Babeester Gor and celibacy

[rykemasters]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

If there were any requirement on celibacy, there would be no rule for children.

Yeah, to be clear, I know that, as I've mentioned in a previous post. What I mean is, previous rulesets have included a requirement for celibacy, and the overall lore around Babeester Gore makes it pretty reasonable for someone to houserule things that way for their Glorantha. It's clear that there is no hard requirement for complete celibacy in core RQG or in the upcoming cults book, at least for initiates.

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Kloster said:

According to Jeff: 'Initiates may not marry and must give any offspring to their local Earth Temple.' They are thus fertile, and can have children, although outside of marriage.

Yeah, okay. Not in my Glorantha though, which still lean more towards the HW/HQ stuff. I also go for optional fertility for Vingans.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[rykemasters]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

According to Jeff: 'Initiates may not marry and must give any offspring to their local Earth Temple.' They are thus fertile, and can have children, although outside of marriage. They are also permitted to have sex, and to have children, because otherwise, the ruling about children given to temples would be useless.

That's also how I interpret that snippet, although two things should probably be considered:

1) There are various levels of initiation into the cult and we should probably not conflate initiates and Rune Lord-level folks, and

2) You could read that rule as referring to children born before initation into the cult (which would probably apply mostly to those who initiate pretty late into the cult, but for a cult like BG's where revenge is a major theme, that may be the case more frequently than average). But then you would expect a clarification that they can also not conceive.

[Kloster]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

which still lean more towards the HW/HQ stuff.

Not mine. Everybody's Glorantha must vary.

[Kloster]

18 minutes ago, rykemasters said:

What I mean is, previous rulesets have included a requirement for celibacy,

I don't know for HW/HQ, but I just checked RQ3's Gods of Glorantha, and no such restriction.

15 minutes ago, rykemasters said:

You could read that rule as referring to children born before initation into the cult (which would probably apply mostly to those who initiate pretty late into the cult, but for a cult like BG's where revenge is a major theme, that may be the case more frequently than average).

I'd not thought to that possibility, but that can be correct.

16 minutes ago, rykemasters said:

But then you would expect a clarification that they can also not conceive.

Correct.

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, rykemasters said:

1) There are various levels of initiation into the cult and we should probably not conflate initiates and Rune Lord-level folks, and

This makes sense, but now it also strikes me how weird I find a BG cultist who only spends 10% of her time doing BG stuff. It seems like that kind of thing should be all-consuming, not be a side activity.

I also can’t even fathom a BG or Humakt Rune-Lord being fertile.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

Babeester Gor is depicted as a ferocious woman whose eyes are red with intoxication and rage. Her hair is disheveled and her blood-red tongue lolls drunkenly. Her skin is black, but her hands and feet are painted red with blood. She is naked except for her garlands of grisly trophies – scalps, hands, and male genitals. She carries a double-headed copper axe that is also decorated with her grisly trophies.

The artist commissionned to draw Babs for Cults will have fun with that...

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This makes sense, but now it also strikes me how weird I find a BG cultist who only spends 10% of her time doing BG stuff. It seems like that kind of thing should be all-consuming, not be a side activity.

 

yes but it could be 100% behaviour and 10% cult activity :

she could be a mercenary (but choosing her mission), she could be adventuring for her own choice (not for temple duty). But clearly I cannot imagine a Bab scribe / healer / fisher or even farmer.

I consider the cult time restriction is only who decides where the character goes (GM or player). A rune lord or priest (without the urox-like "as leader of your cult you go where you want) should go outside of his/her communauty  only on mission for the cult (well except 10% of the time). 

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, g33k said:

Where's the stern-but-calm, steadfast temple-defender?  Yeah, sure, there's mention of the role... but no supporting imagery in the text!

I don't consider babs defender as calm defender : the temple as many defenses (husband protectors, earth curse, etc..) Babs defender are the ultimate, like nuclear disuasion.. you don't want to see what will happen if you meet Babs.

14 hours ago, g33k said:

Where's the merciless-but-cold tracker, calmly chasing down a runaway kinslayer, a hidden oathbreaker? 

Same here, there are a lot of possibility, LM, Issaries Orlanth(vinga included) but I would say, as men are weak (LM, Issaries) or just ridiculous and crying warrior (Orlanth) just wait for mom, your way is violence, let the other ways to mom, and when she will give you the target, do what you want (if a berserker as any will under this state..)

Ernalda is a very rich cult, and the social part can give  good investigator (not like LM spell, more as roleplay, women solidarity/secrets, promise of nice childs, seduction of young men...

 

There is only one side of Babs. It is just an "aspect" of Ernalda I would say, so destructive that she split this part from her

14 hours ago, g33k said:

Unless the B.Gori are getting a new special "Sense:<X>" akin to Humakti's ...Assassin & Uroxi's ...Chaos, which they can Sense while in the midst of bloodthirsty berzerkergang...

that makes sense, and may exist thanks ! But I m not sure a lot of players would invest in this skill (assassin and chaos are met every scenario, oathbreaker one or two in a pc life )

Edited September 4, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

57 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes but it could be 100% behaviour and 10% cult activity

Sure, and this would be very common, but my point is that it doesn't have to be, ruleswise. You could castrate and revenge in 10% of your time, and be, I don't know, a potter or something for the rest? 

[French Desperate WindChild]

25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sure, and this would be very common, but my point is that it doesn't have to be, ruleswise. You could castrate and revenge in 10% of your time, and be, I don't know, a potter or something for the rest? 

yes that a big difference between you and me : I don't care if rules don't answer all questions,

here we are in a roleplay time. If a table don't care about that (I choose babs because I want the axe trance spell , and let me play as I want) and another one care a lot (I choose babs because i want to play a so "bad" woman) , both are fine. Well I will have pleasure in the second one, but another would prefer the first one.

But in both cases.. the one who wants the spell wants a strong warrior, so choose a fighter occupation

the second who want to "fit" with the concept of babs, will also choose a fighter occupation

so the rule will just say "hey choose a fighter occupation !" that just adding words without big impact (except more expensive and more lines for the reader)

And what about other occupation : a baabs devotee could be interesting to smith weapons (let's think about a new method to punish the target), to spy (let's train to infiltrate a fortress if we need to destroy one in the future), to hunt in the wild (let's train to track if we need to explode the target trying to hide in woods) etc..

I think here that it is more a gm decision than a rule point. If you have a role who clearly forbid something, and you want to follow all rules, a very good background / explanation from a player should be rejected. That would be sad.

 

[Akhôrahil]

One take that wouldn't be even remotely canonical could be where the traditional role for BG cultists - full-time blood-crazed avengers - is filled by the Runelords, while Initiates act as more of a support structure, gathering information and identifying targets, offering material and magical support and backup when the fight happens, putting in some hours each week guarding the temple, putting a smackdown on misbehaving men, and so on. Wanting to support the effort, but mostly going on with their lives, and probably not decorating themselves with actual dried male genitalia.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Loïc]

My Babeester Gori-player (and remember it's not RQ but HQ) chose the occupational keyword Godi, because he didn't want to play a "full-fighter" character (but didn't want to craft/farm/breed/... anything either!). I must point out that he chose the text-writing creation way, and he was indeed very creative and it fits perfectly with his concept. Godi is a quiet good occupation for his own Bab.

I must also point out that it's a Coming Storm campaign character, so after her initiation, the Babeester Gor went back to Red Cow Fort as bodyguard of the local ernaldan priestesses/devotees/initiates. Of course, when the campaign is starting (tomorrow!!!), she's a rookie on her job, totally under the orders of the priestress of Ernalda and eventually the Women Ring. The character will probably have to face one of these days contradictory orders... 😁

[French Desperate WindChild]

yes more "today way of life" background  is the better way for me to transform the good into the best (well I need too canonical heroquest rules and a large amount of heroquest scenarios)

[Akhôrahil]

An interesting BG background could be that you joined for this one vengeance quest, and you finished it, so now what do you do with your life? 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

An interesting BG background could be that you joined for this one vengeance quest, and you finished it, so now what do you do with your life? 

I think there's more movement of worshippers between cults in Glorantha than RuneQuest "by the book" would permit.

Thunder Rebels (written for Hero Wars) had an approach to this that made sense to me, but did it with a now-deprecated model involving bajillions of specialised subcults and aspects: as a young person you start out worshipping young-person aspects of Orlanth & Ernalda (the lover, the warrior, the maiden, the healer), as you mature you worship their more mature aspects (the husband, the chieftain, the wife, the priestess), once you're an elder you're worshipping their elder aspects (the wise man, the prophet, the lawspeaker, the crone). We tend to look at adventurers and NPCs at a specific point in their careers; we don't spend much time wondering how their magic has transitioned through different life stages. ("Has this crone been sacrificing for crone magic since she was a young woman? What happened to the magic she learned before she was a crone?")

Changing Gods, p.70:

Quote

Heortlings often change the deity or aspect that they worship. The great underlying continuity of Orlanth and Ernalda make this a natural process. Thus, when a man becomes a farmer instead of a hunter, he changes his worship from Ormalaya (Orlanth the Hunter) to Orlanthcarl (Orlanth the Farmer). Similarly, a farmer who is burned out of his home and takes up the sword no longer needs the benefits provided by Orlanthcarl, but needs the combat abilities of Helamakt or Hedkoranth. Since he is moving between aspects or subcults of the same god, he suffers no penalties for this change beyond the loss of some magic associated with the old worship. In return, he can learn new magic more appropriate to his changed circumstances.

Swapping to another deity within the pantheon is covered on p.72: that's more unusual, and while I suppose you could make a case for Ernalda and Babeester Gor being linked through the Six Earths (and indeed I'd be delighted to do this), the Thunder Rebels model "by the book" has you binning your old magic unless there's something very similar in the cult you've moved to. So it's likely your BG would essentially "lose" (or stop replenishing) her Babeester Gor Rune points, and would need to start up a new pool of Ernalda Rune magic starting from zilch.

Except, of course, that you can never really retire. Something's going to drag her back in, or she wouldn't be a player character.

(I've sometimes wondered whether you could make a case for slowly shifting Rune Points between pools, say just one point per year at Sacred Time, to show how your worship focus gradually changes. And then I remember that nobody else really cares about these nuances, and I get on with my life)

Edited September 4, 2020 by Nick Brooke

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I think there's more movement of worshippers between cults in Glorantha than RuneQuest "by the book" would permit.

I strongly agree, and I would let PCs transfer their Rune Points when they make a "natural" transition, like Ernalda to Asrelia, anyone to Humakt or Chalana Arroy following the Relife Sickness, that kind of thing. Maybe Ernalda to Vinga or Babeester Gor if it's a natural progression (I would imagine BG is the first inition choice of very few people, and rather triggered by events). Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for anyone to switch - there's such a big sunk cost in Rune Points in older cults.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Nick Brooke]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

I strongly agree, and I would let PCs transfer their Rune Points when they make a "natural" transition, like Ernalda to Asrelia, anyone to Humakt or Chalana Arroy following the Relife Sickness, that kind of thing. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for anyone to switch - there's such a big sunk cost in Rune Points in older cults.

Humakt to Yanafal Tarnils... 😈

 

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

(I've sometimes wondered whether you could make a case for slowly shifting Rune Points between pools, say just one point per year at Sacred Time, to show how your worship focus gradually changes. And then I remember that nobody else really cares about these nuances, and I get on with my life)

My PCs moved to the Risklands, and I'm allowing a slow drift of points of Language, Customs, Local Knowledge and so on to actually be useful in the new setting (because no-one likes dead skills). Have to remind them of this option every single season, though... 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

An interesting BG background could be that you joined for this one vengeance quest, and you finished it, so now what do you do with your life? 

I see this as an overwhelmingly Vingan path -- a particular wrong to be righted, and nobody else doing it.

I don't see BG as a "temporary" path; BG wants people who are not just seeking vengeance for wrongs done to them and theirs, but to the larger community & commonality; or, if you will, people who see the larger group as "them an theirs."
 

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, g33k said:

I see this as an overwhelmingly Vingan path -- a particular wrong to be righted, and nobody else doing it.

I don't see BG as a "temporary" path; BG wants people who are not just seeking vengeance for wrongs done to them and theirs, but to the larger community & commonality; or, if you will, people who see the larger group as "them an theirs."

I don't see BG as temporary either - it's not the easiest things to come back from - but I do think it's often part of a specific vengeance quest. For a woman who was violated and wants to dedicate herself to vengeance, it's the obvious choice. Meanwhile, I see Vingans as more oriented towards community defence - Vinga has this in her myths in a way I don't think BG does. 

So that was the thought behind the idea - you have done appalling things in absolute pursuit of vengeance, and even now that it's done, there's no turning back from the path of violence. Now what do you do? I imagine that becoming a temple guardian would be a common choice in the situation.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(I would imagine BG is the first inition choice of very few people, and rather triggered by events). Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for anyone to switch - there's such a big sunk cost in Rune Points in older cults.

Thinking about that-   In the context of the Recent Unpleasantness (Lunar conquest through Dragonrise) many young women might reach initiation age with revenge on their minds.  Conquering armies often commit atrocities, you've just come off the destruction of Whitewall, the Lunars got as far south as Nochet -  I can see this as a situation likely to produce child soldiers in the Real World definition.  Their first choice in those years just might be Babeester Gor.

Then gods help you if you run into them.   They've not been lectured on the law of war.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
makes more snese when I spell it right

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Thinking about that-   In the contest of the Recent Unpleasantness (Lunar conquest through Dragonrise) many young women might reach initiation age with revenge on their minds.  Conquering armies often commit atrocities, you've just come off the destruction of Whitewall, the Lunars got as far south as Nochet -  I can see this as a situation likely to produce child soldiers in the Real World definition.  Their first choice in those years just might be Babeester Gor.

Agree, this makes sense - it's an unusual time. If you're already committed to revenging yourself on the Six-Fingered Man, then BG is the obvious choice. 

(Or possibly Vinga - I see the difference here as being "revenge at any cost, no matter what" and "revenge with honorable conduct".)

[Rob Darvall]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree, this makes sense - it's an unusual time. If you're already committed to revenging yourself on the Six-Fingered Man, then BG is the obvious choice. 

(Or possibly Vinga - I see the difference here as being "revenge at any cost, no matter what" and "revenge with honorable conduct".)

My take is that Vinga is seeking personal vengance, Babeester Gor is seeking vengance for the Earth. The impersonal nature of their unleashing a horrific berserker rage is part of what makes them so terrifying. The Vingan sees her target as a person to be slain. The Gori sees them as a blot to be cleansed. Hence Vigan revenge is "honorable battle" while Gorite vengance is a very messy  cleaning chore. Something that just has to be done, making the target's honour irrelevant.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

My take is that Vinga is seeking personal vengance, Babeester Gor is seeking vengance for the Earth.

Fully agree 

i see vingan (temporary or not) to seek personal revenge. Choosing Babs (or be called by) seems to me a answer for a near mythic Crisis (temple issue, community destruction, ground curse...)

———

i m not sure you can change easily your cult when you are initiate. Yes your Life changes and your cult may change but

1) if you seek god blessing, you are lay member, don’t need more

2) normaly you are initiate because your destiny /way of life fits with the god

A standard sartarite is ernaldan or orlanth because these gods are the standard of the heortling culture. That s why there are so many sub cults / aspects reflecting the different  phases of a regular way of life 

but some people are dedicated to something different, something specialized so they joined a specific, a more extrem cult and are initiate of its secret

you are just a man who hunts, you choose the hunter sub cult of Orlanth. Your blood is hunt, your brain is hunt, you are called by  a hunt god, not Orlanth. You may be able to transform yourself in a wild animal when a regular hunter cannot for example 

and some people  change

i see here two possibilities:

- this change is uncommon but well documented by the cult (temporary move from ernalda to vinga, definitely move to asrelia ) you may follow a ritual (but sacrifice are requested) to use your rune pool (maybe you loose one)

- this change is rare, you leave your way of life to another one. Then I consider you have to create another rune pool (the previous one depends on if you leave the previous cult or stay initiate)

for example becoming babeester gor initiate (not lay member) is severing a part of ernalda : you accept human sacrifice, you refuse childs and husband, violence and suffer are your only way.. exactly the opposite of ernalda so in my glorantha, it cannot be the same pool or a transfer of points from one to the other 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild