]

On 2/22/2020 at 1:41 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

the real question for me is about the godtime giants and dragons, because I think of them as the Predark Enemies who went native.

Predark enemies that became native sounds like the part of pre-Creation Chaos that became the world. 

Which is fine. 

I think of them as another ancient duality. Giants are the part of ancient pre-creation that mostly, eventually, became matter, dragons as the part of ancient creation that mostly, eventually, became life. But like (almost?) everyone else that wasn't around before the Green Age, I probably misunderstand terribly. 

[davecake]

On 2/23/2020 at 3:37 AM, Darius West said:

Or most illuminates for that matter if you get right down to it.

The majority of mystics probably don't even see the point of munchkining it up too much. They'd just like to be left alone (including being left alone by people who hate Chaos, people who like Chaos too much, most of the other people, the gods, spirits of retribution, people who want to learn to be Illuminated in a hurry (so they can go and be munchkins), and people who are Illuminated and would like to get all munchkinish and make an Empire (large or small)). But those folks don't make for interesting history, magic, or adventures. 

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

The majority of mystics probably don't even see the point of munchkining it up too much. They'd just like to be left alone (including being left alone by people who hate Chaos, people who like Chaos too much, most of the other people, the gods, spirits of retribution, people who want to learn to be Illuminated in a hurry (so they can go and be munchkins), and people who are Illuminated and would like to get all munchkinish and make an Empire (large or small)). But those folks don't make for interesting history, magic, or adventures. 

Nope.  Not a bit.  The God Learners were largely illuminated and so are the Lunars.  The illuminates are the ones who inevitably think they need to build a god outside the Compromise in order to destroy the Compromise, because while the don't detect as Chaos, illuminates ARE the agents of universal destruction in Glorantha.  Nysalor was a chaos deity, so was Zistor, and so is the Red Goddess.  Chaos isn't neutral, chaos is a path to destruction of the world, and the siren song of illumination is there to lead everyone down the primrose path to the moral relativism that can see an upside in destroying the world.

[dumuzid]

Years ago I played in a FATE: Glorantha game about Manirian refugees settling a new home after the Reforesting begins, which involved befriending some giants during a high mountain crossing. The group eventually turned in that favor to bring the giants in to build a magical city for the refugees to settle in at the end of the campaign.  The nice thing about giants is they can get up and do things without completely reshaping the countryside, like a true dragon would.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Nope.  Not a bit.  The God Learners were largely illuminated and so are the Lunars.  The illuminates are the ones who inevitably think they need to build a god outside the Compromise in order to destroy the Compromise, because while the don't detect as Chaos, illuminates ARE the agents of universal destruction in Glorantha.  Nysalor was a chaos deity, so was Zistor, and so is the Red Goddess.  Chaos isn't neutral, chaos is a path to destruction of the world, and the siren song of illumination is there to lead everyone down the primrose path to the moral relativism that can see an upside in destroying the world.

YGWV, but this seems a little absolutist

[Richard S.]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Nope.  Not a bit.  The God Learners were largely illuminated and so are the Lunars.  The illuminates are the ones who inevitably think they need to build a god outside the Compromise in order to destroy the Compromise, because while the don't detect as Chaos, illuminates ARE the agents of universal destruction in Glorantha.  Nysalor was a chaos deity, so was Zistor, and so is the Red Goddess.  Chaos isn't neutral, chaos is a path to destruction of the world, and the siren song of illumination is there to lead everyone down the primrose path to the moral relativism that can see an upside in destroying the world.

Source for the God Learners being mostly Illuminates? And for Zistor being a chaos deity? And for Illuminates and chaos only being agents for destruction (you do realize that the chaos being released into the world through the Chaosium is necessary for its survival, right)? I agree with Ali, this sounds very absolutist and also very much like just your opinion, which is well and good for your Glorantha but not when we're discussing canon.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Richard S.

[dumuzid]

Well, Zistor was sufficiently Chaotic that Only Old One called a successful Unity Battle against it, as was done against Gbaji in at the end of the First Age.  Can't speak for the rest though.

[Ali the Helering]

23 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Well, Zistor was sufficiently Chaotic that Only Old One called a successful Unity Battle against it, as was done against Gbaji in at the end of the First Age.  Can't speak for the rest though.

Zistor was far more closely associated with the forces of Law than those of Chaos. The OOO was able to activate opposition to a disproportionate focus on one aspect of reality. 

[dumuzid]

Just now, Ali the Helering said:

Zistor was far more closely associated with the forces of Law than those of Chaos. The OOO was able to activate opposition to a disproportionate focus on one aspect of reality. 

Like the exact opposition faced on a heroquest sometimes differing from the 'traditional' encounter?  Interesting.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Source for the God Learners being mostly Illuminates?

There are some minor sources for some God-Learners being Illuminated, but I personally massively disagree about the notion that many were.

Illumination is basically post-modernism. God-Learnerism is modernism and magic-as-science. They are opposed projects.  

I don't think Zistor was chaotic as anything besides a walking Compromise breach. Definitely less so than the Red Goddess. The Orlanthi love the "Chaos is really bad, therefore what's really bad is Chaos" argument.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't think Zistor was chaotic as anything besides a walking Compromise breach. Definitely less so than the Red Goddess. The Orlanthi love the "Chaos is really bad, therefore what's really bad is Chaos" argument.

Zistor broke the Compromise, which is basically Chaotic by definition within the Orlanthi/Theyalan cultural mindset and mythology, as I see it. Whether it was actually, literally riddled with Chaos Runes or whatever is less important. That's just my take on it. 

(Interestingly, they seem to be okay with their own gods breaking the Compromise once the Compromise already has been broken, cf. the Battle of Castle Blue. Presumably because the intent is to yank the Compromise back in place.)

Edited February 24, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

Nope.  Not a bit.  The God Learners were largely illuminated and so are the Lunars. 

I disagree and I think this is objectively wrong on the God Learners. The rest of Darius' ramblings are merely the benighted confusion of the un-Illuminated, one who can see facts but lacks true understanding of mystic truth. As a non-mystic, how could he be expected to understand the difference between true Illumination and Occlusion? 

(😇 and how come none of these emojis have a third eye?) 

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

There are some minor sources for some God-Learners being Illuminated, but I personally massively disagree about the notion that many were.

Thats roughly my opinion, though I'd say a sizeable minority, and exactly which ones is an interesting question.

To get into more detail, dive into Middle Sea Empire, and look at the factions and movements within the God Learners. IMO the Malkioneranists absolutely were often Illuminated, and are responsible for many of the greatest excesses of the God Learners. They were still a minority movement compared to the mainstream Makanists, who I do not think were Illuminated. It's important to understand just how intellectually diverse the God Learners were, including many heresies, so most of the time any statement about 'the God Learners believed' is likely to, at best, apply only to a majority, and Illumination was pretty clearly a minority. 

I don't think the idea that the Malkioneranists were Illuminates/mystics is straight out stated in MSE, but I think it is heavily implied - not only did their movement originate in knowledge obtained via a First Age, Gbaji wars era, artifact (quite possibly an Arkati heroquest instruction device), but also developed many 'strange new practices' and had to adjust their doctrine somewhat. But note it's explicit that they got a lot of hostility from Makanism for all this. 

And note that not all of the excesses of the God Learners are the result of Malkioneranists use of Illumination and heroquesting to mess with divine cults. The Zistorites I think had very little to do with that intellectual strain of God Learning, instead they were extreme Reconstructionalists, which is a very sorcery centred movement that is wholly compatible with Makanist magical techniques (if way too radical to remain consistent with a conservative document like the Abiding Book). They were more about massive use of sorcery, enchanted devices, alchemy, ritual etc. rather than heroquesting (though I'm sure they did some of that too). The God Learners did some world breaking innovative magic that required Illumination and abuse of divine magic, for sure - but they also did some world breaking innovative magic that just took experimental sorcery techniques and the Makanist world view  to an extreme (like the Zistor project). Note the Zistor project was not located in the Left Arm Islands by accident - Locsil the Clanking City was founded as a collaboration with the Ingareens of God Forgot, an ancient pure sorcery people. 

And then there were the Emanationalists - especially popular in Pamaltela, but some everywhere - who I also think were mostly Makanist, and mostly relied on sorcery not Illumination and misuse of divine magic, though probably did join some 'compatible' cults like Lhankor Mhy or Issaries and try to reform them from within - who would often interact with divine magic but in a more proscriptive and retributive than experimental fashion, like using sorcery to capture foreign spirits, capture other cultures magic, and so on - certainly what most would identify as God Learner excesses, but not necessarily in the experimental world breaking vein, more raw cultural imperialism that crosses the boundaries between forms of magic. I think largely Emanationalism was the God Learner movement to engage with animist powers - by crushing it, and using their spirits for their own purposes via sorcerous 'demonology', and taking all their stuff along the way. The creed of the Six Legged Empire especially, but influential elsewhere in the (huge, quite heterogenous) Empire.

Umathela, especially Vralos was probably one of the places where all of these traditions came together and contended and shared knowledge (under the intellectual ambition of the Lord of the World's Knowledge) - and so predictably one of the places where the retribution against the God Learners magic was most vicious and complete. 

So, I don't think the God Learners were 'largely' Illuminated, or should be regarded as a mystic movement. But you absolutely can't ignore the role of mysticism/Illumination in understanding the God Learners. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by davecake

[davecake]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Illumination is basically post-modernism. God-Learnerism is modernism and magic-as-science. They are opposed projects.  

To get more precise:

Makanism is mainstream God-Learnerism, and can be roughly understood as a magical Gloranthan version of modernism, yeah. Not just in magic-as-science, but in attempting (and initially succeeding, though ultimately failing) to create a singular world view that can be understood as objectively correct.

Malkioneranism can be understood as post-modernism - it took Illumination, showed that there are other valid worldviews that reveal weaknesses within Makanism. It is an oposed project - and Makanism and Malkioneranism were hostile.

But Illumination is much more than post-modernism. Post-modernism is a critique of modernism. Illumination reveals the flaws of the pure sorcerous worldview that is the foundation of Makanism for sure, but mysticism is also a living tradition of ancient knowledge that has its own insights and its own powers. It's intended not just to show the flaws in other systems of thought, but to show a deeper, more profound, truth. If you can't see this deeper truth, then you are just rejecting what you know (divine law, objective truth, etc) without anything to replace it with - what the Lunars call Occlusion, sometimes referred to as the Dark Side of Nysalor, or by the Arkati just Gbaji. The Eastern myths (and so Eastern orthodox mysticism) are more explicit about this, as they have a number of myths about 'Illuminated' beings falling into error and doing terrible or false things. 

Even the name Illumination, rather than more general mysticism, could be regarded as (at least initially) mysticism for divine followers - Nysalor was mystic teaching suddenly exploding into a theist culture, and the reaction to, and understanding of, mysticism was very much about how it changed the relationship with the gods, in cultures used to getting all their moral teachings from the gods. Pelorian Illuminates care FAR more about the ability of Illuminates to ignore the cult strictures and Spirits of Retribution than the majority of Eastern mystics do, I think. For most (mostly Eastern) orthodox mystics, why join a gods cult at all?