Orlanthi Property

[Jeff]

Here's a little snippet from a forthcoming players-oriented book I am working on (cross-posted by me from Facebook):

PROPERTY

The Orlanthi divide ownership into two types of property, called earth and chattel.

The Orlanthi view the Earth as belonging to (or even part of) Ernalda or the local Grain Goddess. It is part of the goddess. Very little land is “owned” by individuals. Instead, land is owned by the Earth temples and assigned to tribes, clans, temples, and other groups to use, develop, or protect, or to delegate to others to do such things with.

In Earth-dominated lands such as Esrolia, Ernalda's representatives directly administer the land. In Orlanthi societies such as Sartar, Ernalda has entrusted care of the land to her husband Orlanth, but still retains residual (if rarely exercised) authority. In most of Dragon Pass, Ernalda has given authority over the land to tribal or clan leaders, who in turn delegate responsibility for parcels or fields to smaller groups such as clans, temples, or households. This land is collectively owned by the group, though it is typically administered by a title-holder, such as a chieftain or chief priestess.

Land cannot be permanently alienated without the approval of the appropriate tribal or clan leaders, and the Earth temple. However, authority over specific pieces of land can be delegated to others. These assignments often include payment of silver, service, rent, or livestock from the assignee to the assignor. As long as the terms of the agreement are met and the assignee's use of the property does not offend the gods, the property remains under the care of the assignee.

This can result in very complex land arrangements. For example, the ultimate authority for the land around Clearwine Fort is the Clearwine Earth Temple. However, the tribal ring exercises authority over most of the land, distributing land to the clans, temples, and even individuals, The Sacred Fields near the Earth temple is land that Ernalda has reserved to herself. Clearwine Fort itself has land under the title of the tribal king, the tribal council, temples, and the clans (principally to the Ernaldoring clan). These groups in turn may delegate land to households, individuals, - even to strangers and foreigners - although “title” to the land remains with the Earth temple or the tribe. Much of the legal disputes the tribal king hears involves disputes over land.

Earth properties may also include herds, a type of seed or plant, a breed or color of animal, or other such public gift as may have been granted by or to the Earth.

Clans traditionally mark the boundaries of their land with marker stones blessed by the local Earth priestess. Moving or otherwise damaging these stones without the approval of the Earth temple can result in retribution from members of the Babeester Gor cult.

Private or “chattel” property is different. This property may be freely inherited, given away, invested, traded, loaned, squandered, or lost. The existence of chattel property is what makes a difference in the wealth of different families (hearths) even within a single household.

The word chattel is the old word for cattle. This is a throwback to the ancient practice when the Orlanthi measured wealth, rank, and privilege in the number of cows and bulls which they owned, and reflects the turbulent mythology of the storm gods. Transfer of chattel property is easy, and at whatever terms the owner desires.

There are many overlapping boundaries between earth and chattel property. For example, a household’s lands are earth, but the plows and teams, arms and armor are chattel property. Then they may be farming some lands of the clan temporarily granted by the chieftain, while tending a herd of sheep and plot of farmland for an absentee landlord.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Jeff

[Jeff]

As I commented to part of the house "kitchen cabinet" working with me on this, it is clear from this is how prestigious Ernalda is, but also makes it clear that one can "purchase" land. You just can't do it in fee simple - it's going to have to be something like life estate or leasehold.

Ernalda owns the land in fee simple absolute; but has transferred to the tribe or clan ownership in fee simple determinable (the clan loses the right if they offend the gods, or whatever). The land is held in common by the group, but assigns parts of the land in life estates or leaseholds to households, temples, whatever. 

So I can imagine that Prince Tarkalor persuaded the Colymar tribe to assign some land in the upper Swan vale to the Uleria temple he built to honor the Feathered Horse Queen or something like that. Maybe that was done just by the tribal assembly, maybe it was the tribal assembly, and the Varmandi and Hiording clans, all working in concert. Gringle, the Prince's merchant friend, bought a leasehold from that temple, assigned part of that to Bolthor Brewer to build the Tinn Inn, and pretty soon you have Apple Lane. Later on the Colymar assigned some lands to support a Thane to protect the locals.

But at the end of the day, this still is theoretically owned by the Earth Priestesses at Clearwine. And maybe periodically there must be a symbolic gift to the Clearwine Earth Temple to maintain this.

And you can imagine farmers, thanes, clans, and temples arguing about who owns what all day long.

[Nick Brooke]

Typo para.4:

without "... the assent of the Earth temple."

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nick Brooke

[Grievous]

This is interesting when considering two clans/tribes at war over territory, as really they're fighting over a lease on Ernalda's land. Sure, it seems this can be resolved by just the clan/tribal rings coming to a conclusion on who gets to administer it, but it also seems likely that the Ernalda temples would get involved, especially if the fighting effects the administering and bounty of the land (however it's not like they're wholly removed from the politics). Kinda puts an interesting spin on the idea of women's peace weaving between clans/tribes.

[French Desperate WindChild]

thanks Jeff it is a very interesting work.

It is very clear about the land. Unfortunately I am polluted by different sources about "chattel" property (I am discovering so many words 😛 ) and confused if i read it in canonical material, unofficial or nothing to see with glorantha

 

What happen if a mercenary bought some cows / horses / sheeps by himself (without his clan interaction, so no cattle raid, etc.. just he earned money when he was mercenary then buy animals) then go back to the clan. Who has the property ?

Is it a sort of ceremony resulting to a gift to the clan (even if the clan let him manage the herd, it is considered as herd clan) or this animals are designed as our mercenary herd, and calfs in this herd are still property of the guy and not the clan ?

 

What happen if heroes come back from a heroquest with some treasure in addition to the purpose of the quest (let say they succeed to obtain the blessing of ernalda, but in addition they steal weapons from some solar ennemy)

 

Is there any "gift tradition" and how it is working ? from stranger who are guest, from people wishing to be adopted, for any reasons inside the clan. What is too low, good or too high price.

 

This kind of material is what make for me the difference between glorantha and other rpg world.  Again thanks a lot for all this activity

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What happen if a mercenary bought some cows / horses / sheeps by himself (without his clan interaction, so no cattle raid, etc.. just he earned money when he was mercenary then buy animals) then go back to the clan. Who has the property ?

Livestock is chattel or private property. He owns it to do with it as he wants.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Livestock is chattel or private property. He owns it to do with it as he wants.

Except he has to find land to graze them on! And that's owned in common, so will have to make arrangements as to where he can do that (promising the first fatted calf as an offering, etc.).

[Jeff]

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Except he has to find land to graze them on! And that's owned in common, so will have to make arrangements as to where he can do that (promising the first fatted calf as an offering, etc.).

Lots of wild land is still "owned by the goddess" and can be used by whoever can defend themselves and their use.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Here's a little snippet from a forthcoming players-oriented book I am working on (cross-posted by me from Facebook):

PROPERTY

The Orlanthi divide ownership into two types of property, called earth and chattel.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Orlanthi view the Earth as belonging to (or even part of) Ernalda or the local Grain Goddess. It is part of the goddess. Very little land is “owned” by individuals. Instead, land is owned by the Earth temples and assigned to tribes, clans, temples, and other groups to use, develop, or protect, or to delegate to others to do such things with.

The Resettlement of Dragon Pass tells a somewhat different story. Clans and tribes migrated into a region without much of a temple structure. Clans and tribes would establish temples for the lands they claimed, making contracts with local earth entities. The Black Spear clan led by Colymar made an arrangement with Tarndisi, then established the Clearwine temple (and possibly moved that into Brondagal only after its establishment).

How many Locaem clans are holding their land from the Clearwine temple? Just the Zethnorings? What about the Annmagarn, are they subject to Clearwine, or do they hold their lands from Tarndisi?

What about the Hiordings and the Varmandi, or the Tree Triaty clans (Lysang, Namolding and Antorling)?

 

There is one famous dispute about the ownership (or lease) of land, the conflict between Harand Boardick and Jarani Whitetop about the slopes of Arrowmound. This is the Lawstaff path, featuring in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes.

Jarani claimed the land by right of Possession. Harand claimed the land by right of Establishment (which sounds a lot like "the Earth priestess said so"). The Lawstaff decided in favor of Jarani's claim. Harand still disagreed, and violence ensued.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

In Earth-dominated lands such as Esrolia, Ernalda's representatives directly administer the land. In Orlanthi societies such as Sartar, Ernalda has entrusted care of the land to her husband Orlanth, but still retains residual (if rarely exercised) authority. In most of Dragon Pass, Ernalda has given authority over the land to tribal or clan leaders, who in turn delegate responsibility for parcels or fields to smaller groups such as clans, temples, or households. This land is collectively owned by the group, though it is typically administered by a title-holder, such as a chieftain or chief priestess.

Tribes collapse, and clans change tribes ever now and then. Many clans joined the tribes later. The Colymar tribe (consisting of the five founding clans plus the Black Spear Clan) absorbed two triaties (Runegate, Tree - each after one of the constituent clans had been destroyed and was rebuilt from survivors and members of the core Colymar clans) and at least five individual clans (some of which have been lost since): Hiordings, Varmandi, Karandoli, Jenstali, Enjossi. Then there is the mysterious, unmapped Seven Brothers clan which apparently was Lunar-friendly. What authority did create their clan lands? At the cost of which existing clans?

The Torkani tribe was forced to relocate twice - first by the Sambari, then by the Telmori. How was that sanctioned by the Earth cult? Which temple would have authorized the changes in administration?

Lunar occupation meddled with land assignments. The Nymie valley slave plantation would have been authorized by the Clearwine Earth Temple, correct?

 

During the Lunar occupation, tribes were destroyed.

The first loss was the Maboder tribe, which had a representation in Jonstown (what happened to that?) and lands in what now is Wulfsland. About three remnant clans appear to have remained in Wulfsland, other survivors swelled the ranks of the Red Cow clan and probably other neighbors. Many perished.

The Dundealos Tribe was shattered by the Lunars, some clans left, others were forcibly integrated into the new Enstalos tribe. A few of the Dundealos clans remained in the Enstalos, others packed up and joined the Pol Joni - apparently as sedentary supporters around Barbarian Town.

The Firebull uprising of the Sambari doesn't seem to have damaged their tribe that much. The flashback against the Kultain capture/destruction of a supply train to the siege of Whitewall resulted in the destruction of the tribe, with one or two clans joining the Balmyr and the rest of the surviving clans (or newly merged survivor groups) ended up as Curtali or Sylangi clans.

In all these cases, thousands of tribesfolk would have been sent as slaves into the Lunar Empire, or forced to work on slave farms near their original homes.

 

Quite a few of these re-assignments took place under Fazzur's governorship. Fazzur was intimately familiar with the Orlanthi rules for land ownership, and may have used that familiarity to redistribute those clans and lands to his king's and his own profit, and the detriment of any Heartlander cronies.of Euglyptus and Tatius.

Both Wilmskirk and Jonstown lost constituent tribes - Jonstown twice, when the Dinacoli switched their allegiance to Aldachur after Starbrow's Rebelliion. That would have meant giving up real estate in Jonstown, without gaining much if any real estate in Aldachur.

 

What earth temples are known in Sartar? The major ones I can name are both in the westernmost parts, Clearwine and Greenstone. Each clan temple is an earth temple and has some authority over the land distribution inside the clan, but that is only for the core clan lands. Pasture and hunting rights further away may be shared with or contested by other clans.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Land cannot be permanently alienated without the approval of the appropriate tribal or clan leaders, and the Earth temple. However, authority over specific pieces of land can be delegated to others. These assignments often include payment of silver, service, rent, or livestock from the assignee to the assignor. As long as the terms of the agreement are met and the assignee's use of the property does not offend the gods, the property remains under the care of the assignee.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

This can result in very complex land arrangements. For example, the ultimate authority for the land around Clearwine Fort is the Clearwine Earth Temple.

How much authority does the temple have over Greydog or Enstalos lands? The Greydog clan never was part of the Colymar tribe, but has had pasture usage disputes with the Orlmarth for as long as they have been neighbors. The Enstalos used to be a core Colymar clan, but now they belong to the Locaem tribe, and their tribal temple may have different ideas about access to tribal commons (if such exist).

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

However, the tribal ring exercises authority over most of the land, distributing land to the clans, temples, and even individuals,

This comes very much as a surprise to me. I had the impression that membership in a tribe is an advantageous option, but in the end an option. Land ownership would have been claimed by the clans. The clans are the legal unit of the Heortling ownership system. Usually your clan will pay wergeld, not your tribe. Granted, that's chattel property, but grazing rights are negotiable in chattel terms, too.

And then there are the confederated cities of Sartar. The Enstalos, Lysang and Namolding clans now belong to the city confederations of Wilmskirk and Jonstown, and people from these clans may be able to claim (or be assigned) tribal property inside those cities. The former Kultain clans that were split off to Volsaxi overlordship lost their access to property inside Wilmskirk. Who inherited the former Kultain properties? Fazzur, or the Empire?

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Sacred Fields near the Earth temple is land that Ernalda has reserved to herself. Clearwine Fort itself has land under the title of the tribal king, the tribal council, temples, and the clans (principally to the Ernaldoring clan). These groups in turn may delegate land to households, individuals, - even to strangers and foreigners - although “title” to the land remains with the Earth temple or the tribe. Much of the legal disputes the tribal king hears involves disputes over land.

That's much of the Lawstaff myth procedure (not necessarily involving an actual lawstaff) rather than temple fiat, then.

Who presides over the never-ceasing disputes between the Orlmarth and the Greydogs, or the Varmandi and the Orlevings? Would the Greydogs defer to the Clearwine temple despite the family ties to the Orlmarth, or would the Varmandi trust the Greenstone edicts from within the Malani tribe?

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Clans traditionally mark the boundaries of their land with marker stones blessed by the local Earth priestess. Moving or otherwise damaging these stones without the approval of the Earth temple can result in retribution from members of the Babeester Gor cult.

What happens when different earth temples disagree about the validity of those stones? Where does Greenstone trump Clearwine, and vice versa?

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Private or “chattel” property is different. This property may be freely inherited, given away, invested, traded, loaned, squandered, or lost. The existence of chattel property is what makes a difference in the wealth of different families (hearths) even within a single household.

Who owns this chattel property? Individuals, steads, clans or the clan temples, or tribal temples (other than Ernalda)?

A freeman stead has to have one plow and eight oxen to pull it in teams. Not every freeman stead member needs to own one such set, though.

 

Orlanthi households are bound to be full of helmets and some weaponry in order to have fair representation at clan or tribal moots. 

 

When bringing back plunder from a leave of absence or bringing back a caravan guards salary, the returnee obviously owns this chattel property (and may already have made gifts in order to be let go on that absence). When returning from a sponsored raid, the sponsor of that raid owns the plunder, but is expected to distribute some to the participants (and some to the temples).

 

41 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Except he has to find land to graze them on! And that's owned in common, so will have to make arrangements as to where he can do that (promising the first fatted calf as an offering, etc.).

 

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Lots of wild land is still "owned by the goddess" and can be used by whoever can defend themselves and their use.

How close would this be towards the pastures already claimed by the clan herds?

Cleared pasture is at a premium in the valley bottoms, and it may be reserved for hay-making. There is a reason why much of the livestock is sent to distant meadows, often high up the hills where little to no clearing work is required.

[Tindalos]

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Resettlement of Dragon Pass tells a somewhat different story. Clans and tribes migrated into a region without much of a temple structure. Clans and tribes would establish temples for the lands they claimed, making contracts with local earth entities. The Black Spear clan led by Colymar made an arrangement with Tarndisi, then established the Clearwine temple (and possibly moved that into Brondagal only after its establishment).

Those local earth entities will be the granddaughters of Ernalda anyway, so it makes sense. Just another level of delegation. They go up to the local manifestation of the Earth Goddess, such as Tarndisi, and say "We want to live here, here's our sacrifices, may you ask your grandmother for permission?"

 

39 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What happens when different earth temples disagree about the validity of those stones? Where does Greenstone trump Clearwine, and vice versa?

I imagine that's where Divination comes in. The temples work together to ask the goddess, with prayers to help them accept her judgement.

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Those local earth entities will be the granddaughters of Ernalda anyway, so it makes sense. Just another level of delegation. They go up to the local manifestation of the Earth Goddess, such as Tarndisi, and say "We want to live here, here's our sacrifices, may you ask your grandmother for permission?"

 

I assume some rituals were done like that. 

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome, as the meme says. 

---- 

What's new to me here is mostly that 1) tribes seem more important than clans, although this might just be an artifact of how the text was written, and 2) Cattle being just another private good, unlike in some other prior Gloranthan representations(?) where cattle herds are to at least an extent a collective clan property doled out to households and also traded with outsiders for whatever reason. 

I think the clearest answer here is that there is a lot more diversity to how Orlanthi deal with this kind of stuff than four or five lines in some rulebook somewhere can properly get across. Although I admit I still have a soft spot for there being at least some flocks of cattle being held collectively by a clan (or temple community, etc.).

[pachristian]

On 4/28/2020 at 2:54 AM, Grievous said:

This is interesting when considering two clans/tribes at war over territory, as really they're fighting over a lease on Ernalda's land. Sure, it seems this can be resolved by just the clan/tribal rings coming to a conclusion on who gets to administer it, but it also seems likely that the Ernalda temples would get involved, especially if the fighting effects the administering and bounty of the land (however it's not like they're wholly removed from the politics). Kinda puts an interesting spin on the idea of women's peace weaving between clans/tribes.

Violence is always an option!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:49 AM, Tindalos said:

On 4/28/2020 at 6:06 AM, Joerg said:

What happens when different earth temples disagree about the validity of those stones? Where does Greenstone trump Clearwine, and vice versa?

I imagine that's where Divination comes in. The temples work together to ask the goddess, with prayers to help them accept her judgement.

 

That's one option.  And a good one for minor disputes.

But real history, such as Rome vs. Byzantium, Sunni vs. Shia, Rome vs. Henry VIII, etc. shows another, more likely, and more MGF option for major disputes.