Lie as mind control

[Glorion]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This works against the Lie ”You have always loved Chaos” (you haven’t), but not against ”Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos” (maybe your old hatred was uncalled for?).

A pointless Lie, as metcalph pointed out. It would not necessarily affect any of one's actions, so what for? Moreover, if you are not Illuminated the hatred of nonChaotics for Chaos is instinctive, so probably would overwhelm the Lie fairly quickly. Nothing is more incontrovertible than instinct. The effect of that Lie would probably be more or less like a milder and perhaps more long lasting Befuddle. The Storm Bull lusting to slay that allegedly chaotic Lunar would probably kvetch about it for a while before doing so. Remember, a Lie spell affects what you think, not what you feel.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Glorion

[Hteph]

And "a necessary part of the universe" is describing a lot of things that someone could hate and fight against. Death is necessary, but fight against murder and terminal illness feels pretty ok.

When the lie is difficult to actually refute, it is often so general it is toothless in application. Craft lies that are applicable in the short term local situation and accept that it will go away sooner or later.

[Akhôrahil]

51 minutes ago, Hteph said:

When the lie is difficult to actually refute, it is often so general it is toothless in application. Craft lies that are applicable in the short term local situation and accept that it will go away sooner or later.

Sometimes, but not always. Matters of religious doctrine can matter a lot, for instance.

Tell a Humakti "Your geas about where you can't wear armor has shifted from legs to arms", and sure, when he puts on leg armor he will realize that it was a lie... far too late. 

[Glorion]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:47 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Sometimes, but not always. Matters of religious doctrine can matter a lot, for instance.

Tell a Humakti "Your geas about where you can't wear armor has shifted from legs to arms", and sure, when he puts on leg armor he will realize that it was a lie... far too late. 

Now there's a truly *nasty* Lie. That would work! It would also mean that from then on the word would spread to Humaktis to kill you on sight. Kinda like what happened to an old character of mine who ended a brief experience as a Humakti, he agreed to initiate to Humakt temporarily to go on a quest against Delecti, who got himself resurrected after he got killed. He has been fleeing Humakti ever since, really limiting my ability to use him as a character. Joining Yanafal helped, fends off the spirits of retribution, but not enough.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I would not punish the Humakti who was lied to about his geas. YGMV.

If a Humakti was captured, placed into metal armor, and force fed cooked vegetables (against those geas), would the God punish him?

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I would not punish the Humakti who was lied to about his geas. YGMV.

If a Humakti was captured, placed into metal armor, and force fed cooked vegetables (against those geas), would the God punish him?

Maybe? Geases tend to be hardcore that way and not care about intents. Trickery would be no excuse.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I would not punish the Humakti who was lied to about his geas. YGMV.

If a Humakti was captured, placed into metal armor, and force fed cooked vegetables (against those geas), would the God punish him?

Humakt knows there was a lie, but Humakt knows too that the humakti had a chance to understand it was a lie (well... or not, but Humakt is Humakt, don't challenge the death) and the humakti failed to see the truth... So a good humakti would ask for forgiveness

I as Humakt, would accept to forgive my loyal worshipper, I would just request the humakti to

- follow his "true" geas (the one I gave him)

- follow his "new" geas (the one he believed he has)

 

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Humakt knows there was a lie, but Humakt knows too that the humakti had a chance to understand it was a lie

One thing that I would very likely allow in at least this situation (even though the game system doesn't support it) is a Truth Rune check to see through the Lie spell.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Lie about a geas just plain fails.  Lies about religious dogma are very tricky.

Imagine the target is a Chalana Arroy.  And the Trickster says "Chalana Arroy commands you to kill that sleeping baby".

In any case, it's a horribly broken spell.  It has always been broken.

[Dragon]

If I played a Storm Bull and some Trickster used the Lie spell to tell me I was always afraid of Chaos...

I might be afraid, but it wouldn't stop my duty, or lessen the adrenaline rush. So, I would plan to go into battle against Chaos while immediately casting Face Chaos to overcome my faux fear. After a few battles, I would realize I didn't actually feel the fear. Then I would go back to using those Rune Points for Impede Chaos.

YGMV

[PhilHibbs]

41 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In any case, it's a horribly broken spell.  It has always been broken.

Broken as intended.

[Lordabdul]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:47 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Tell a Humakti "Your geas about where you can't wear armor has shifted from legs to arms", and sure, when he puts on leg armor he will realize that it was a lie... far too late. 

 

13 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Imagine the target is a Chalana Arroy.  And the Trickster says "Chalana Arroy commands you to kill that sleeping baby".

 

These two examples are fun!   But in my opinion, Lie doesn't rewrite everything you know about the world in one sentence, any more than it has mind control powers.  So while the target would indeed totally believe, at first, that Humakt or Chalana Arroy have said this, they wouldn't suddenly forget what they know about their deities and cults, or about themselves.

For example, the Healer might believe that Chalana Arroy commands this horrible act, but would still be totally shocked at it. This would go against everything they know about their deity, and, more importantly, against their entire personality. They initiated into this cult partially (or entirely) because they have some Passions or other personality traits that make them compassionate and caring enough to want to dedicate their life to healing. Upon hearing this, they would be incredibly upset, and some inner turmoil would probably erupt in their core being. As a GM I might ask an opposed roll of Passions or Runes or something. Most likely it would end up with the Healer running to their temple, asking "wtf?", or casting Divination, or some other similar course of action. Or they might plain refuse to do it, having a crisis of faith that might have them believe they're on the verge of quitting their cult because it turns out their deity is fucked up.

Last detail: it's important that the trickster is impersonating the correct person in addition to using the Lie spell... or have a good story prepared. Saying that "Chalana Arroy commands to kill that sleeping baby" is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't shield the Trickster from follow-up questions. How do they know? Did Chalana Arroy speak to them? How is that possible? And so on.  That's why Lies that are more in the form of "I heard this" or "I saw that" are much better because they don't tend to have a lot of hard-to-answer follow-up questions.

 

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Broken as intended.

Heh, yes.

[soltakss]

On 12/5/2020 at 2:52 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I would not punish the Humakti who was lied to about his geas. YGMV.

I would.

Anyone stupid enough to believe an Eurmali telling them about a change in their geas deserves to be punished. 

I wouldn't make their sword shatter, though.

On 12/5/2020 at 2:52 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If a Humakti was captured, placed into metal armor, and force fed cooked vegetables (against those geas), would the God punish him?

Yes.

A geas is a geas and it doesn't matter how or why it was broken.

The penalty should be not as harsh as someone deliberately breaking the geas, though.

A better use of Lie would be "No, that isn't bird, it's goat", then sharing a bird-meal.

19 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Imagine the target is a Chalana Arroy.  And the Trickster says "Chalana Arroy commands you to kill that sleeping baby".

Then the Chalana Arroy Healer has a choice. Either obey a commend that seems to be coming from Chalana Arroy or don't and suffer the consequences. Not killing the baby means that you have obeyed cult restrictions but disobeyed a command from Chalana Arroy.

You go to your priestess and tell of your sin of breaking the command and accept the consequences. Or, you go to your priestess and tell her that you obeyed the command but, in doing so, broke cult restrictions.

Either way, there is good roleplaying mileage.

 

[Akhôrahil]

30 minutes ago, soltakss said:

A geas is a geas and it doesn't matter how or why it was broken.

I wonder exactly how bathing is defined for the Yelmalio geas. Do you bathe if someone tosses you into the Zola Fel?

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder exactly how bathing is defined for the Yelmalio geas. Do you bathe if someone tosses you into the Zola Fel?

And how compatible is that geas with "never seek shelter from a storm" if that acts as a shower?

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder exactly how bathing is defined for the Yelmalio geas. Do you bathe if someone tosses you into the Zola Fel?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bathe?s=t says:

bathe

 

verb (used with object), bathed, bath·ing.

to immerse (all or part of the body) in water or some other liquid, for cleansing, refreshment, etc.

to wet; wash.

to moisten or suffuse with any liquid.

verb (used without object), bathed, bath·ing.

to take a bath or sunbath.

to swim for pleasure.

 

So, according to the first definition, yes and no, for the whole or part of the body is being immersed in water, but not for cleansing, refreshment etc.

 

What would actually happen is that you would get out, go to your Priest and argue your case.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

And how compatible is that geas with "never seek shelter from a storm" if that acts as a shower?

One of the PCs in our RQ2 campaign had Never Seek Shelter from Storm and was surprised by acid rain, part of Ragnaglar's Breath, so he quickly stripped off his iron armour, tossed it to another PC who was running for shelter and stood their hoping that his shield 4 lasted until the shower finished.

I dread to think what would have happened if he had also had Never Bathe.

[Baron Wulfraed]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder exactly how bathing is defined for the Yelmalio geas. Do you bathe if someone tosses you into the Zola Fel?

Were you carrying the components of soap-making at the time?

I'd think merely getting wet would not qualify (what, are you going to cower in a tent during a cloudy day with a chance of rain; refuse to ford a stream on horseback because you might get splashed).

And then there is the practice of using scented oils rubbed over the body and subsequently scraped off to carry away dirt -- which is a form of "bathing".

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

what, are you going to cower in a tent during a cloudy day with a chance of rain

That is exactly what Yelmalians do, in my experience, whether or not they have such geases.

[Lordabdul]

15 hours ago, soltakss said:

Anyone stupid enough to believe an Eurmali telling them about a change in their geas deserves to be punished. 

To expand on that statement, this is of course one of the biggest issue people may disagree on : that the Lie spell makes you believe what the caster is saying, but doesn't make you forget who the caster is. So on the one hand you totally believe that Humakt has said, one way or another, that your geas has changed... but on the other hand you are still aware that it's a Trickster delivering the news. And you should always take the word of a Trickster with a grain of salt...

This is why I was saying earlier that the Trickster should be as careful about the wording of the Lie as they are of who they are impersonating (if they do impersonate someone) as they do it. In most cases, without any disguise or illusion, they will be easily identifiable as a Trickster -- from the tattoos to the clownish body paint, to the inside-out clothing or whatever other silly dress-up they have. I think someone already mentioned it : the best Lie (capitalized) is a good lie (lowercase). It shouldn't obviously be a lie (i.e. something that goes against their other assumptions that are unaffected by the spell), otherwise even though they believe you, the target(s) will still hesitate to act upon it, seek more information, or whatever.

I could imagine some other people wanting to make Lie more powerful by also making the target "forget" that they're listening to a Trickster, but I think that way lie (ho ho) the more broken or, at least, trickier-to-handle situations for the GM. I guess it also depends on how silly the groups want their games to be... my guess is that this should be discussed during session zero. Either way, remember that one of the golden rules of RQ is that if the PCs can do it, so can the NPCs!  Whatever the GM rolls with, remember to warn the players that it will come back!

Edited December 7, 2020 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I could imagine some other people wanting to make Lie more powerful by also making the target "forget" that they're listening to a Trickster, but I think that way lie (ho ho) the more broken or, at least, trickier-to-handle situations for the GM. I guess it also depends on how silly the groups want their games to be... my guess is that this should be discussed during session zero. Either way, remember that one of the golden rules of RQ is that if the PCs can do it, so can the NPCs!  Whatever the GM rolls with, remember to warn the players that it will come back!

it makes sense.

Post after post, I ask myself if this spell should not be allowed for npc only, or very very cautiously to a player. My "fear munchkin" passion has raised to 98% now ...

 

Back to the humakti

If I were the player, facing this issue, depending the character I would : "the character" / (the player)

- the humakti is a dumb : "ok I will look for an iron smith to gain a new armor protecting the part previously forbidden" (I hope the character's friends will ask why and demonstrate that is false)

- the humakti is very cautious: "ok I take the new geas, but Toto [the lier] may have misunderstood the god will, so I will continue to follow the previous one too (I hope the friends will act too, but also the next geas I will fix the situation, so both geas will become true geas)

- the humakti is fanatic: "ok I take the new geas,and to prove my devotion I will continue to follow the previous one too (I hope only the next geas I will fix the situation, so both geas will become true geas)

- the humakti is suspicious: "ok I take the new geas, but knowing Toto, as soon as I  have the opportunity, I will discuss some high priest or make a divination to understand why my god changed my geas" (that means no more than one scenario with not following the geas, I hope the god will not curse me for this, but just give me a forgiveness mission)

- the humakti is suspicious and cautious (the best case) : "I take both geas and look for answer from the cult / god" (so the lie spell will be affective only for one season/scenario)

 

As a GM, if a player plays the cautious humakti, I will reward him by transforming the false geas in a true geas. Humakt is truth, Humakt is satisfied that its worshipper followed his requirement although he was mistaken, so Humakt will transform the lie in truth so after one or two seasons of test, Humakt will gift the worshipper

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/1/2020 at 10:54 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Best Lie I saw was "I'm the only person you can trust".

Howsabout?

I am not a crook!

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Glorion]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:24 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Humakt knows there was a lie, but Humakt knows too that the humakti had a chance to understand it was a lie (well... or not, but Humakt is Humakt, don't challenge the death) and the humakti failed to see the truth... So a good humakti would ask for forgiveness

I as Humakt, would accept to forgive my loyal worshipper, I would just request the humakti to

- follow his "true" geas (the one I gave him)

- follow his "new" geas (the one he believed he has)

 

I think what Humakt would do, if asked in the proper fashion and spirit, would be that the character would get the geas back, but lose the gift from it. And the spirit of retribution would only pound him once. Getting the gift back would be possible but difficult, maybe a mini heroquest or something.

[Glorion]

On 12/5/2020 at 10:19 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The more I think about it, the more I think the Lie about a geas just plain fails.  Lies about religious dogma are very tricky.

Imagine the target is a Chalana Arroy.  And the Trickster says "Chalana Arroy commands you to kill that sleeping baby".

In any case, it's a horribly broken spell.  It has always been broken.

Chalana Arroy tells you to kill a baby, that fails, unless an INT roll is fumbled. Just shifting a geas from arm to legs is perfectly possible, in no way whatsoever vs. basic Humaktism. However, the backlash to it is is strong enough that no Trickster in his right mind would do that. The Trickster would rapidly end up exceedingly dead, with Stop Resurrection cast on him too. Unfortunately, few Tricksters are really in their right mind.

As long as you have a sensible GM, I don't see the spell as any more broken than various others I can think of. Certainly a lot less broken than Sword Trance!

[Glorion]

On 12/6/2020 at 6:52 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder exactly how bathing is defined for the Yelmalio geas. Do you bathe if someone tosses you into the Zola Fel?

Nope. You are either swimming or drowning. You are not bathing, unless you start looking around for soapweed or something while you duck paddle.