Spirit world

[Jokum]

How do the spirit world differ between Waha and Daka Fal shamans? It is said the outlook is similar to everyones culture. The Rulebook gives an example for Praxian culture which is seemingly Waha based: herds etc.

Would a Daka Fal shaman see it in different way? Waha would be based on herds and surviving with clan/tribe in mundane world, Daka Fal would be considered in ancestors and  continuation of family traditions and knowledge/wisdom and ofcourse the defferentiation of Life and death. If Daka Fal shaman would see it based on this, i'll come up with only some very abstract ideas... Waha seem to be a cult for a larger society while Daka Fal seem to be almost a private cult where a shaman teaches their apprentices.

Is it possible for anyone else than a shaman to travel to Spirit world? Discorporation runespell seems to handle only the moving discorporated in mundane world. 

Also is the Land of the Dead situated in Spirit world? Are The Dead people to Be found there or somewhere in other plains? 

Would be very nice to find writings of Rune Quest world from the perspective of a shaman.

I see the Summon specific ancestor or incarnate ancestor runespells very powerful, If any ancestral Heroes are known... ...and the bloodlines go back to Grandfather Mortal...

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jokum

[David Scott]

On 11/13/2020 at 1:32 PM, Jokum said:

How do the spirit world differ between Waha and Daka Fal shamans? It is said the outlook is similar to everyones culture. The Rulebook gives an example for Praxian culture which is seemingly Waha based: herds etc.

A Praxian Daka Fal shaman would have a spirit world very similar to a waha shaman. Where a waha shaman might journey out to meet Waha himself in the Herd Guard, a Daka Fal shaman would work around the great fire at the centre of the herd and summon ancestor there among friends.

Quote

Would a Daka Fal shaman see it in different way? Waha would be based on herds and surviving with clan/tribe in mundane world, Daka Fal would be considered in ancestors and  continuation of family traditions and knowledge/wisdom and ofcourse the defferentiation of Life and death. If Daka Fal shaman would see it based on this, i'll come up with only some very abstract ideas... Waha seem to be a cult for a larger society while Daka Fal seem to be almost a private cult where a shaman teaches their apprentices.

Waha is the Culture Hero, Daka Fal is the ancestor guide, keep the clan connected with their past. For many Waha is their ancestor.

Quote

Is it possible for anyone else than a shaman to travel to Spirit world? Discorporation runespell seems to handle only the moving discorporated in mundane world.

Yes, some shaman can take others with them. They have Shamanic abilities like Spirit Traveller, Discorporate other or even Spirit Snatch. Mostly in great ceremonies, the Axix Mundi is expanded to include all but lay members and everyone is in the spirit world around the fire. Participants never wander off they know they won't return.

Quote

Also is the Land of the Dead situated in Spirit world? Are The Dead people to Be found there or somewhere in other plains?

The Land of the Dead, is a bit more complex as each great/spirit god has their own. They lie beyond Daka Fal's court of Judgement. Even Daka Fal cannot enter another god's afterlife, but he can call them out.

Quote

Would be very nice to find writings of Rune Quest world from the perspective of a shaman.

You can find more here:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7955-im-still-confused-about-spirit-travel/?tab=comments#comment-114593

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9621-gaining-shamanic-abilities/?tab=comments#comment-141711

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7955-im-still-confused-about-spirit-travel/?tab=comments#comment-114771

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11950-spirits-in-spirit-world/?tab=comments#comment-182675

Quote

I see the Summon specific ancestor or incarnate ancestor runespells very powerful, If any ancestral Heroes are known... ...and the bloodlines go back to Grandfather Mortal...

Yes, look at a specific version of this from Waha - Call Founder on page 322. A Waha shaman who is also a Daka Fal priest would be able to incarnate a Founder. This is the realm of powerful magics. The summoner would need to be powerful enough to manage it. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Scotty

[Jokum]

A scetch i made of our apprentice shaman player character - Talkil- and his npc-grandfather - Toras 

I don't know what would be characteristic for Pol Joni - Daka Fal shamans.

There are amazing photos of real world shamans by googling which i used as inspiration.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Jokum

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Jokum said:

A scetch i made of our apprentice shaman player character - Talkil- and his npc-grandfather - Toras 

I don't know what would be characteristic for Pol Joni - Daka Fal shamans.

There are amazing photos of real world shamans by googling which i used as inspiration.

That looks like an apprentice shaman to me.

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/13/2020 at 2:32 PM, Jokum said:

I see the Summon specific ancestor or incarnate ancestor runespells very powerful, If any ancestral Heroes are known... ...and the bloodlines go back to Grandfather Mortal...

I personally don’t think you have access to gods or heroes in your ancestral line, not with these spells at least. Every Heortling is going to have Heort and Vingkot in their ancestral line, but they have more important things to do. Hero-level ancestors should be cults or subcults, IMO.

[Jokum]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally don’t think you have access to gods or heroes in your ancestral line, not with these spells at least. Every Heortling is going to have Heort and Vingkot in their ancestral line, but they have more important things to do. Hero-level ancestors should be cults or subcults, IMO.

Yes, you're propably right.

I have this "trouble" all the Time: how to follow the rules of the game so we don't "accidentally" do something that would brake the game world balance?

Althought, some of the summoned random ancestors could be very powerful(5d6+6) compared to maximum human attributes. ...but that's not a deity level either.

Possible hero summoning could need a special task before it could be done. ....maybe even a heroquest level stuff.

 

[Jokum]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:25 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I personally don’t think you have access to gods or heroes in your ancestral line, not with these spells at least. Every Heortling is going to have Heort and Vingkot in their ancestral line, but they have more important things to do. Hero-level ancestors should be cults or subcults, IMO.

I found a text that confirms your thoughts. Hero level individuals are no more reqular ancestors:

"They operate as immortals instead of ancestors, and receive their own sacrifices instead of partaking of the sacrifices made to the ancestors." Hero wars- Thunder rebels, p.95

There's also a description for the ancestor's day celebration p.94-95

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jokum

[soltakss]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:45 AM, Jokum said:

I have this "trouble" all the Time: how to follow the rules of the game so we don't "accidentally" do something that would brake the game world balance?

That is easy - Stop worrying about it.

 

Very little done in a game will break game world balance. Anything your PCs do has probably already been done ten times bigger by NPCs. The units in the Dragon Pass boardgame have abilities that can destroy anything within a hex, or nearby hexes, for example. 

So, stop worrying about game balance and just enjoy the game. That's what I do.

[Charles]

1 hour ago, Jokum said:

I found a text that confirms your thoughts. Hero level individuals are no more reqular ancestors:

"They operate as immortals instead of ancestors, and receive their own sacrifices instead of partaking of the sacrifices made to the ancestors." Hero wars- Thunder rebels, p.95

There's also a description for the ancestor's day celebration p.94-95

I wouldn’t read too much into that as a guide to personal access to ancestor Heroes, as it’s more about the Heortling respect / worship of ancestors as a group or even as embodied tradition.

From some of Greg’s stories, anyone that can recite their (believable) ancestry to a Hero can learn to summon / incarnate / use their magic. However, given the disruptions of each Age, I doubt that few in the greater Dragon Pass region (and I mean almost none) can truly recite their ancestry back to the Dawn or before. But some appear to do so.

I think that there’s a bit of a trick to it 😀

I suspect that the belief of both the person and the belief of their community play a part. If an invented ancestry is kept going for a generation or two, then it becomes real. Creating ancestry to Heort or Vingkot is difficult because there are so many that would want to try, and few of these supposed ancestral lines actually match up. So general community belief works against it. Similarly with important recent heroes such as Sartar.

So if a player makes it part of their character creation then why not.

And there’s another ‘trick’ that has been used (look up Lokamayadon). An allied or bound spirit can become part of a character and that spirit can have the required ancestry 🤣

Edited December 23, 2020 by Charles

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:50 AM, Charles said:

I suspect that the belief of both the person and the belief of their community play a part. If an invented ancestry is kept going for a generation or two, then it becomes real. Creating ancestry to Heort or Vingkot is difficult because there are so many that would want to try, and few of these supposed ancestral lines actually match up. So general community belief works against it. Similarly with important recent heroes such as Sartar.

 

I definitely think that's the case. In fact, I believe that's MOSTLY the case. Few genuine genealogies have probably survived since before the Dawn, or the end of the First or Second Ages. And then there's the whole deal with the Dara Happan Emperors and their, imho, highly suspect genealogies/king listss, so I'd guess it's a Glorantha-wide thing. Which makes sense, Glorantha is all about the power of myth*, not the power of, I dunno, genetics or properly managed inheritance portfolios (unless the two fall under myth.  )

(*not that a genealogical link being real precludes it from being a myth either, of course)

[Jokum]

Any movies or animations that has any similarities with Gloranthan spirit world worth showing to players?

I'm surpriced there's no easy to find "dream" sequenses of plains and campfires...

 

And how or when does an apprentice shaman gain the spirit rune?

Edited April 7, 2021 by Jokum
...added questions.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Jokum said:

And how or when does an apprentice shaman gain the spirit rune?

They don't. The RQ Bestiary says on page 164:

Quote

All disembodied spirits are associated with the Spirit Rune.

As neither are disembodied spirits, neither have the rune, their form is Man & Beast (or Plant & Man for elves). The fetch has the spirit rune and when the shaman travels into the spirit world they swap forms. Those using Discorporation magics can temporarily separate their spirit in to the spirit world, but it's a temporary form (unless they die).

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Jokum said:

Any movies or animations that has any similarities with Gloranthan spirit world worth showing to players?

I always find Huichol yarn paintings very near the mark (and of course the basis of the spirit art in RQG). You can find some animated if you look around:

Every day in the spirit world:

 

 

 

Not Huichol, but has some great spirit landscape imagery and shows a ritual for dealing with ferocious polar bears

 

[Jokum]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

They don't. The RQ Bestiary says on page 164:

As neither are disembodied spirits, neither have the rune, their form is Man & Beast (or Plant & Man for elves). The fetch has the spirit rune and when the shaman travels into the spirit world they swap forms. Those using Discorporation magics can temporarily separate their spirit in to the spirit world, but it's a temporary form (unless they die).

The Shaman -Keronorl- of the Wild temple seems to have a spirit rune and i suppose he's human. Man 90%, spirit 75%.

In the Smoking ruins book.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Jokum

[g33k]

Also, I consider source-culture as much as Cult/Patron for Spirit-world stuff.

Praxians will almost all discorporate into a place near the center of a tribal camp, withherd-beasts all 'round & maybe a fire (likely a small fire fueled by dry dung, because wood is so rare that burning it is wasteful and "wrong.").

A shaman from Sartar might discorporate and find themselves in a big family-hearth kitchen, or a great-hall / moot, or even a "Great Temple" (but with symbologies from multiple gods, not just one), for example.

Pentan Golden Bow might find a vast grassland with the sun directly overhead... horses and tribesmen around (similar to Prax).

Etc...

[Hijabg]

I like to think about the spirit world as if it was the Internet. Most places, things and peoples will have their place there, and you'll be able to interact with some aspects of them, but you will be able to travel between them as if there was no distance. Also, depending on your cultural interface, you might see things others might not, or see them differently. There is the easily accessible part of the spirit world, with publicly accessible shrine-terminals you can unlock with the right combination. There are also parts of the spirit plane that are quite similar to the Dark Net, and that's the place an apprentice hacker might have to explore until he finds the exploits he'll need in his fight against the Bad Man. 

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Jokum said:

The Shaman -Keronorl- of the Wild temple seems to have a spirit rune and i suppose he's human. Man 90%, spirit 75%.

In the Smoking ruins book.

This is an error and I'll add it to the Corrections and Q&A, thanks for spotting it.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/cha4039-the-smoking-ruin-and-other-stories-2019/cha4039-the-smoking-ruin-and-other-stories-qa/

Edited April 8, 2021 by David Scott

[Bill the barbarian]

On 4/7/2021 at 9:56 AM, David Scott said:

I always find Huichol yarn paintings very near the mark (and of course the basis of the spirit art in RQG). You can find some animated if you look around:

Every day in the spirit world:

The Mexican stuff was great. but I have to say thanks for the inclusion of that last one from the NFB! A great use of our tax payers dollar, the NFB  has been helping me (hell a great number of Canadians) to see the world just a little differently!

Fantastic!

Edited April 10, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Jokum]

I'm planning a heroquest for our Daka Fal followers - shaman and an apprentice plus their friends and relatives. It would take place at the small Dundealosford -fort. ...my design for the fort would be the upwards spiral in air rune form, carved out of a rocky hill. I suppose there's also a willage nearby, called Dundealosford.

In our campaign the lunars corrupted the Poets Hill with lunar spirits and cursed the Dundealosford because it  didn't surrender fast enough. So, now the fort is full of ghosts still fighting against the approaching enemy and letting almost no one in. The Heroquest would be aimed to liberate the hundrets of ghosts and free the fort to be used by the living again.

I thought If the Quest would start in spirit world, but i quess that would be too complicated. ...maybe at The Daka Fal's fire. Or maybe just a symbolic reference in the middle world would do just as fine. ...possibly a big fire place in Dundealos fort itself. Getting there could be one adventure.

The HeroQuest would follow the steps of Grandfather mortal and Fleshman. So, basically it would contain many parts of the Lightbringer Quest. But i don't know what happened to Fleshman in the Underworld? I'm planning him to be left behind and judged by Daka Fal himself while others continue rescuing Yelm: A Little kid under Arachne Solaras net says Fleshman can't come back from the Underworld. Fleshman would  then be interrogated and the quest bonuses would be partly based on his answers.

Do you know any part from the myths where family and ancestors would be the central part of the story? I would add that in the quest If any proper is to be found.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Jokum
errors...

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Jokum said:

But i don't know what happened to Fleshman in the Underworld? I'm planning him to be left behind and judged by Daka Fal himself

Flesh Man BECOMES Daka Fal!

There is no judge (or perhaps Yelm was the judge, but cannot both be judge and return to the world), no one to separate where the ghosts and souls should go when Flesh Man arrives.  He takes up or finds the Mirror of Reflection (his mask), and takes on the task of hearing the cases of the dead.

Likely he must create his hall of judgment, and determine how the gods and the prayers of mortals are to speak for the dead.

Overall, lots to do to sort the world out.

[Jokum]

I thought it was Grandfather mortal who became Daka Fal.... ....and Fleshman watched Grandfather die.

Grandfather then paved the path for the dead.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Jokum

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, Jokum said:

I thought it was Grandfather mortal who became Daka Fal.... ....and Fleshman watched Grandfather die.

Yes, you're correct, getting that bit mixed up. 😜

So, we have Flesh Man following his grandfather's trail into the Underworld and finds Grandfather Mortal there.  Is he yet at that point Daka Fal, or is it Flesh Man who helps Grandfather Mortal find and put on his mask, his robes, etc?  Perhaps it is Flesh Man who shapes the way that all who come must approach Daka Fal.

 

[Jokum]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, you're correct, getting that bit mixed up. 😜

So, we have Flesh Man following his grandfather's trail into the Underworld and finds Grandfather Mortal there.  Is he yet at that point Daka Fal, or is it Flesh Man who helps Grandfather Mortal find and put on his mask, his robes, etc?  Perhaps it is Flesh Man who shapes the way that all who come must approach Daka Fal.

 

I keep up mixing all the time 😅 im not even sure If the myth is written in a few different ways. 

I quess the heroquest can jump in time and make the questers take roles according to it? So, maybe they start at Orlanths party where Death is presented to Grandfather. Then they start a journey to the Underworld with Fleshman. And finally some ancestor faces Daka Fal in his court.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Jokum said:

I'm planning him to be left behind and judged by Daka Fal himself while others continue rescuing Yelm: A Little kid under Arachne Solaras net says Fleshman can't come back from the Underworld. Fleshman would  then be interrogated and the quest bonuses would be partly based on his answers.

Continuing on with some thoughts on Flesh Man.  Assuming that he has perhaps aided Daka Fal in establishing his court and procedures (i.e. Flesh Man has honored and remembered his own Ancestor, Grandfather Mortal), Daka Fal asks Flesh Man which door he would like to go through.  Flesh Man knows the gods, but does not choose them.  Instead, he asks Daka Fal if he might find a way to come back to his own descendants, to aid them somehow.

Daka Fal, who knows the paths of the Underworld, and its denizens, directs Flesh Man to a dark, forbidding doorway.  Beyond that is the Spider of Time who waits beside a small, dark pool.  Above her are webbed cocoons, strung with silken threads and hanging from the ceiling. 

She indicates that to proceed on, his soul and the shadow of his soul must be separated.  If he agrees, she bites the two apart (or uses a knife or scissors if you prefer).  The old soul may go on to the Hall of the Ancestors.  The new/shadow soul must drink of the waters of forgetfulness.  She then wraps up the new soul in a cocoon, where it waits until summoned during birth.  Occasionally, the new soul does not drink enough of the waters and still remembers something when reborn.  But otherwise, the new soul simply feels a love for their ancestor, that part of their soul left behind.

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, Jokum said:

im not even sure If the myth is written in a few different ways. 

Of course it's written in a few different ways - it is a myth after all!

In the case of a shamanic journey along Flesh Man's path, when the shaman comes to Daka Fal's court, they might well be given a Labor - one of Flesh Man's tasks to perform.  (Think Labors of Herakles here, but something associated with the city of the Dead.  Maybe they have to quiet the Wailing Ghosts, or bring peace to the Warring Souls, or something equally unpleasant.)  If they succeed, then Daka Fal perhaps grants them a boon in relation to their ancestors.  Maybe they are allowed into the door of the Spider of Time, but must choose to drink from one of two pools - the pool of remembrance and the pool of forgetfulness (which might perhaps act as poisons to overcome).  If they fail, they awake from their shamanic trance.  But if they succeed, they find themselves in the Hall of the Ancestors - a place where they may meet any of their ancestors and potentially find a powerful ancestral spirit to ally.