Aeolian Shrine/Temple vs Wind Temple

[10baseT]

So I’ve asked many questions about the Aeolians and thank you all. You’re really shed some light. There is still one notion I can’t seem to grasp. What is the difference between the Aeolian house of worship vs the Wind Temple (Orlanth)? I assume they’re different buildings in a town that has a good amount of Aeolians.

The Aeolians are henotheist and many (nobles and commoners) worship Orlanth (the Invisible God being too remote to worship directly). They become rune lords and priest and most likely preside over the wind temple... just like their Orlanthi hill brethren.

The Aeolian priest however are the sorcerors. Well, what do they do if the Invisible God is too remote to directly worhips? (Maybe except for them). Then if most others are worshipping in the wind temple, would there be an Aeolian temple in town as well? (which may sit empty for the most part because everyone is in the wind temple). (Vizel, Mt Passant, etc.)

Thank you in advance for helping me understand, much appreciated.
 

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, 10baseT said:

The Aeolian priest however are the sorcerors. Well, what do they do if the Invisible God is too remote to directly worhips?

It's unclear currently how or if the practice is actually distinct, or if there would even be a different temple.  Personally, my thought is that there are the normal temples to the deities and the wizard-priests lead services there.  They also have a distinct temple where they retire to for study, discussion, meditation, etc. that is specific to the Invisible God, but not open to the general congregation.

In the Aeolian practice, the deities are the emanations of the Invisible God (the intercessors if you will).  Therefore, prayers and interactions with the deities are the pathway to the Invisible God - mortals cannot reach the Invisible God directly, but the deities which came out of the Invisible God can.  

The model that I've seen from Jeff is that the wizard-priests are the right ones to lead the services to the emanations (Orlanth, Ernalda, etc.).  So instead of Rune Priests, the wizard-priests (aka sorcerers) would lead/conduct the Worship service.  They will use sorcerous spells instead of divine ones to engage with the deity, or to perhaps summon the deity or a manifestation of the Runic powers, and then follow the proper techniques to bless the congregation.  

I don't know if this model supports the notion of Rune Points for the worshippers though.  My supposition is that the higher deities have some mixture of interaction.  Commoners can be initiated, and perhaps even become God-talkers (this applies only to worship of Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal, and their paired consorts, who are the personifications/emanations of the Creator - all other deities are not emanations and therefore below the wizard-priests and nobles and will follow normal conventions).  Nobles can be initiated into these deities and certain paths (i.e. Rune Lord such as Orlanth Rex) are open to them, but there is no Rune Priest in the Aeolian society.  Wizard-priests replace Rune Priests for these specific and relevant deities.

[Kloster]

For me, as I understand it, the temples are the same.

[John Biles]

This is all heresy that doesn't fit the new model of how Malkionism works, but you may find it interesing:

Aeolian Church

(This still under Construction A LOT)

In the beginning was Makan, the foundation of reality, the mind-which-creates, and Chaos, the sea of endless change. We cannot know and need not care how long Makan dwelt upon his thoughts before making the world. All we know is this. He gazed upon the Chaos; it defied him and he set out to be the master of it. In the First Action, he defined Truth, the First Rune. He applied Truth and banished the lies of Chaos, creating land and sea and sky by forcing endless change into the stability of a single truth. This is the First Action. Then he defined other things and strengthened the basic frame of the world by creation of the Runes, further differentiating everything and laying down the laws by which everything acts. In the Third Action, he breathed into some of his creations, awakening their minds. Some he especially blessed, the Saints, who would guide the others. The Saints gathered all who would follow them and created Danmalstan, the land most blessed of the Creator. The rest remained, creating other kingdoms and tinkering with the power of the runes; some transformed themselves into Elves, Trolls, Dragonnewts and so on.

For a time, there was a golden age, and the Saints ascended to dwell with Makan. But without their guidance, the people fell into sin, especially those who followed the foolish Vadel. In other lands, demons entered, calling themselves spirits or gods and swayed others and those who had abandoned their humanity plotted deep plans to make their Rune dominant. Thus the Fourth Action became known as Decline. And then Chaos itself broke into the world, the way opened by foolish men and krjalki.

In the Fifth Action, Malkion came, inspired by the Creator, trying to turn the tide of disaster. In their fear, the people called this Destruction but we know its true name. Sacrifice. Malkion let himself be slain to save the world by opening the way to Solace, shaming the gods and spirits and Chaos itself into retreating and giving men hope. Even his slayer, the atheist sorceror Zzabur was so moved, he spent much of his strength returning the Sun to the sky. Even as this happened, Malkion's son Hrestol returned from the Underworld with the Secret of Joy of the Heart, aided by the Lightbringers.

But now Zzabur tried to assert that everyone must follow *his* rules. He slew Hrestol who tried to stop him, but not before Hrestol taught many disciples the secret of Joy of the Heart. Some disciples gathered his teachings into the Book of Hrestol, and our founder, Aeolus, added his own Meditations to it. He taught us the art by which we bond to a Patron Saint to protect our souls from the Lies of Vadel and to wield the power of the Invisible God. Now began the Sixth Movement, the Age of Joy of the Heart.

Unfortunately, in time, many Malkioni became the corrupt God-Learners, who delved too deeply into the mysteries of Chaos, failing to understand that the author of their 'Abiding Book' was Vadel himself, and so they destroyed themselves and freed the sea to rage against the land again, destroying much of Seshnela and closing the seas to us until Saint Dormal manifested himself and ended the Closing.

It is to be noted that Rokar the Prophet was another mask of Vadel, spreading lies and corrupting Seshnela to wickedness. We know this because of his ties to the 'Sharp Abiding Book'. Anything drawn from the Abiding Book is clearly evil. Their efforts to subjugate us bear further witness to this. Further, the Red Emperor now sits in the throne of the Wicked Emperor in the North and seeks to enslave us all. Many fear that the Seventh and final Movement, Apocalypse, is about to begin.

Castes

In Danmalstan, there was a rigid caste system, but we have found it no longer works. Yet, adherence to certain laws grants the blessing of the creator. Everyone is born into a caste system, but those who dislike their birth rank, or who aspire to become men-of-all may undergo a holy test at age 14 and every 7 years thereafter. Those who pass it may change caste; those who spend at least 7 years of adulthood in every caste may try the test to become men-of-all, our greatest heroes and leaders. They are rare. Perhaps one in 100,000 or less manage to do this and few even try. About one in five hundred who try to change caste die; most fail the test. But you can keep trying if you don't die.

The Castes:

• Governors: The highest caste, they rule over the others. They act as generals in war but do not actually fight.
• Priests: They study the ways of the Saints and the Grimoires of wizardry. They ensure the people gain the blessings of the Invisible God.
• Soldiers: Soldiers fight and make and fix weapons. Many soldiers provide support services to the actual front-line soldiers.
• Makers: Everyone else is a Maker, though some Makers do things like transport goods. They make up the bulk of the population.

Magic

Every believer must attend weekly church services on RestDay? (day seven). During the service, the faithful pray and read from the Book of Hrestol and the Meditations of Aeolus, experiencing the stories told from it, culminating in the Joy of the Heart, for half the day. The rest of the day is spent in rest and prayer.

Part of the service is a divine blessing which augments his or her ability to perform common magic. Anyone who has attended weekly church can also benefit from the blessing radiated by the local Church. This typically focuses around a single rune and is most commonly the Water, Plant, or Earth Runes.

At age 14, you undergo a holy rite in which you live out stories of the holy texts and choose a Patron Saint, who will guide you henceforth. You gain a blessing from your Saint and now can learn Common Magic appropriate to your Caste.

Everyone learns Common Magic appropriate to their Caste; some join Fraternities and Sororities which teach spell magic appropriate to their caste. The Holy Society of Saint Barnabas, for example, teaches agricultural spell magic to its members. These societies require 30% of your time; their leaders gain even greater power, but 70% of their time is spent on holy activities. Priests have the broadest magical power of the four castes.

In the other castes, many never progress beyond Common Magic, but in the Priestly Caste, most do so, for obvious reasons. One who can only do Common Magic is an Acolyte, who assists the Priests and studies the mysteries. After passing a Heroquest, they can move up to Priest status, devoting 30% of their time to devotionals and beginning study of Grimoires, from which they learn spells. Eventually, they can become a Saint-Caller, devoting 70% of their time to holy work and learning to call upon their patron Saint to duplicate their great deeds.

The Church

The Clergy: Every village has a Shrine to the Invisible God and the Saints. Every village's Shrine is basically independent, though some have more influence than others and they hold Synods periodically where delegates meet and discuss issues of mutual interest. Every village has at least a Priest and a few Acolytes. Most have a Saint-Caller, a Priest, and a few Acolytes. Only the bigger communities have more than one Saint-Caller.

Gender: Both men and women can rise to the top in the Church, but it's rare to be a different gender than your chosen Saint.

The Saints

During the Third Action, the Invisible God especially blessed certain of the new Men with his power, the Saints. They watch over all of us even now; every person has a special bond to one of the Saints. A handful of later people have also been blessed by the Creator with Sainthood. Perhaps even you, one day, if you pray and obey the Creator's laws.

(I can post the Saints if people are interested; they're a mixture of adapted Orlanthi gods and Malkioni saints.  But this eats up a loooot of space)

Wizards

There are no schools of wizardry outside the church, but the Church practices wizardry through the orders.

Notable Stories / Heroquests

I have a lot more of these, but I'm cutting most of them, because, again, space.  

• Esmerelda Sets The Household In Order: It was a quiet day in Storm Season and Esmerelda decided it was time to get things organized before Sacred Time came. The first thing she found was her daughters were busy flirting with boys instead of ensuring the work of the house was done. If the leaders didn't set an example for the people, who would? So she chased off the boys and sent her daughters to organize everything. Then she went to see their Priest, but he was busy trying to help pull a wagon out of a ditch, which was not his job. So she found Saint Uriel and got him to pull the wagon out of the ditch, while the Priest went to go make preparations for Sacred Time and to pray for the people. Then she found her husband, Saint Orlando, and his friends busy getting drunk and partying in the Great Hall instead of patrolling the borders to watch for trouble, for Danmalstan was facing increasing, strange attacks. Once she rousted them to their duties, she turned to see if the costumes had been prepared for Sacred Time, but the costume makers had turned to doing the rites themselves while their Priest was off doing other people's jobs. So she assured them the Priest had returned to his duties, so they could return to theirs. But then a great rainstorm came down because the Makers had bungled the rite. She got the Priest, her Husband Saint Orlando, and one of the Costume Makers. The Costume Maker garbed Saint Orlando as the Great Wind, the Rune of Air, and the Priest prayed to aid the illusion and then he ordered the storm to leave, empowered by her magics, and the storm departed. The sky was clear and blue and beautiful and all things now were in their proper place and playing their proper roles. And so she went to take a well-earned nap. This is used to initiate Priestesses sealed to Esmerelda, to bring order when the community is in chaos, and to aid people in performing their roles in society well. It can also be used to control the Weather.
• Gerlant's Honorable War: Assigned to defend the borders of Danmalstan during the Lightbringers Quest, he fought honorably, letting nothing turn him aside from his duty. From the North, an army of Ice Trolls tried to break into Danmalstan, but he led the defense against them in the Great Northern Pass, for his honor was shown by his valor. From the South, the Dragon-Boaters tried to bribe him to open the way for them, but he refused, for his honor could not be bought with money. The Beast-Riders invaded, burning and pillaging; he defeated them and accepted their surrender without killing them or enslaving them, for he fought with honor. The Green Amazons tried to bribe him with beautiful women, but his honor could not be overturned by lust. During the Long Night, he needed sleep so badly, but his honor kept him awake. Vadel tempted him to make himself King, but his honor sustained him. And when his strength finally failed him; he fought to the end, buying time for Danmalstan's people to escape. His wife had gone with the Lightbringers, so he could not be healed and he died, but the Invisible God took him up into Solace at that moment, for he had always fought honorably. Now he defends Solace, ensuring nothing can ever taint it. This is used to initiate Priests sealed to Gerlant, to seal honorable deals, and to strengthen Soldiers to fight on in defense of the community.

What is Sinful?

Vadel introduced the ten corruptions:

1.     Disobedience to the Laws of Malkion: Only Makan deserves your worship, but if you have to fake worshiping other gods to avoid being slaughtered, he will understand. Devotion is more important than specific laws. Survival trumps clinging to past ideas, for the dead have no ideas.

2.     Deceit: Never lie to fellow believers; never violate a contract or cheat on a mercantile deal. Anyone who threatens your survival does not deserve honesty; tell them what they want to hear.

3.     Greed: The accumulation of wealth is fine as long as it is done honestly. Wealth by theft, fraud, violence, and the like is greed and condemned. You must give generously to those in need.

4.     Gluttony: Avoid gluttony, so that in rich times you can save up for the lean times. Holy feasts, however, honor the Saints and Invisible God, but should be open to all believers.

5.     Theft: Do not steal from any believer or any non-believer who is not at war with you; taking the property of those trying to kill you is only your due.

6.     Arrogance: Never hesitate to stoop in order to conquer. Pride only gets you in trouble.

7.     Hatred: You have a right of vengeance, yet those who are consumed by anger become monsters. Think carefully and avoid letting it consume your life. In some circumstances, the Officials may authorize you to carry out vengeance and then you should show them the wrath of the Invisible God.

8.     Incest: Sex with anyone more closely related to you than second cousin is absolutely forbidden. Those who are married are forbidden to have sex without anyone who is not their spouse; you must be at least sixteen to marry. Unmarried adults are not forbidden to have sex, but must take responsibility for all children produced.

9.     Murder: Violence is always an option, but not necessarily the best one. As Esmerelda teaches, If you surrender to your impulses and anger, you will not find the best solution. Murder of members of the community is a deadly sin; killing outsiders is not necessarily a sin, but it's often unwise and shouldn't be the first choice. Especially if it brings trouble on the community.

10. Service to the Devil, Wakboth, who is also known as Nysalor or Gbaji: Pagans claim they dropped a rock on Wakboth, trapping him. You can't pin Wakboth under a rock any more than you could trap a wind or sunlight under a rock. He is an Essence; flesh is a mere garment. He returned as Nysalor, known also as Gbaji, to try to destroy the world in the First Age. In the second age, he tempted the wizards with power and nearly destroyed the world. In the third age, he has come as Shepelkirt the Red Goddess to lead the Pelorians to their doom. Because of him, no mysticism can EVER be trusted.

The archetypes of all sin are Wakboth the Devil and his son, Vadel the Fool Who Gazed Into the Abyss. Wakboth is the inner voice of sin within all, the desire to rebel and the lust for power. Vadel is the master of the ways we turn desire into action. Chaos is sin and sin is Chaos; they are one and they have the same fruit: Destruction.

By joining the Church and persevering in your faith, you experience the Joy of the Heart which will lead you to Solace on your death. If you stray, you should go to a holy person who will guide you back to the light, assigning you a penance to make up for it. Any sin can be forgiven if you are sincere and do penance (or die in the process of atoning; the Creator knows if you would have finished it in life.)

Krjalki (Non-Humans):

Anyone can be brought to the light of Malkion and should be! But it is rather hard. That being said, do not needlessly provoke them, for they are powerful and you owe it to your community to not get everyone else killed because you saw a chance to get some silver or some Elf killed your grandfather.

 

You can check out the full version here.

Edited June 2, 2020 by John Biles

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, 10baseT said:

So I’ve asked many questions about the Aeolians and thank you all. You’re really shed some light. There is still one notion I can’t seem to grasp. What is the difference between the Aeolian house of worship vs the Wind Temple (Orlanth)? I assume they’re different buildings in a town that has a good amount of Aeolians.

The Aeolians are henotheist and many (nobles and commoners) worship Orlanth (the Invisible God being too remote to worship directly). They become rune lords and priest and most likely preside over the wind temple... just like their Orlanthi hill brethren.

The Aeolian priest however are the sorcerors. Well, what do they do if the Invisible God is too remote to directly worhips? (Maybe except for them). Then if most others are worshipping in the wind temple, would there be an Aeolian temple in town as well? (which may sit empty for the most part because everyone is in the wind temple). (Vizel, Mt Passant, etc.)

I think the Commoners do not worship at the Aeolian temples.  Instead they worship the Gods through their God Talkers.  They are generally too poor to have etablished Rune Lords and Rune Priests.  

The Aeolian Warrior-Aristocracy do worship at the Temples.  They have Rune Lords as officers of the Temple who preside over the worship(which I realize weakens cults that have no Rune Lords)

I think the Aeolian Wizards are likely to be worshippers of Lhankor Mhy as representatives of the Invisible God as opposed to Makan or Irensavel (They would be more sorcerous than your average Lhankoring bumpkin and think nothing of studying with the God Forgotten for wisdom).  The Wizards would be attached to Shrines of Lhankor Mhy within the Aeolian Temples which some unsual elements (the Shrines are isolated from the temple with some Malkioni religious imagery).  I don't think the Wizards preside over the Orlanthi services - Lhankor Mhy is distinct from Orlanth.  Instead Lhankor is the emanation of the Invisible God that is closest to his thoughts even though Orlanth is the greatest emanation.  So while the Orlanthi lead, the Lhankoring Wizards advise with the wisdom of the Invisible God.

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Wizards would be attached to Shrines of Lhankor Mhy within the Aeolian Temples which some unsual elements

Based on the presentation of Aeolianism as distinct from Lhankor Mhy in RQG, I'm not inclined to assume the Aeolian wizards are specifically and only LM.  

A good reference point is Jeff's post from a couple years ago:  

"The priestly caste performs the rites and ceremonies for the community. Although they are called priests, they are in fact sorcerers."  

[EricW]

The intersection between the different beliefs is interesting. Does an Orlanthi face spirits of reprisal if they want to join Aeolian Orlanth and learn sorcery? What happens if they return home and try to teach sorcery to their fellow Orlanthi in say Sartar? If its permissible, why isn't knowledge of sorcery widespread everywhere?

[John Biles]

22 minutes ago, EricW said:

The intersection between the different beliefs is interesting. Does an Orlanthi face spirits of reprisal if they want to join Aeolian Orlanth and learn sorcery? What happens if they return home and try to teach sorcery to their fellow Orlanthi in say Sartar? If its permissible, why isn't knowledge of sorcery widespread everywhere?

My understanding is that most Orlanthi don't really have enough academic inclination to do so.

 

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Based on the presentation of Aeolianism as distinct from Lhankor Mhy in RQG, I'm not inclined to assume the Aeolian wizards are specifically and only LM.  

Would Lhankhor Mhy being the main god of the Aeolian Wizard caste be agreeable?

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

"The priestly caste performs the rites and ceremonies for the community. Although they are called priests, they are in fact sorcerers."  

Based on what I have seen of the sorcery rules and the new sorcery thinking, I very much doubt that sorceror could organize a sorcery spell as a drop-in replacement for a God.  Insofar as the Aeolian sorcerors led the rits and ceremonies for the community, the rites and ceremonies IMO are not to any specific god (such as the worship of Orlanth as that's officiated by their Rune Lords) but what RQ3 would have called a Worship Invisible God couched in Orlanthi mythology such as the Ritual of the Net.  The attendents give up their magic points for their sorcerors to spend as the blessings of Time.

[Richard S.]

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Would Lhankhor Mhy being the main god of the Aeolian Wizard caste be agreeable?

I don't think so. The Aeolian Wizards worship the Invisible God through Orlanth. Lhankor Mhy is at best a less important emanation of the IG or Orlanth, and only barbarians who refuse Aeol's message believe that he is the patron of sorcery.

[metcalph]

Just now, Richard S. said:

I don't think so. The Aeolian Wizards worship the Invisible God through Orlanth. Lhankor Mhy is at best a less important emanation of the IG or Orlanth, and only barbarians who refuse Aeol's message believe that he is the patron of sorcery.

Orlanth is not a God of Wizards thou, isn't he?  Attempts to make him into one seem to distort Orlanth far more than is plausible.  Even though Lhankor Mhy is lesser, he still has a direct line to the Invisible God which Orlanth does not.

[GAZZA]

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Orlanth is not a God of Wizards thou, isn't he?  Attempts to make him into one seem to distort Orlanth far more than is plausible.  Even though Lhankor Mhy is lesser, he still has a direct line to the Invisible God which Orlanth does not.

Though I do recall there was once a mention somewhere of "Invisible Orlanth"...

[Kloster]

5 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Though I do recall there was once a mention somewhere of "Invisible Orlanth"...

Yep, Carmania chapter of the Genertela RQ3 box.

[Richard S.]

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Orlanth is not a God of Wizards thou, isn't he?  Attempts to make him into one seem to distort Orlanth far more than is plausible.  Even though Lhankor Mhy is lesser, he still has a direct line to the Invisible God which Orlanth does not.

The Aeolians believe and can prove that Orlanth is a direct emanation of the Invisible God and all their other gods are emanations of Orlanth. The sorcerers don't get their power from Orlanth though, or from the Invisible God, that's not how sorcery works. They are merely holy/devout/knowledgeable/blessed enough to know how to manipulate the natural laws of Orlanth's universe without needing him to do it for them.

Among most Orlanthi yes, most sorcerers will follow Lhankor Mhy, but it's not like you need to be a member to learn it. Sorcery is a completely self-centered exercise that requires no intervention from gods or spirits to learn or use - I don't see why LM has to be involved for Aeolian priests to learn sorcery.

[French Desperate WindChild]

my actual thoughts (it changed from the first post... so it will be change )

 

Hyp1

all aeolian priests are illuminated (I dislike a lot the illumination joker) then they can be rune priests and sorcerers

Hyp2

aeolian Orlanth priests  are sorcerer (caste, magic) They cannot use rune magic as Orlanth initiate cannot use sorcery. But they know sorcery spells with same effects than rune spell => during worship ceremony, a large amount of mp can be used by the worshippers, maybe the ceremony itself allows to aggregate free INT from all participants (not only the priest)

aeolian Orlanthi (not priest caste) are seen as standard Orlanthi. Some literate (LM, nobles, ..) knows there are some difference

But all follow their god as usual; gain rank (initiate, gold talker, rune lord) they may follow the path of priesthood but, then, are not allowed to be aeolian (remember, they are not in the aeolian priest caste)

 

Until a next change, on aeolian topic, my larnste rune is near 100%;

 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

The Aeolians believe and can prove that Orlanth is a direct emanation of the Invisible God and all their other gods are emanations of Orlanth. The sorcerers don't get their power from Orlanth though, or from the Invisible God, that's not how sorcery works. They are merely holy/devout/knowledgeable/blessed enough to know how to manipulate the natural laws of Orlanth's universe without needing him to do it for them.

Among most Orlanthi yes, most sorcerers will follow Lhankor Mhy, but it's not like you need to be a member to learn it. Sorcery is a completely self-centered exercise that requires no intervention from gods or spirits to learn or use - I don't see why LM has to be involved for Aeolian priests to learn sorcery.

This is quite I have understood.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Sorcery is a completely self-centered exercise that requires no intervention from gods or spirits to learn or use - I don't see why LM has to be involved for Aeolian priests to learn sorcery.

I refer you to the RQG rules p384

Quote

Mastering New Runes or Techniques

[...]

To master a new Rune or technique, the sorcerer must achieve intellectual union with the source of their magic (be
it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, or whatever the sorcerer’s philosophy holds to be the case). The
sorcerer must make an INT+POW roll on a D100. The roll can be augmented through ritual practices. If successful, the
sorcerer must sacrifice 1 point of POW to master the Rune or technique. Only one attempt can be made per season.

It is not true that sorcery is completely self-centered given that a major RW inspiration is Greek Neo-platonism which deals with mental unity with the One Mind..  Given that Lhankor Mhy already has an existing pathway to achieve the source of their magic, it seems fairly obvious to me that hiis way would be the route of choice for the Aeolian Wizards as opposed to Orlanth, who does not have such a pathway.  Likewise given that Lhankor is the Advisor and Orlanth is the King of Gods, one would expect Orlanth to be worshipped by the Noble Caste rather than the Wizards.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Though I do recall there was once a mention somewhere of "Invisible Orlanth"...

Not described as a God of Sorcery.  If anything, a Carmanian Satrap has encouraged its worship to encourage "courage and battle skills among his hazars" Guide p324

[Kloster]

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I refer you to the RQG rules p384

It is not true that sorcery is completely self-centered given that a major RW inspiration is Greek Neo-platonism which deals with mental unity with the One Mind..  Given that Lhankor Mhy already has an existing pathway to achieve the source of their magic, it seems fairly obvious to me that hiis way would be the route of choice for the Aeolian Wizards as opposed to Orlanth, who does not have such a pathway.  Likewise given that Lhankor is the Advisor and Orlanth is the King of Gods, one would expect Orlanth to be worshipped by the Noble Caste rather than the Wizards.

Except that (RQG p389), Aeolianism is described as a completely different school of sorcery than Lhankor Lhy. And LM is listed as being part of the gods worshiped by Aeolians, along Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Eurmal, Ernalda and others. What I understand from this description is that you have in Aeolianism sorcerors of those different gods, and that LM Aeolian sorcerors are different of the standard LM sorcerors.

[metcalph]

20 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Except that (RQG p389), Aeolianism is described as a completely different school of sorcery than Lhankor Lhy. And LM is listed as being part of the gods worshiped by Aeolians, along Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Eurmal, Ernalda and others.

Yeah so?  The Aeolians order their gods differently from the standard Orlanthi but they are still the same Gods.

Quote

What I understand from this description is that you have in Aeolianism sorcerors of those different gods, and that LM Aeolian sorcerors are different of the standard LM sorcerors.

It says of the Aeolians, "The free and talar castes use Rune and spirit magic; the wizard caste uses sorcery".  Ergo they are not different gods and there is no sorcerous Orlanth etc.  Now I am getting rather tired of people trying to pick nits in what I said instead of applying themselves to answering the original poster's question.  If you disagree then please put up your own theory of how the Aeolians should be like instead of tearing apart mine..

Edited June 3, 2020 by metcalph

[Kloster]

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yeah so?  The Aeolians order their gods differently from the standard Orlanthi but they are still the same Gods.

Completely agree with you on that point. This is in fact one of the points that make them interesting to me.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It says of the Aeolians, "The free and talar castes use Rune and spirit magic; the wizard caste uses sorcery".  Ergo they are not different gods and there is no sorcerous Orlanth etc. 

I also agree. I just said you don't need LM to be a sorceror. The fact that there is no Orlanth sorcerors is not in the rules (but has been told explicitly by Jeff, although it seems to me incompatible with what is in the rules). I never said there is a Orlanth Sorcerous (but I think it could be fun, and could be find in Arkati sects such as Oktorioni).

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

instead of applying themselves to answering the original poster's question. 

I have answered him directly. See above 3rd post of the thread.

21 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If you disagree then put up your own theory of how the Aeolians should be like instead of tearing apart mine..

I have no theory, but try hard to make my mind. And I like your ideas and posts, so does not try to break them. I just disagree on 1 point.

[EricW]

Orlanthi face spirits of retribution if they break cult rules, but how much of this is due to them feeling guilty, because they believe what they did was wrong?

If a Sartarite Orlanthi tried to learn sorcery, they know they are doing the wrong thing, defying their clan and their religious and temporal leaders, because deep down they know sorcery is evil. But a place where sorcery is common and sorcerers are respected, I doubt it would feel such a sin to learn a few small spells. The alternative is reconciling Orlanth hating sorcery with practicing Orlanthi accepting a wizard caste which practices sorcery as an important part of the community, which makes even less sense IMO. 

If Orlanth can be a dragon, then Orlanth can also be a sorcerer, in the right circumstances.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

40 minutes ago, EricW said:

If Orlanth can be a dragon, then Orlanth can also be a sorcerer, in the right circumstances.

 

when Orlanth is a dragon, that means a draconic orlanth initiate follows the draconic path, so the draconic illumination

if Orlanth can be a dragon, that would mean a sorcerer orlanth initiate follows the sorcery path, so the sorcery illumination (arkat maybe ? more explanation one day with westerner/carmanian orlanthi sects ?)

so yes no reprisal because the illumination rules. but if no illumination, no draconic power, no sorcery spell in dragon pass settings ( if you follow Jeff's indications, and probably gagog)

 

 

[Kloster]

Why needing illumination?

[Jeff]

The Aeolian Orlanth is not the source of sorcery. He is the most important emanation of the Invisible God, who quested to fix the universe with the Lightbringers Quest. But he is a heroic figure, not the source of sorcery (although no doubt his mastery of the Runes of Air, Movement, and Mastery were a godly version of sorcery). But you my fellow wizard can study the immutable laws of the Invisible God and make the world follow your will.

The hill kingdoms do not understand that this is the same thing that their scribes do when they seek to understand Knowledge, but our lore is broader, more versatile.