Nevermet's Manirian Scratchpad

[John Biles]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Unless you're Dragon Pass, of course, in which case there's almost nothing EXCEPT Mary Sues.

That's kind of a legacy of how most of them, IIRC, started out as Heros in the Glorantha boardgames.  

On 5/31/2020 at 10:11 PM, Nevermet said:

 

• While the Rokari are reactionaries that wish to create a faith that is almost what the Brithini do, Castelein believed we can never go back, only forward.  We must continue to evolve and change, returning to a Golden Age will never work.  Instead, Innovation guided by Right Principles is the best idea.

There's a CS Lewis quote I couldn't find about how clinging to things will only make them curdle in your hands.  I think it's in Perelandra.

On 5/31/2020 at 10:11 PM, Nevermet said:

 

• He rejects the concept of devolution, the idea that the world has steadily gotten worse since before the Dawn. 
  • The world has gotten more dynamic and diverse with every action.  Creation has increased its wonders every Age.
  • With every Age, the overt presence of the Divine diminished, but that's simple because the world had become that uch more sustainable and glorious that He could recede and/or imbue everything with divinity
  • Malkion the Sacrifice was not a flawed attempt at saving the world that barely worked because He was betrayed.  Instead, it did exactly what Malkionaru wanted / needed it to do: usher in a new age.
    • Malkion was devolving his power to more Beings, not being ruined by Error.

Russian style nesting dolls would be a good metaphor here, with each layer bigger and fancier than the one inside it; the world grows outwards and upwards, containing the past, but being bigger and more impressive than the previous one.

Also, this feels Deist to me (not a criticism).  The Divine made the world but it's our job to make it a heaven or hell.

On 5/31/2020 at 10:11 PM, Nevermet said:

 

• In every Age, the Law changes, and we must constantly begin anew to understand the New Law.
  • Understanding the world that exists now is not a matter of logic, but of rhetoric and communicative rationality.  We must understand others in order to always build a New City
  • For Castelein, stagnation is a core error of thought.  The Godlearners thought they could understand everything by identifying mythological archetypes, but doing so is both inherently disrespectful and misunderstanding as it does not take the stories and meanings of others seriously.
     
• Castelein's power was in part from constantly living as Old Malkion did outside his citadel.  Never rest, never stop, always meet new people, learn from from them, teach them.  Exchange is central to this.

You call them sophists later, but they strike me as pragmatists -- you figure out what works and you worry about WHY later.  That's how social science operates - observe, then figure out the patterns from what you observed.  (Then discover things that don't fit your theory and you cry).  And a certain amount of 'our perception is the only reality we can know'.

I now have an image of Tolkien shouting at the God-Learners (He hated allegory and wanted people to take stories on their own terms, inside the reality they create.  Tolkien is kind of weird because he mixed Post-Modernism and Traditional Catholicism.)

On 5/31/2020 at 10:11 PM, Nevermet said:

 

• Castelein's heirs are essentially sophists
  • Rhetoric over logic
  • At its most crass this becomes language games and manipulation to "win" arguments and negotiations
    • The party line is that they're moving toward more understanding
    • There is a more radical heresy that sees the wealth of teh Trader Princes as a perversion of Castelein's teachings.
       
• Castelein did not leave a system for achieving illumination
  • He assumed if someone wanted it, they'd find the "gaps" in his writings and seek out new sources of truth to fill them, and find illumination eventually.

 

Illumination would probably lead to some Trader-Prince trying to turn all of Maniria into a gold coin, anyway.

Sophist doesn't strike me quite right, though thinking about how people trained in Greece and Rome to win arguments by understanding how their opponents thought...

Anyway, this is an interesting approach.  I see it almost as something where sorcery works by changing that shared perception which is the only reality we can know anyway.  They don't worry if they're changing the 'real' world, because you can never reach that real world, but you can change the shared world of ideas.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your ideas.

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Those are fair points, though what does that mean about the nature of their worldview in general? Are they just venerating a Hero for the sake of tradition (and profit), almost like a pseudo-clan ancestor? Are they Henotheists who view Issaries as the truest identity of the Invisible God and engage in some loosey-goosey theism? 

What's wrong with worshipping an ancestor?  A lot of Seshnegi worship Ancestors and don't consider themselves any less Malkioni for it.

Issaries as the Truest Identity of the Invisible God doesn't work because Issaries is not that big a God (unlike Orlanth or Yelm).

What I think you have to understand is that the Malkioni are not Malkioni because they believe in the Invisible God.  They consider themselves to be Malkioni because they have Wizards who mediate between themselves and the Cosmos at large.  Their religious conduct is governed largely on what the Wizards say is proper - if the Wizard tells them that  worshipping the local earth goddess is fine then they will quite happily do so.  As the Trader Princes are Safelstran in origin, they will regard the concept of not worshipping the Gods to be baffling nonsense to such an extent that even their wizards will worship the Gods (there's another philosophical reason for the attitude of the wizards but it's unimportant to the general rank-and-file Malkioni).

 

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Or rather, perhaps more specific, what do the Trader Princes' Zzaburi (provided they have any, and I'm presuming they do) believe? When a (talar) Trader Prince family member comes to his Zzaburi, what does the Zzaburi tell him?

It depends on what type of Wizard the Trader Prince has hired.  The relationship between a Trader Prince and his magician is rather commercial: the wizard casts spells for the benefit of the Trader Prince and his household and the Trader Prince gives him a lot of stuff.  The Wizard might be Arkati, Rokari, Brithini or even Ramalian - the Trader Prince doesn't really care.  

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I have to admit I consider the chaotic aftermath of the God Learner collapse, coupled with the pluralistic and heterodox Safelster would open the idea for someone like Castelain, regardless of caste, to act as a philosopher of sorts, whether through complex mediations, or indeed through "saintly"/heroic example. 

But he's not described as a philosopher but a trading hero.  

[metcalph]

34 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I'm going to be completely honest: Castelein's beliefs and magic are largely undefined.  I am choosing, based on my personal preferences, to keep him primarily sorcerous in his orientation.  I fully accept this is not the only way one could go, but it's how I want to go.  The question, for me, is given that editorial choice on my part, how can I best "fit" Castelein into Maniria and Glorantha as it currently exists according to the canonical Guide & Sourcebook.

A lot depends on what exactly you mean by sorcerous.  If you mean knowledge of sorcery spells and the like then not even the Seshnegi nobility would be considered sorcerous.  If you mean they have a wizard  hanging around casting spells and such like then yes, they are sorcerous.

There is practical God Learning in which a Wizard casts spells on a HeroQuest to tip the scales so to speak.  Thus a Trader Prince might be laden down with Rune Magics despite being rather worldly and having little interest in the Gods.  Since Maniria is rather fragmented and disorganized, any such magical paths would be limited in effect (ie nobody is going to become a near hero).

[metcalph]

21 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

We know the Henotheism practiced by the Trader Princes and their philosophers view "Fair Exchange" as the First Action. 

I don't think the passage in the Middle Sea Empire should be considered canon any more.  I doubt the Trader Princes have a coherent body of philosophy and moreveover I do not believe they could re-interpret the First Action in a heterodox manner.

21 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

From the POV of the average Manirian, gobbledygook about an "Invisible God" that is somehow "behind" Orlanth is nutty city talk.

Not even the Trader Princes would be at all interested in discussions about the natuire of an Invisible God.  That's wizard talk and nothing to do with them.  It's like expecting a CEO of Bethesda to have firm and detailed knowledge of the lore of the Elder Scrolls.  

 

[Leingod]

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I don't think the passage in the Middle Sea Empire should be considered canon any more.  I doubt the Trader Princes have a coherent body of philosophy and moreveover I do not believe they could re-interpret the First Action in a heterodox manner.

Actually, for now it's definitely canon, as it's in the Guide to Glorantha (volume 1, page 352):

Quote

The cult of Issaries is especially favored by the Trader Princes as the patron of trade. Every city along the Manirian Road has its temple-market to Issaries and the local Malkioni philosophers posit that Equal Exchange is the First Principle.  

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Leingod

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Blood Over Gold had 2 broad cultures: Trader Princes and Wenelians.  The Guide, OTOH,  just has "Manirians" (though with some important subcategories). It's important to work out a coherent culture, therefore, which is primarily Orlanthi, but has a Western influence.

According to the Guide, the Manirians are a type of Orlanthi culture with a "thin veneer" of Western culture, especially in the cities.  We know they worship Orlanth and Ernalda, like most Orlanthi, but they also revere Mralot, Heler, Harand, and Entru.  We know the Henotheism practiced by the Trader Princes and their philosophers view "Fair Exchange" as the First Action.  Trader Prince henotheism, therefore, is not an element of daily life for most Manirians. 

Are those two approaches really that different from one another?

Caste is a concept that allows different cultures to coexist under a shared umbrella culture. The coexistence of Malkioni(zed) overlords and Orlanthi peasants is a fairly common occurrance in Glorantha, only absent where troll or Dara Happan/Lunar influence is greater.

The princes are a privileged caste, possibly subdivided, possibly unified (see below), having a quite different culture from the rest of the population that makes up the majority. This culture will be shared by their immediate servants or agents, at least to a degree, and some will be imitated by the "peasant" Orlanthi nobility.

4 hours ago, Nevermet said:

From the POV of the average Manirian, gobbledygook about an "Invisible God" that is somehow "behind" Orlanth is nutty city talk.  To talk about the Invisible God (whether it is called Malkion, Makan, Ashara, or something else) is a signal that you're Urban, which is a strange designation indeed in Maniria.  I don't expect any ceremonies to the Invisible God in the hills, only in the Cities.  Castelein is probably remembered as a weird Hero of Issaries, which probably is just fine with Castelein.

The Issaries cult has had ties to the Talars of the Malkioni already in Cults of Prax, where it is mentioned that Garzeen wooed Fenela, daughter of Talar Froalar and sister to Prince Hrestol. The tasks of a Talar besides exercising the command are administration and trade, both covered by the Issaries cult.

Two Lightbringer cults were particularly valued by the God Learners: Lhankor Mhy and Issaries. Both deities, for all their confessed Celestial Court ancestry, may have come to Orlanth from the West. As may Eurmal.

If you are a newcomer to Glorantha and read the Lightbringer's Journey, it will tell you how Orlanth is starting out from his tribe, at first with barbarian companions like his charioteer, but later more or less on foot, meeting foreigners who become his companions on his quest to bring back his wife. Oh, and the sun god, if that was required to get back his wife.

I remember that I was surprised to read all those myths that have the Lightbringers (other than Flesh Man and Ginna Jar) happily share the Storm Village with Orlanth and Ernalda. That was not how I had learned about the other Lightbringer deities. That's not how they were presented in Cults of Prax (which I got after RQ3 Gods of Glorantha and RQ3 Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars, and RQ3 Troll Pak) or Cults of Terror.

Then came King of Dragon Pass. We learned about quite a few more myths about the Orlanthi, expanding on what had been hinted at in King of Sartar. All of a sudden, the Lightbringers had been companions of Orlanth long before Ernalda was "not dead, but sleeping". Only we met Lhankor Knowing, or Harst Spare Grain. Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe then flooded us with names of these deities - every feat of a deity suddenly received a named subcult. Which was confusing, over the top, and was discontinued already in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes.

Now it has been stated (e.g. in Arcane Lore, which is currently at discount) that deities have multiple presence - even still living heroes who receive worship do. This makes it possible for Orlanth to have know Issaries and the other Lightbringers for the entirety of his kingship and still meet the Lightbringers Issaries and Lhankor Mhy for the first time. Or you could try and understand the Cults of Prax article on Time in Glorantha, especially God Time. That one isn't easy, but whatever you take on from reading it will be enough to run a Gloranthan game. It may take repeated study of it to start creating Gloranthan myths that last outside of your own gaming table.

TLDR: There is no problem claiming that Issaries and Lhankor Mhy are already somewhat Malkioni in origin.

4 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I don't think the Trader Princes have castes.

That would a) be very un-Malkioni and b) them giving up to be of the Talar caste.

Talars are the administrators, including (at least foreign) trade. That's the Issaries role (next to the ruler role), and I don't think that the Trader Princes take much if any hand in actually ruling the surrounding tribes. The relationship might compare to the authority the Only Old One used to have over the Kingdom of Night.

It would be a different thing to say "most Trader Princes are men-of-all". They might have cheapened that term all the way to it being of little distinction, but being of all castes has about the same effect as having no castes.

This variant of Hrestol's revelation would be highly heretical to the Rokari Watchers, of course, but then the same would apply to the abandonment of castes. Likewise any dabbling with the local deities. Good thing that the Watchers are far away, and that there are bloodthirsty barbarians surrounding your fortresses (to avoid the mediaevally associated term castle).

[Nevermet]

crap, I stepped in it.  Sorry.

I really need to not post after 11PM my time.

Be back in a bit with collected thoughts. sigh 😶

[metcalph]

On the question of whether the Trader Princes have caste, one should remember they are Safelstrans with their own marriage customs (Belemor and Ulemor).  A way to play this would be to say that only those who have a proven descent through Belemor marriages from another Trader Prince can themselves become a Trader Prince.  Everybody else cannot inherit Castelain's good name and so would be ineligible to preside over his worship ceremonies.  

[Nevermet]

I'm getting back into this thread today.

 

I got a bit of writer's block, and I hope to chip away at that a little.

 

Thanks to everyone who took time to help me exactly how I asked for it: pointing out what setting ideas seemed to work and which wasn't didn't (at least with "canonical" Glorantha).

 

Be back later... I need to do real work for a while  

 

 

[Nevermet]

As I said before taking a step back from the thread, I really stepped in it, in the sense that I stopped making careful arguments about things.  So, I'll try to fix that.  And again, thanks for the feedback, especially from Metcalph & Joerg over the last page.  A lot of what I'm about to say is a repetition of their comments, and building on them.

 

To get back into the thread, I'm going to try to organize and distill the last 2 pages of discussion, focusing primarily in this post on the question of how are the Trader Princes are "Western."  

 

The Trader Princes are, according to the Guide, "hereditary nobility of merchants, judges, and priests" of the Manirian tribes. The Manirians (as I'll be using the term) are the Orlanthi tribes, and IMG, they include the Bastis, Ditali, Dokali, Nimistori, and Swarz.  While the Manirians are a tangled mess, I'm more focused at the moment on the Trader Princes.  Thus, other groups in Maniria such as the Pelushi or the Caratan are not Manirians.

Effectively, the Trader Princes Talari and Zzuburi (many people in the thread have said this).  Given the description, as well as the image of a cloistered elite in massive fortresses they call cities, The Trader Princes do not have 2 separate hereditary lines for rulers and wizards.  Rather, it's one population with a shared lineage, with decisions being made individually on the vocation of a particular Trader Prince(ss).  

 

The Rulers 

The Trader Princes occupy a position of power based on two pillars.  First, all diplomacy and trade beyond the tribe must go through the Prince.  By law, a Nimistori chief could not sell food to Kaxtorplose in exchange for artisan craftsgoods, unless the trade was approved by the recognized Trader Prince.  Second, the Prince is the peaceful arbiter between the clans. If two Ditali clans are having a dispute, King Tarvel or one of his representatives goes to investigate and make a ruling.

The Trader Princes do not have the ability to make war, only protect trade caravans.  This can be very blurry, but if a tribe decides a war is needed, the elect a temporary warlord.  Greymane was elected warlord of the Solanthi after the Opening created an economic crisis where an intricate network of debts collapsed.  Greymane's solution was to ally with the Ditali and plunder Esrolia.  It was so successful that he began to think of how to make his position permanent and create a dynasty of rulers over the Solanthi and the Manirians more broadly.

Culturally, the Trader Princes are a strange lot.  They have riches and knowledge from places far, far away.  And often have a superficial understanding of those cultures as well.  At least after the Opening, however, most have not been beyond their tribal territories.  And since Greymane, they are often loathe to leave the cities at all.

 

The Wizards

Here is what we know about Trader Prince Zzuburi: " local Malkioni philosophers posit that Equal Exchange is the First Principle." (p. 352)  Thaaat's... about it.

Here is my tentative claim: As Metcalph points out, Castelein the Traveller was a Trader Hero, not a philosopher.  He likely did not leave behind a carefully constructed argument of systematic theology.  Instead, he probably left behind the Gloranthan equivalent of "Business success books".  The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Heroquesters or something.  Practical advice, combined with commentary and cryptic comments.  However, one of the things he kept saying was that Equal Exchange is the First Principle.

There is no consensus what that means among the Trader Prince Zzuburi, and over the last 4 or 5 centuries a tradition of commentary has emerged where people try to analyze and systematize Castelein.  As pointed out by others, however, claiming the 1st principle is equal exchange will make a lot of sorcerers burst out loud laughing, except Rokari, who will burn whoever said that whenever possible.

The Trader Princes are very aware they have never been (and now it looks like never will be) a mighty empire, so they're obsessed with trying to push Castelein as a distinct and powerful founding hero.  As a result, the amount of ridiculous theorizing about him is over the top.  Nevertheless, the Trader Prince Zzuburi are very much the curators of their distinct culture.  

 

(Lack of) Other Castes

The Guide is very clear that the Trader Princes do not have a Horali warrior caste, relying on a combination of Pralori mercenaries and housecarls from the clans.

Similarly, it seems reasonable, as others have pointed out in this thread, that the Manirians are effectively the Dronars, though nobody would call them that.

 

Further Blurring

I think the category of "The Trader Princes" is more culturally institutionalized within Maniria than a distinct Talari caste vs Zzuburi caste.  However, the Trader Princes themselves are aware their wizards (or philosophers or sophists) are a different breed than their merchant-judges.  The avereage Trader Prince will talk about the Trader Princes as a group ruling over or "guiding" the Manirians, and the Manirians will talk about the Trader Princes with their gold and walls.

 

 

 

[Nevermet]

Assuming what I just wrote holds water (praise Heler), then I have at least 2 questions I'm not completely sure about.

 

1. What are the religious and magical expectations on the merchant-judges (Talars) of the Trader Princes?  
   • Are the hopeful kings among them initiates of Orlanth?  Of Issaries?  My current thinking is that there are much fewer explicit requirements than, say, among the Heortlings.  That said, I'm not sure what the tendencies are.
2. What is the origin of the Malkioni influences within Trader Prince culture?  For most of this thread, I have been assuming (and still assume) the answer is it comes from Safelster.  However, that has some problems.  Castelein is most likely from Helby, which is a kingdom with little tradition in western religion or culture.  Rather it is a kingdom where people worship Ehilm the Sun and the white horses that pull him across the sky.  The other possibility is that it is an artifact of Slontos survivors, but this has even more problems it seems to me.  Slontan refugees taken in by the Manirians would not be in a position, nor would they have the motivation likely, to turn their barbarian saviours toward a God that just forsook them.  So... I'm not sure.
   • Now.... along the New coast, the New Fens, Caratan, Ramalia, Kaxtorplose, and the old families of Highwater.... their relationship with Slontos will be very different than the Manirians as a whole.

[Nevermet]

On 6/2/2020 at 12:36 AM, John Biles said:

Also, this feels Deist to me (not a criticism).  The Divine made the world but it's our job to make it a heaven or hell

Using the terms loosely, all Malkioni religion is something akin to deist.  The Invisible God created the universe by creating the runes.  The proper way to engage reality is not to make sacrifices to runes or negotiate with them, but to control them according to their rational order. (Actually, given the myth about Malkion the Sacrifice, I guess it would actually accurate to call the Malkioni pandeistic)

The wrinkle is of course that the runes developed minds of their own, and claimed to be worthy of sacrifices and appeasement.  In the most hardline versions of Malkionism, that is rejected as badwrong (Rokarism, the Brithini).  Other strains have a more pragmatic approach.

On 6/2/2020 at 12:36 AM, John Biles said:

Anyway, this is an interesting approach.  I see it almost as something where sorcery works by changing that shared perception which is the only reality we can know anyway.  They don't worry if they're changing the 'real' world, because you can never reach that real world, but you can change the shared world of ideas.

This is pretty much my approach for Trader Prince Wizards who attempt to understand wizardry through Castelein.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Nevermet

[Sir_Godspeed]

40 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Using the terms loosely, all Malkioni religion is something akin to deist.  The Invisible God created the universe by creating the runes.  The proper way to engage reality is not to make sacrifices to runes or negotiate with them, but to control them according to their rational order. (Actually, given the myth about Malkion the Sacrifice, I guess it would actually accurate to call the Malkioni pandeistic)

The wrinkle is of course that the runes developed minds of their own, and claimed to be worthy of sacrifices and appeasement.  In the most hardline versions of Malkionism, that is rejected as badwrong (Rokarism, the Brithini).  Other strains have a more pragmatic approach.

Somewhat of a mix of deism and emanationism, not entirely unlike Gnosticism (which is perhaps fitting since the Malkioneranism tradition is heavily based on Gnosticism, if I've understood it correctly.) 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Somewhat of a mix of deism and emanationism, not entirely unlike Gnosticism (which is perhaps fitting since the Malkioneranism tradition is heavily based on Gnosticism, if I've understood it correctly.) 

Irensavalism, which makes a distinction between the Hidden Mover and the Demiurge, is "gnostic".

Rokarism and the Brithini, less so.  IMHO, etc.

 

EDIT: What I know about emanationism does seem similar to most forms of Malkionism, yes.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Nevermet

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Assuming what I just wrote holds water (praise Heler), then I have at least 2 questions I'm not completely sure about.

 

1. What are the religious and magical expectations on the merchant-judges (Talars) of the Trader Princes?  
   • Are the hopeful kings among them initiates of Orlanth?  Of Issaries?  My current thinking is that there are much fewer explicit requirements than, say, among the Heortlings.  That said, I'm not sure what the tendencies are.

I daresay they would worship Issaries and Castelain.  Particularly adventurous types among them would also worship Orlanth but that's not their main goia.

6 hours ago, Nevermet said:

1. What is the origin of the Malkioni influences within Trader Prince culture?  For most of this thread, I have been assuming (and still assume) the answer is it comes from Safelster.  However, that has some problems.  Castelein is most likely from Helby, which is a kingdom with little tradition in western religion or culture.  Rather it is a kingdom where people worship Ehilm the Sun and the white horses that pull him across the sky. 

Ehilm is a Malkioni deity.  Thus you can't use his worship to argue that the people of Helby are not Safelstrans.  Even in the history maps, Helby manages to be part of:

• The Dark Empire
• The New Dangim Alliance
• The Estali.

Which makes them pretty Safelstran to me.  Likewise in the population tables (Guide p375) Helby is listed under Safelstrans as opposed to the Orlanthi of Lankst or Delela.

 

 

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Nevermet said:

This is pretty much my approach for Trader Prince Wizards who attempt to understand wizardry through Castelein.

Castelain works fine as a trading hero of Issaries without wizards having to use him as a basis for sorcery.  The Trader Princes would be happy with hired wizards who understand and appreciate gold rather than wizardsw who claim to be on their side and repeat jargon they can't understand.

[Nevermet]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Ehilm is a Malkioni deity.  Thus you can't use his worship to argue that the people of Helby are not Safelstrans.  Even in the history maps, Helby manages to be part of:

• The Dark Empire
• The New Dangim Alliance
• The Estali.

Which makes them pretty Safelstran to me.  Likewise in the population tables (Guide p375) Helby is listed under Safelstrans as opposed to the Orlanthi of Lankst or Delela.

As I was thinking the best interpretation was that the western elements came from Safelster, this is fine by me

All I was trying to do was acknowledge the syncretic situation in Safelster.  Or rather, the syncretic situations, since it seems like every town has its own combination of Malkioni, Theyalan, Enerali, and Arkati worldviews.  Fully aware Drom & Helby are in that syncretistic soup.

[Nevermet]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

I daresay they would worship Issaries and Castelain.  Particularly adventurous types among them would also worship Orlanth but that's not their main goia.

Oh, they definitely worship Issaries.  As for Castelein, given relics from his body are housed in temples to the Invisible God, he's definitely honoured somehow.  Veneration isn't a thing any more, or I would say that.

 

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Castelain works fine as a trading hero of Issaries without wizards having to use him as a basis for sorcery.  The Trader Princes would be happy with hired wizards who understand and appreciate gold rather than wizardsw who claim to be on their side and repeat jargon they can't understand.

I think that the Guide's depiction of the Trader Princes goes beyond hiring some wizards.  Every city has a temple to the Invisible God, the Trader Princes are explicitly henotheists, and there is a local tradition of Malkioni philosophy (as small and decentralized as it may be).  I agree that the wizards are more practical than abstract due to their situation, but there seems to be some sort of institutionalized field of Trader Prince Wizard-Priests.  If there is, then it would stand to reason that making sense of Castelein (and holding rituals at his tombs) would be the basis of the local tradition.

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I think that the Guide's depiction of the Trader Princes goes beyond hiring some wizards.  Every city has a temple to the Invisible God, the Trader Princes are explicitly henotheists, and there is a local tradition of Malkioni philosophy (as small and decentralized as it may be).  I agree that the wizards are more practical than abstract due to their situation, but there seems to be some sort of institutionalized field of Trader Prince Wizard-Priests.  If there is, then it would stand to reason that making sense of Castelein (and holding rituals at his tombs) would be the basis of the local tradition.

It's also more fun, imho.

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's also more fun, imho.

I think it's obvious I agree with you , but that's not a sufficient argument by itself.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Nevermet

[Nevermet]

BTW, I think I'm going to shift gears over the weekend, toward either Kaxtorplose or the Pralori.  

 

If I do, should I start a new thread or keep it all here?

[M Helsdon]

On 6/18/2020 at 10:04 AM, metcalph said:

Ehilm is a Malkioni deity. 

Whilst the Westerners adopted this name for the 'Sun God', its usage among the Enerali, the Pendali, and probably the Enjoreli, is suggestive that the Westerners adopted the name used by the natives of the mainland. For example, the Enerali knew of the conflict between Ehilm and Erulat over the hand of the Great Green Lady before the Theyalans arrived.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Nevermet said:

If I do, should I start a new thread or keep it all here?

Whichever you find easier to sort and sift through. 🙂

[Nevermet]

I think I'll make another thread then.

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Whilst the Westerners adopted this name for the 'Sun God', its usage among the Enerali, the Pendali, and probably the Enjoreli, is suggestive that the Westerners adopted the name used by the natives of the mainland. For example, the Enerali knew of the conflict between Ehilm and Erulat over the hand of the Great Green Lady before the Theyalans arrived.

The Enerali were originally Malkioni having been enslaved by the Mostali before their liberation by the Vingkotlings in the Storm Age.  Now you might argue that there was some point in which Ehilm was unknown to the Malkioni of the Land of Logic (Early Golden Age perhaps).  I consider that immaterial because IMO the Malkioni had long considered Ehil to be the Sun in the Storm Age.