Shooting While Moving

[BlindPumpkin]

I remember in RQII there was a rule about adventurers not being able to shoot while moving, but does this apply to RQG also? The following situation arose a few times during play, and every time I'm a little unsure on how to handle it. Considering adventurers ARE able to move and shoot in the same round, this is how I do it:
Declaration of intent: I tell a player he is being rushed by an enemy trying to close into melee range with him, he states that he will try to shoot the enemy, then walk backwards while readying another arrow, and if possible he'll shoot again.

So lets say his shortbow SR is 2, and the enemy has a shortsword SR of 7. Since he had his shortbow readied at the start of the round, I rule that he lets off a shot at SR 2, then moves back while readying his second arrow (combining the 4 SR cost of moving his maximum movement while attacking, and the 5 SR cost for readying a weapon, using the highest result), and will be able to let off another shot at SR 9, while the enemy will use all his MOV points to close in. Next round he can't use his bow anymore since he's effectively engaged in melee. He will need to ready a melee weapon, so the enemy (if still standing) will definitely get first shot at him.

Is this the right way to do it? I've been thinking, by reading over the combat chapter again, that maybe I should apply the costs for movement before any attacks are made, so the first shot would be at SR 6 (4 MOV + SR 2 shortbow) then he'd apply the 5 SR for readying the bow separately from movement, and not be able to shoot again until next round.

How would you guys rule it?

 

Edit: Apparently there IS a rule that adventurers can't shoot while moving in the rulebook, which I missed, although this does raise some questions as some of the examples imply you can in fact move and shoot in the same round.

Edited June 11, 2020 by BlindPumpkin

[French Desperate WindChild]

i would say that moving back should give the pc less that moving forward (mechanically, the legs aren't efficient, and you move carefully as you don't see where you go). Adding the fact that you do something else in the same time. I would allow the movement, but with dex roll

fumble => PC falls

failure => PC cannot move (blocked by a stone under the foot, something like that, can retry next round)

success => 25% of MOV; special 50%; critical 75%

 

just an impromptu proposal.

[Blindhamster]

RQ:G doesnt allow moving and shooting with a bow except when mounted on a horse or chariot.

 

Page 213 "shooting while moving" 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Blindhamster

[g33k]

Combining move-actions with combat-actions is a bit wonky and counter-intuitive.  I wish they had looked harder at these rules, and edited them harder too.

You can move-then-shoot in a single round (subject to SR limitations).  I think -- if your DEX is low enough, & subject to SR limits -- you can even move (a little bit) then shoot twice.

I don't believe you can shoot a readied arrow, then move (readying as you move) then shoot again, all in the same melee round... but I'd need to re-read those rules to be certain.

[Dissolv]

It is extraordinarily hard to shoot while moving in real life.  It's like running while holding a full mug of coffee and not spilling any.  Ben Stoeger, a noted IPSC World Champion and multiple time USPSA National Champion is noted to be able to draw a pistol, and score a bullseye while running from rather close distances, 25 yards IIRC.  This is rarefied air and with a modern weapon. 

There are multiple accounts from the American Colonial period of some Indians and backwoodsmen being able to not only shoot on the run, but load on the run as well!  There are even people who attempt this on video, with some success, on You Tube.  The average solider is utterly incapable of this feat.

In RQ:G, this is one of those "break the rules" rewards that I would use as a benefit of a Heroquest.   In fact that's a very easy to way to sum up my use of Heroquest rewards -- you can get things that you cannot get through strict adherence to the rules as written.  So it is important to stick to the rules in the first place, to allow breaking those barriers to matter.   If the players are "too special" because they are the players, I think it cuts into the meaning of things in the game.  Basically they get a power boost in terms of Rune points, skills, etc., over the average schmoo, but if they want to actually and literally break the rules, then it's time to roll up the sleeves and do a heroquest. 

Just my take on this sort of thing.  As an aside, I actually worked up an Advanced Runequest combat system for use with the original Questworld boxed set.  It featured many "combat maneuvers" that could be learned from various societies, many secret, around Kanos.  It was extremely popular with the players as it allowed non-magic solutions to be employed, which was a very big change from Glorantha, where the solution to more or less every problem is "more magic".   This type of thing was exactly what the players could potentially have their characters learn to help distinguish them from the rabble, even highly skilled rabble.   Joining a cult, becoming a priest, was no longer a long term necessity and a couple of the old timers were thrilled at the way it performed like a lower magic Conan setting, rather than the wild weirdness that is Glorantha. 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Dissolv

[David Scott]

Ignoring the rules on this and going with MGF on this, of course you can shoot and move (only if you move less than half your distance as per the engaged rules). However:

14 hours ago, Dissolv said:

It's like running while holding a full mug of coffee and not spilling any.

which I totally agree with, however you said 

17 hours ago, BlindPumpkin said:

then walk backwards while readying another arrow

Have you ever watched people doing something while walking backwards? They slow down completely to a crawl (similar to walking forwards while texting) and then according to a huge body of work on youtube, fall into or over something.

As a GM going with MGF, you'd just fall over backwards at the appropriate strike rank.

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

RQ:G doesnt allow moving and shooting with a bow except when mounted on a horse or chariot.

Correct. RQG is unusual for an RPG in that thrown weapons are really good, both because they don't have movement restrictions like this (RQG skirmishers had better use thrown weapons!) and because you get half DB.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Thaz]

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Correct. RQG is unusual for an RPG in that thrown weapons are really good, both because they don't have movement restrictions like this (RQG skirmishers had better use thrown weapons!) and because you get half DB.

I also think it's pretty realistic in this. As Dissolve says above it's pretty hard to shoot on the run even with modern weapons at anything other than point blank ranges (and I have some experience of IPSC and CQB myself). You put your entire body into pulling a bow or using a sling. I'd happily allow Move-Then-Shoot or the reverse subject to strike rank concerns. I would allow I think readying an arrow or sling stone or javelin-to-atlai on the run with a SR penalty and a reduction of speed. More load on the move rather than run I suppose. Someone with a High Dex could probably move pretty fast and load but not the same speed they could flat our sprint if that's all they were doing. How complex do we want combat rules to be though? I think the existing covers it pretty well and models what we know of real life fairly well for our needs. 

This has two impacts on skirmishers :- Yes I agree if your running towards the enemy thrown weapons are great (not so much if you are running away I would contest) but it also makes mounted skirmishers really deadly. And frankly mounted archers are! Praxian light cav and Pentians are feared for a reason as were the Mongols

[BlindPumpkin]

28 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Correct. RQG is unusual for an RPG in that thrown weapons are really good, both because they don't have movement restrictions like this (RQG skirmishers had better use thrown weapons!) and because you get half DB.

Ha! That is an interesting point. I will enforce the "no moving and shooting" rule more strictly from now on then, to further illustrate the advantages of using a different ranged weapon.

[Thaz]

3 hours ago, BlindPumpkin said:

Ha! That is an interesting point. I will enforce the "no moving and shooting" rule more strictly from now on then, to further illustrate the advantages of using a different ranged weapon.

Think of archers and slingers more like World War 2 and earlier tanks. They can shoot. And they can move. But not at the same time. 

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, BlindPumpkin said:

Ha! That is an interesting point. I will enforce the "no moving and shooting" rule more strictly from now on then, to further illustrate the advantages of using a different ranged weapon.

What you tend to see, certainly in films and TV Shows, is people moving and then briefly stopping to shoot and then moving again.

It is only really heroes who can run and shoot at the same time. In Legend terns, I'd have it as a Legendary Ability, in RuneQuest terms I'd have it as a special ability, "Move and Shoot" that enables people to fire missile weapons while moving with no penalty.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

What you tend to see, certainly in films and TV Shows, is people moving and then briefly stopping to shoot and then moving again.

It is only really heroes who can run and shoot at the same time. In Legend terns, I'd have it as a Legendary Ability, in RuneQuest terms I'd have it as a special ability, "Move and Shoot" that enables people to fire missile weapons while moving with no penalty.

That sounds like a limiter ability similar to Ride (for mounted activities) or Martial Arts. Centaurs should have this for their own version of the Parthian Shot.

 

I was going to chime in about how Paris's efforts as archer are described on the raid on the Greek ships, and on how my experience with somewhat strong longbows differs from my experience with the weaker precision sports bow and the "rubber band" LARP "bows" some people may have experience with.

 I decided to bow out of the debate. How Strike Ranks work in RQG is hard to reconcile with experiences from mock blade combat or archery.

The system is not designed to measure the time an action takes or how footwork or movement affect your position in a melee. 

 

 

[Lordabdul]

The GM is free (and encouraged!) to makes any rulings or house rules for any situation based on actual experience or common sense or (mis)conceptions... and as a GM who loves simulationist systems, I would totally support using custom rules like "you only get half your MOV if you do something else while moving, a quarter if you move backwards" or whatever.

But as far as RAW is concerned, my interpretation is that:

• You can't shoot while moving, but you can draw an arrow while moving.
• You can shoot an arrow before and after moving if you have enough SRs.
• Therefore, the OP's interpretation sounds correct to me: with a previously ready bow and arrow, the PC fires the arrow at SR 2, moves and draws a new arrow until SR 7, and shoots again at SR 9.

In fact, the example in RQG p195 is almost similar:

• Vasana fires a spell, then moves and draws an arrow, and then can't attack because she ran out of SRs.
• I don't see any problem replacing the spell casting with arrow shooting. The combined "move+draw arrow" is the same as in the OP. And since the example mentions that she can't shoot because there are no more SRs, I assume that she would be able to shoot if there were SRs.... therefore, you can shoot, move+draw, and shoot again.

As the OP mentioned, it's dangerous to do since you might be caught by a quickly advancing melee fighter who gets a free swipe at you. The shooter should ideally (if possible) get in position on top of a big rock or small cliff or other place where nobody can easily come at them in a straight line, and instead have to run around something, giving the shooter time to switch weapons.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 6/12/2020 at 3:13 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Correct. RQG is unusual for an RPG in that thrown weapons are really good, both because they don't have movement restrictions like this (RQG skirmishers had better use thrown weapons!) and because you get half DB.

Looked through the ranged combat tules very carefully and can not find anything that would confirm thrown weapons can be used while moving when projectiles can not Found this...

 

 

Quote

Shooting While Moving

An adventurer cannot shoot while moving or dodging. The only exception to this is mounted archery, which is performed at the same ability chance as regular archery, assuming the Ride skill of the archer is equal to the skill with the missile weapon. If the Ride skill is lower, the attacker’s skill is reduced to the level of the Ride skill.

RuneQuest page 213

. Not saying it makes sense or not, jut not seen the RAW saying this, Would you mind citing your rule. Mayhap’s this is also a case of poor editing and this was the intended rule.

.

On 6/13/2020 at 3:01 AM, soltakss said:

It is only really heroes who can run and shoot at the same time. In Legend terns, I'd have it as a Legendary Ability, in RuneQuest terms I'd have it as a special ability, "Move and Shoot" that enables people to fire missile weapons while moving with no penalty.

This makes sense, in the rules and the worlds of RQ...

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Looked through the ranged combat tules very carefully and can not find anything that would confirm thrown weapons can be used while moving when projectiles can not Found this...

"An adventurer cannot shoot while moving or dodging. "

This isn't particularly clear, but the rules seem to differentiate between "throw" and "shoot", such as on page 211, "One missile per melee round can be thrown/shot", and the term "shoot" is typically applied to projectile weapons (although not always, such as on p. 214, so it can be read either way). The paragraph then does go on to talk only about archery/mounted archery (does this mean that can't ride and use a thrown weapon at the same time, ever, in that case?). I'm reading this to mean that you "throw" thrown weapons, and "shoot" projectile weapons. And the rule you quote is only, as phrased, about shooting.

Perhaps this reading was influenced by the fact that throwing while moving pretty obviously works IRL. You won't see anyone standing still while throwing a javelin at the Olympics - if anything, you should get a penalty for not moving, at least a few steps.

However,  even if you don't like this reading, thrown weapons might be more mobile in another way - the rules are fairly clear that you can draw a weapon while moving (at least at half rate), which means that you can move while you get ready to attack again with thrown weapons, which is what you spend the majority of the time doing with thrown weapons anyway. Meanwhile, it seems unlikely that you can reload a projectile weapon while moving (or you could have arbalesters running around while reloading, which doesn't seem reasonable).

Edited June 15, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Thaz]

28 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Perhaps this reading was influenced by the fact that throwing while moving pretty obviously works IRL. You won't see anyone standing still while throwing a javelin at the Olympics - if anything, you should get a penalty for not moving, at least a few steps.

However,  even if you don't like this reading, thrown weapons might be more mobile in another way - the rules are fairly clear that you can draw a weapon while moving (at least at half rate), which means that you can move while you get ready to attack again with thrown weapons, which is what you spend the majority of the time doing with thrown weapons anyway. Meanwhile, it seems unlikely that you can reload a projectile weapon while moving (or you could have arbalesters running around while reloading, which doesn't seem reasonable).

I'd go with this. With the addition you need to be moving int he right direction more or less. You dont run backwards to throw the javelin. Which makes retreat tricky 

[Akhôrahil]

28 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I'd go with this. With the addition you need to be moving int he right direction more or less. You dont run backwards to throw the javelin. Which makes retreat tricky 

At least "kiting" retreating. Just running without shooting for a while works. 🙂

Also, that the javelin skirmishers can use shields is a Big Deal.

[Thaz]

Allllllllllllllllllllthough. I think there might be a house rule for this about loading on the move. I'm sure you can move at a slow speed and knock an arrow for example. Drawing a bow or crossbow or using a sling is going to preclude moving at any speed (hadda think about the sling)....for a regular strength human using a regular power bow. Larpers can do it as they use very low poundage bows or very light 'rocks' for example. But we live on Earth not Glorantha. 

The other day several members of the party all buffed the Vingan just before she entered single combat. She ended up with strength of 40 odd. That would make drawing a regular poundage bow equivalent to the Larp bows on earth....maybe then

[Thaz]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, that the javelin skirmishers can use shields is a Big Deal.

Slingers also. Which along with that 1d8 makes a big impact. Otherwise you need to pal up with a large shield user and we're a touch early for Pavaise use. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Thaz

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Slingers also. Which along with that 1d8 makes a big impact. Otherwise you need to pal up with a large shield user and we're a touch early for Pavaise use. 

I maintain that Pavis crossbowmen use a so-called ”Pavis” shield. 🙂

[Thaz]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I maintain that Pavis crossbowmen use a so-called ”Pavis” shield. 🙂

It does work for me. I mean you could steal the Yelmalio Pike and shield trick but not properly so you cant move and shoot/load. And I mean Hoplite shields got pretty big.