Dogs in Prax?

[Geoff R Evil]

I tend to agree, no dogs for Agimori. At least for Praxian ones. It just does not fit the tight family controlled discipline of these people. 

[Darius West]

On 4/5/2024 at 8:45 PM, David Scott said:

If a player wanted to play a men-and-a-half (per RQB 75) and chose the Hunter occupation, I'd let them have a hunting animal (typically a shadowcat or dog) per the occupation (RQG 69). I'd let them have a dog or another animal - maybe a even a baboon (normal), monkey or hawk, but not a shadowcat as they are Sartar and Hendrikiland specific (RQB 144).

The men-and-a-half have been in Prax and the Wastes since before the Dawn, and their hunters have been in contact with those of the other tribes (per Organization LB 88), they hunt the same animals, and occasionally participate in the same Great Hunts. I've always imagined that hunting animals are not widespread amongst any of the Praxian hunters, and I apply that to the men-and-a-half too. Note that in the Great Hunt, hunters must hunt alone - so no hunting animals.

As for camp dogs, I don't think the men-and-a-half have those, as they are related to Waha (Waha's brother is a dog - RQB 144).

I could certainly see that an Agimori hunter who is well travelled may adopt an animal companion to help with hunting, and given Foundchild is their cult, I'd pretty much insist on Brother Dog.  But that would be for individuals who are away from their tribe and need help hunting.  Brother Dog will help.

It is also the case that Animal Nomads don't use dogs for anything other than guarding their camps.  Brother Dog is still a shamanic option however, just as worship of Foundchild is an option for Animal Nomads too, as Foundchild is Waha's old friend, and so is Brother Dog.  I don't think Agimori have camp dogs though.  I do include a small "warrior society" of Animal Nomads who use dogs to help with herding, who call themselves the Dog Brothers.

 I might argue that if the Agimori don't have camp dogs, where do they get their stock for hunting animals in you system, but YGWV.

[Darius West]

7 hours ago, Ironwall said:

They could use dogs as camp guardians.

If the Agimori did that, then they should also use them as hunting animals imo, given Brother Dog.  Certainly nobody is arguing that Animal Nomads don't use dogs to guard their camps, but do Agimori?

[svensson]

I'm gonna agree with you @Darius West, I don't think that the Men-and-a-Half use dogs either.

You bring up a very valid reason insofar as the cultural importance of the hunt to Agimori, and they don't use mounts much either. There is an implication that they do use them to an extent... my guess is laboring beasts pulling travois or hauling tentage, etc. But dogs as hunting assistants runs counter to the impression I've always had of them.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is also the case that Animal Nomads don't use dogs for anything other than guarding their camps.  Brother Dog is still a shamanic option however, just as worship of Foundchild is an option for Animal Nomads too, as Foundchild is Waha's old friend, and so is Brother Dog. 

The use of hunting dogs isn't widespread amongst the Praxians (per my discussion with Greg): 

I include them now only as it's an adventurer option for RQG. It allows adventures to have a dog.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

 I might argue that if the Agimori don't have camp dogs, where do they get their stock for hunting animals in you system, but YGWV.

There are usually (in this case one) a few individuals that breed dogs for this kind of use. When this came up in my Balazar campaign, so I created a Dog Mother - 

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6315-starting-runes/#comment-89865

 

[Joerg]

Are there domestic dogs on the Pamaltelan veldt? If so, in what role? Guardians, food, hunting companions, manslayers?

Quite a bit of the Pamaltelan fauna consists of megafauna - e.g. rhinos. There are only a few species of ungulates known to cope with the unique fauna of the veldt, including oryx antelopes and the milk antelope that occurs both as a Hsunchen animal and as domesticated source of milk at oases. Are the Agimori (Doraddi) lactose tolerant as a rule?

The Men-and-a-half of Prax are descendants of the elite chaos-fighting warriors who followed their god(s) (identified as Lodril rather than Pamalt) across the dry ground (dead yellow elf forest after Pamalt's victory over Filth Which Walks?) of late Lesser Darkness into the desolation left by the Death of Genert, possibly by way of Teleos. They don't seem to remember much of their migration history, or at least they don't share much of that. I wonder how their reaction to the Agimori who joined Harrek's Wolf Pirate Fleet in Laskal would be as the Wolf Pirates participate in the liberation of Pavis and the occupation of Corflu.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

Let us hypothesize, for a moment, the existence of the legendary Dogs-and-a-Half. How could any normal dog be expected to keep up with God's People? Perhaps they died out; perhaps they went feral, becoming another peril of the Praxian plains; perhaps only a mighty deed justifies the rite to create one. Or perhaps Argrath found the secret again, and returned them to Prax like the Auroch to Sartar.

One might draw a line from that hypothesis to the Skinning of the Wolves, afterwards. Only the mightiest hounds fight against Telmori brothers as equals. (Shall we name one Huan, and awaken him?) Not that any proper Sartarite has any truck with them, given Yinkin's Race Up The Tree, but Argrath's hardly proper anywhere he goes.

[EricW]

On 4/5/2024 at 5:37 PM, Darius West said:

While we know Agimori are the children of Lodril and generally worship Foundchild the hunter, there is never any mention of the Agimori employing dogs in their hunting.  Do Agimori employ dogs in their hunting? 

I personally think they don't.  Agimori are noted as taking a particular delight in hunting, and dogs would make that easier, perhaps too easy, which doesn't correspond with the Agimoris' regime of training hardships.  For this reason I don't think Agimori Foundchild worship includes Brother Dog. 

I am interested in people's opinions on the matter.

Dogs are natural hunters, who love gluttony and mischief and hearth fires, yet are fiercely loyal to their masters. I would have thought they would be natural companions? 

[svensson]

Well, insofar as Brother Dog goes, the Agimori are NOT part of Waha's Covenant. They are an accepted Lesser Tribe on the Plains because they came to fight Chaos and preserve Genert, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with the Paps or any of the more specific Waha mystic traditions.

In my mind, this tends to militate against the use of Waha-tradition justifications for Agimori using dogs.

I should also like to point out that a great many Earth societies ate dogs instead of using them as companion animals. That argument goes both ways.

[Ironwall]

44 minutes ago, svensson said:

In my mind, this tends to militate against the use of Waha-tradition justifications for Agimori using dogs.

However they do worship Foundchild who is associated with brother dog. So dogs could have a mystic justification for a dog presence among the Agimori. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Ironwall said:

However they do worship Foundchild who is associated with brother dog. So dogs could have a mystic justification for a dog presence among the Agimori. 

I wonder whether they really worship Foundchild or whether their neighbors call their ancestral worship of Rasout "Foundchild".

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

their neighbors call their ancestral worship of Rasout “Foundchild”

Are they wrong to do so? Are Hunter’s “sons” distinct from Hunter any more than Orlanth’s “daughter” is distinct from Orlanth? Applying the razor — as any good Lunar should — aren’t the names of Hunter’s sons just names for Hunter, as “Vinga” is (even if we don’t like it) just another name for the Big O? I mean, it is not as if we believe every land has its own distinct goddess, is it? 😉

[Sir_Godspeed]

20 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Are they wrong to do so? Are Hunter’s “sons” distinct from Hunter any more than Orlanth’s “daughter” is distinct from Orlanth? Applying the razor — as any good Lunar should — aren’t the names of Hunter’s sons just names for Hunter, as “Vinga” is (even if we don’t like it) just another name for the Big O? I mean, it is not as if we believe every land has its own distinct goddess, is it? 😉

IMHO, I think it's less that they are separate entities in and of themselves, but rather that the Agimori traditions can differ significantly from Genertelan Foundchild traditions. Can we infer Agimori traditions and beliefs by looking at Balazari and Praxian Foundchild beliefs and traditions? I have no idea, but it's an interesting question at least.
(that being said, they've been in the area for over a millennium, so SOME cultural drift is bound to have happened.)

[Ian Absentia]

I thought this discussion looked familiar.  We did this same thing four years ago.

Not that there isn't something new to add to the topic.

!i!

[Ynneadwraith]

16 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Are they wrong to do so? Are Hunter’s “sons” distinct from Hunter any more than Orlanth’s “daughter” is distinct from Orlanth? Applying the razor — as any good Lunar should — aren’t the names of Hunter’s sons just names for Hunter, as “Vinga” is (even if we don’t like it) just another name for the Big O? I mean, it is not as if we believe every land has its own distinct goddess, is it? 😉

This, as far as my Glorantha is concerned, is the primary sin of the Godlearners (and other syncretists that followed in their wake). The assumption that all entities are fragments of some greater whole, and not appreciating that they could be two separate entities artificially conjoined through Interpretatio Glorantha. But I'm a radical Gloranthan anti-syncretist, which isn't always helpful for filling in gaps in our knowledge 😄

On a practical note, I love the idea of lost Agimori 'Dogs-and-a-Half' that could potentially be returned by experimental heroquesting.

[Bohemond]

Yeah, I really like the Dog-and-a-Half idea as well. Perhaps he departed during the Godtime and they are still waiting for him to return, and therefore eschew lesser dogs as a gesture of devotion to the true dog. 

[Ynneadwraith]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

And combining religions needn’t lead to blandness, surely. West African religion meets Catholicism? We had two things, and now we have three (not one).

Very enlightened! I can sense my views softening 😉

I do like the idea that there's a mix of enforced syncretism as a realpolitik device, and gods that have genuinely fractured into smaller parts that can be knitted back together. Anything that makes the situation foggier (and thus more open to differing interpretations).

14 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Yeah, I really like the Dog-and-a-Half idea as well. Perhaps he departed during the Godtime and they are still waiting for him to return, and therefore eschew lesser dogs as a gesture of devotion to the true dog. 

Love the inclusion of the taboo on regular dogs as an act of devotion to the lost Dogs-and-a-Half. Has a lovely pathos to it.

[mfbrandi]

On 4/7/2024 at 6:15 PM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

Let us hypothesize, for a moment, the existence of the legendary Dogs-and-a-Half.

Expedition to the Nargan Desert to fetch some immortal giant dogs — steal/trade them from the Agitori? — then a magical ritual to make them mortal enough to be fertile? Sure, the pups will be a little smaller, but …

[Darius West]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:00 AM, Ironwall said:

However they do worship Foundchild who is associated with brother dog. So dogs could have a mystic justification for a dog presence among the Agimori. 

And yet we never get dogs in their stat blocks... Just sayin'.

[Darius West]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:22 AM, Joerg said:

I wonder whether they really worship Foundchild or whether their neighbors call their ancestral worship of Rasout "Foundchild".

Perhaps Rasout means "orphan", like Foundchild means "orphan"?

[mfbrandi]

Non-canon alert! (I mean it might still be, but I wouldn’t bet on it.)

• Hyenas are the dominant carnivores of the wastes … Hyenas have been semi-domesticated by the morokanth, who use them as guard animals in place of dogs.
  — Anaxial’s Roster, p. 86

Although a hyena is no dog at all, perhaps it is a dog-and-a-half. Unlike the morokanth, the agimori can actually thumb their noses at the animal nomads, and I am sure spotted hyenas would have no trouble keeping up with the people-and-a-half on hunting trips. Just a thought.