Lie as mind control

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Glorion said:

You, the Yelm priest, don't love your god, should work, briefly, for a couple minutes, during which you would be in the equivalent of what happens when you fumble a Passion role

I agree but the issue is there is the lie effect doesn't stop without  a big change

"They continue to believe it until they have incontrovertible evidence of its falsehood"

 

you have the memory that the sun rised every morning but can be "convinced" that the sun will not rise any more. And you will be convinced until it rises again.

In case of  love (or any other feeling), you can remember that you loved someone, that doesn't prove that you love the person now.

You can read any love letter you wrote yesterday, but if you don't feel it in yourself now, you just say it was what it was (yes true you loved and that is finish), but it is not any more.

The issue for me is the "for ever" duration of the spell. But yes if there is a spell able to "convince" you that one passion is a fake, for 15 minutes, I will perfectly follow your explanation. Here the infinite duration is the main issue, you cannot give any proof that someone loves someone.

[Lordabdul]

17 hours ago, Glorion said:

It doesn't just disappear. He has to make a persuasion roll of some kind. If the lie is implausible, the GM should give him bonuses on the roll. OTOH, if some of his past actions have made the lie sound plausible...

Yeah at that point it becomes a "he said / he said" situation in favour (originally) to the trickster.

17 hours ago, Glorion said:

Good Lying, like good lying, is a fine art.

Indeed, but I think the finer art is that of the GM handling it. To me that's where the value of this thread comes from, because reading how various people would interpret and play this or that type of lie really helps create a good mental framework.

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In case of  love (or any other feeling), you can remember that you loved someone, that doesn't prove that you love the person now.

That's where, IMHO, the Lie wouldn't work. As the targets thinks back for a minute about how they feel about the other person, they should quickly find that they still indeed love them. There's no reason that Lie changes feelings and personality traits, otherwise tricksters could just as well use Lie to say "you're really impatient and reckless!" to a well-known pragmatic Earth priestess, or "you've always been afraid of broos!" to a renowned Storm Bull Chaos killer, and so on. How would they ever shake the Lie in that case? Would the Storm Bull have to face broos to realize he's not really afraid of them? But in the meantime, he's going to refuse going out to the devil's marsh, and so the spell will last until he encounters a broo accidentally? I don't know, that seems untenable to me.

[Glorion]

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

An Eurmal cultists worried about the consequences of their actions shouldn't really be an Eurmal cultist, or is already in chains.

IMHO the trouble with the Trickster trying something like what I was discussing is that *it doesn't work.* If he is foolish enough to try it anyway, fine, but then he's used up the rune points to no purpose. Being a trickster, yup he might do it anyway, such is the life of a trickster.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

That's where, IMHO, the Lie wouldn't work. As the targets thinks back for a minute about how they feel about the other person, they should quickly find that they still indeed love them. There's no reason that Lie changes feelings and personality traits, otherwise tricksters could just as well use Lie to say "you're really impatient and reckless!" to a well-known pragmatic Earth priestess, or "you've always been afraid of broos!" to a renowned Storm Bull Chaos killer, and so on. How would they ever shake the Lie in that case? Would the Storm Bull have to face broos to realize he's not really afraid of them? But in the meantime, he's going to refuse going out to the devil's marsh, and so the spell will last until he encounters a broo accidentally? I don't know, that seems untenable to me.

yes we agree , lie should not change feeling. It changes belief.

 

but my reasoning is a little bit different :

i consider that a victim of "lie" cannot by personal though change his new belief. Because when you believe, you believe, you don't ask yourself if it is a good idea or not to believe it as there is no reason to ask yourself (well except if you have "ask yourself all the time about everything" passion). You start to question yourself when an external stimulus happens. (that is what the rules illustrate with the "no rising sun experience")

So back to feeling. If a spell changes feeling, how can you come back to your "true" feelings ? there are for me only two ways :

- the spell has a duration, after that everything get right (-> lie spell has no limit duration)

- the spell has an external exit condition for example you see the "target" of you previous feeling and your previous feeling come back. (-> lie spell has an exit condition but not this one : you see the proof demonstrating it was a lie. Seeing someone is not a proof of feeling, as I previously said I don't consider that you can demonstrate that a previous feeling is the actual feeling)

so if lie changes feeling, only another lie spell can "break" it. too awesome for me. Lie will not change feelings on my table.

But there is an open door for an "overpower" spell, something like 10 rune points spell (of course one use) to change a feeling whitout time limit (but the victim can augment is resistance roll with the passion)

 

 

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but my reasoning is a little bit different

Sounds like an acceptable take on Lie, although it makes it more powerful I think... So how would you handle the Lie to a Storm Bully that he's really always been deadly afraid of broos then? What would the exit condition be? Would even facing a broo dissipate the Lie, or would he be indeed afraid and run away?

[Glorion]

21 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes we agree , lie should not change feeling. It changes belief.

 

but my reasoning is a little bit different :

i consider that a victim of "lie" cannot by personal though change his new belief. Because when you believe, you believe, you don't ask yourself if it is a good idea or not to believe it as there is no reason to ask yourself (well except if you have "ask yourself all the time about everything" passion). You start to question yourself when an external stimulus happens. (that is what the rules illustrate with the "no rising sun experience")

So back to feeling. If a spell changes feeling, how can you come back to your "true" feelings ? there are for me only two ways :

- the spell has a duration, after that everything get right (-> lie spell has no limit duration)

- the spell has an external exit condition for example you see the "target" of you previous feeling and your previous feeling come back. (-> lie spell has an exit condition but not this one : you see the proof demonstrating it was a lie. Seeing someone is not a proof of feeling, as I previously said I don't consider that you can demonstrate that a previous feeling is the actual feeling)

so if lie changes feeling, only another lie spell can "break" it. too awesome for me. Lie will not change feelings on my table.

But there is an open door for an "overpower" spell, something like 10 rune points spell (of course one use) to change a feeling whitout time limit (but the victim can augment is resistance roll with the passion)

 

 

You have proven that your version and interpretation of the Lie spell is problematic. So, therefore, it's wrong. Simple solution to the problem!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But there is an open door for an "overpower" spell, something like 10 rune points spell (of course one use) to change a feeling

Ernalda has "Arouse Passion" that somewhat matches.  Stackable, each point adds 20% to one Passion.  Even a non-existent one.

But only lasts 15 minutes, or however long you cast Extension.  Not forever or until disproved.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So how would you handle the Lie to a Storm Bully that he's really always been deadly afraid of broos then?

I won't, as lie cannot create/change feeling on my table.

But, some spells can do it (fear for example) so yes a storm bully can be feared by a broo and this spell is well described

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Ernalda has "Arouse Passion" that somewhat matches.  Stackable, each point adds 20% to one Passion.  Even a non-existent one.

But only lasts 15 minutes, or however long you cast Extension.  Not forever or until disproved.

Yes sure, my "overpowered" spell is only if there is no "exit condition"

[Akhôrahil]

16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Sounds like an acceptable take on Lie, although it makes it more powerful I think... So how would you handle the Lie to a Storm Bully that he's really always been deadly afraid of broos then? What would the exit condition be? Would even facing a broo dissipate the Lie, or would he be indeed afraid and run away?

Again, Lie isn’t a memory alteration spell. If you tell the Storm Bull he has all ways been afraid of Broo, he might briefly think so, but introspection will reveal it as false, at which point the spell breaks.

If you want to mess him up, tell him that Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos instead. How could anyone possibly disprove that by observation?

Lie makes for a weirdly powerful missionary or political tool. “Hrestol’s teachings are the only correct ones.” “The Lunar Empire is a force for good.” “Orlanth is not worthy of worship.” “Argrath is the rightful king.” “Tricksters deserve to be cherished.” Since you can’t ever strongly disprove such statements, there’s no getting rid of them, except perhaps another Lie spell.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Hteph]

On 11/25/2020 at 3:46 PM, Akhôrahil said:

If so, it happened super early, as in before PIE migrations. The Aesir/Vanir divide is present in Indian and Persian religion as well (Devas and Asuras, where hilariously they each decided differently on which are the good guys).

Yep, but remember, we was soooo much behind up here in Scandinavia, the "Bronze age" was still in full strength while the Mediterranean was well into the "Iron age" so when the author wrote about the Bronze age Vanir it could be quite "recently". Interesting with the Devas/Asuras, never made that connection myself. 

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I won't, as lie cannot create/change feeling on my table.

Ah right I thought you were explaining your take on Lie earlier but I realize I misread and you were talking about other hypothetical spells... sorry, carry on!

[PhilHibbs]

Best Lie I saw was "I'm the only person you can trust".

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Ah right I thought you were explaining your take on Lie earlier but I realize I misread and you were talking about other hypothetical spells... sorry, carry on!

as i don't understand what I write, that is not an issue

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yes sure, my "overpowered" spell is only if there is no "exit condition"

With Extension 5, it could last for a year.  That should be plenty of time to cause havoc.  🙂

[Glorion]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Again, Lie isn’t a memory alteration spell. If you tell the Storm Bull he has all ways been afraid of Broo, he might briefly think so, but introspection will reveal it as false, at which point the spell breaks.

If you want to mess him up, tell him that Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos instead. How could anyone possibly disprove that by observation?

Lie makes for a weirdly powerful missionary or political tool. “Hrestol’s teachings are the only correct ones.” “The Lunar Empire is a force for good.” “Orlanth is not worthy of worship.” “Argrath is the rightful king.” “Tricksters deserve to be cherished.” Since you can’t ever strongly disprove such statements, there’s no getting rid of them, except perhaps another Lie spell.

Tricksters do deserve to be cherished, so that isn't a good use of the Lie spell. Just ask rightful king Argrath, he'll tell you that... Well, maybe not Elusu. The other Lies would be dispelled by somebody he respects telling him otherwise, which would force him to think about it, and then his lifetime of believing otherwise would overcome the Lie. But until someone like that does, yes the Lie would be effective. But probably not a good use of the spell, as that would not necessarily effect his actions, just be sort of a longer lasting and milder Befuddle.

[Glorion]

55 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as i don't understand what I write, that is not an issue

 

In that case, you are the perfect person to run a Trickster character.

38 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

With Extension 5, it could last for a year.  That should be plenty of time to cause havoc.  🙂

Lie is an Instant spell, so not extendable.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Glorion said:

The other Lies would be dispelled by somebody he respects telling him otherwise, which would force him to think about it

By reason, yes, but I'm not sure I believe that's the Lie is actually worded. Disbelieving the lie requires "incontrovertible evidence", and how could you possibly find that against these kinds of statement?

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

With Extension 5, it could last for a year.  That should be plenty of time to cause havoc.  🙂

sure but arouse passion + extension 5 need 6 rune points to be spent, so for one year, I would say it s fine

I m not sure if I follow an house rule or an official (my memory is like my english...), but as the spell should be finish to get back the rune point, the "sacrifice" is high (your pool minus 6 for a year)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Glorion said:

Lie is an Instant spell, so not extendable.

Correct.  The Extension is for "Arouse Passion."

[Kloster]

11 hours ago, Glorion said:

Lie is an Instant spell, so not extendable.

Which means it also can't be dispelled.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

13 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Which means it also can't be dispelled.

Nor does Countermagic help.

[Glorion]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

By reason, yes, but I'm not sure I believe that's the Lie is actually worded. Disbelieving the lie requires "incontrovertible evidence", and how could you possibly find that against these kinds of statement?

Eh. Memory of hating chaos or whatever all your life is pretty incontrovertible in my book.

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Which means it also can't be dispelled.

Ye indeed, cannot be dispelled, or resisted, or shielded from by Countermagic, as Lie is a spell on *oneself.*

[Glorion]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

By reason, yes, but I'm not sure I believe that's the Lie is actually worded. Disbelieving the lie requires "incontrovertible evidence", and how could you possibly find that against these kinds of statement?

To be precise, remember Glorantha is not Earth. If your priest imparts the cult wisdom that everyone knows and you knew all your life before the Lie spell, that is incontrovertible for you. Philosophers might consider it controvertible, so perhaps sorcerors are more vulnerable to Lie spells than others.

[Akhôrahil]

31 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Eh. Memory of hating chaos or whatever all your life is pretty incontrovertible in my book.

This works against the Lie ”You have always loved Chaos” (you haven’t), but not against ”Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos” (maybe your old hatred was uncalled for?).

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This works against the Lie ”You have always loved Chaos” (you haven’t), but not against ”Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos” (maybe your old hatred was uncalled for?).

One could always reason "If Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos then my hatred of Chaos is also necessary".