Clanless initiation (and Durulz)

[Jape_Vicho]

One of my player's PC is a durulz whose village was sacked because of the duck hunt when he was around 10 and he was saved by the humakti of Indrolar's Necklace, among whom he grew up. Given that he essentially grew up on the temple, when he would have come of age, would he have been initiated as a Lismelder? Of some particular clan? I think the temple is in Goodsword lands so I think if that's the case then it would be the most fitting clan to be initiated. Do Durulz even initiate by common heortling law? If a durulz community lives in Locaem lands, are they Locaem, or do they have their particular initiations that identify them with the Durulz tribe and one of their clans?

[Ladygolem]

Don't Humakti forsake clan ties upon initiation? That could provide a convenient solution.

[jajagappa]

37 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Given that he essentially grew up on the temple, when he would have come of age, would he have been initiated as a Lismelder? Of some particular clan? I think the temple is in Goodsword lands so I think if that's the case then it would be the most fitting clan to be initiated. Do Durulz even initiate by common heortling law? If a durulz community lives in Locaem lands, are they Locaem, or do they have their particular initiations that identify them with the Durulz tribe and one of their clans?

The Durulz live in their own lands, though still part of Sartar.  They are neither of the Lismelder nor the Locaem.  The Locaem are south of the Stream, but I'm sure come to Quackford to trade with the Durulz.

As for coming of age, the Humakti temple is within Goodsword clan lands, but likely somewhat separate or severed from the clan. 

Potentially, the Durulz could come of age as part of the Goodsword clan.  He's not yet initiated into Humakt - that would happen after coming of age - and if seen as friendly to the clan, I don't see why not.  Alternately, he could be sent to Duck Point to be initiated among "his kind".  If he's likely to follow the path of Humakt subsequently, he could reasonably sever that relationship when he does so. 

[Jape_Vicho]

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Durulz live in their own lands, though still part of Sartar.  They are neither of the Lismelder nor the Locaem.  The Locaem are south of the Stream, but I'm sure come to Quackford to trade with the Durulz.

The Durulz have some lands reserved to them, but there are also some Durulz settlements outside those lands, right? . What I meant is if a handful of Durulz families lived in a village on Locaem territory, would they be considered Locaem? What about a single family in a mainly human village? 

This is threading very thin I know just wanted to hear opinions on the matter. The main point was that I feared making him too detached from sartarite society but had completely forgotten that Humakti sever their links with their clans and are voluntarily detached from society, thak you and @Ladygolem for the reminder. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Jape_Vicho

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

The Durulz have some lands reserved to them, but there are also some Durulz settlements outside those lands, right? . What I meant is if a handful of Durulz families lived in a village on Locaem territory, would they be considered Locaem? What about a single family in a mainly human village? 

This is threading very thin I know just wanted to hear opinions on the matter. The main point was that I feared making him too detached from sartarite society but had completely forgotten that Humakti sever their links with their clans and are voluntarily detached from society, thak you and @Ladygolem for the reminder. 

Ducks who live in a clan's land likely have a special mythological relationship to the Clan, and would be part of the Clan.  

This, however, is pretty uncommon.

 

[Ladygolem]

Most maps or lists I've seen seem to agree that essentially Ducks constitute their own tribe, which in many cases is treated as just another Sartarite tribe in most respects. Not all, however.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

The Durulz have some lands reserved to them, but there are also some Durulz settlements outside those lands, right? . What I meant is if a handful of Durulz families lived in a village on Locaem territory, would they be considered Locaem? What about a single family in a mainly human village? 

This is threading very thin I know just wanted to hear opinions on the matter. The main point was that I feared making him too detached from sartarite society but had completely forgotten that Humakti sever their links with their clans and are voluntarily detached from society, thak you and @Ladygolem for the reminder. 

I would say (but it is a very interesting question, I m not bringing the truth) that the fact durluz / baboon / windchild lives in a clan/tribe territory just say the clan/tribe tolerates them. They may have agreement, they may have respect or disdain but they don't share a clan ancestor, so they cannot be part of the clan. The only way I see is a ritual to adopt them and create a filiation between the durulz (or other) and the human ancestors.

That the same point in the other part : humans living (and tolerated) in uz lands are not part of the uz community. They have to be eaten transformed into uz to pretend the tribe affiliation

[g33k]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

... The only way I see is a ritual to adopt them and create a filiation between the durulz (or other) and the human ancestors ...

But then again, such rituals are part and parcel of Sartarite society, no?  We see movement between Clans and Tribes.  Marriages, exiles, new clans forming from remains of old ones, one clan merging into another, etc etc etc.

YGWV -- what will be the Most Fun for this player, for this table?

There is ample scope (even within strictest canon) to take this whichever way seems MGF'ish.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

But then again, such rituals are part and parcel of Sartarite society, no?  We see movement between Clans and Tribes.  Marriages, exiles, new clans forming from remains of old ones, one clan merging into another, etc etc etc.

yes but it means somewhere the ritual obtains the ancestor agreement. Do the ancestors accept a "bird" as a part of "their" clan ?

We coult also ask in another way:  is it important to be part of the clan or just to be considered as a friend of the clan (I m pretty sure that some xenophobic ancestor could be angry even with a tolerance, but an agreement of friendship might be easier to obtain)

 

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

YGWV -- what will be the Most Fun for this player, for this table?

that is definitly the point.

 

[Joerg]

Interesting conundrum - can you become an adult without belonging to a group that introduces you magically into adulthood?

In case of this juvenile duck, I really wonder whether the ancestors will tolerate one of the beastmen who fought them a few generations ago as their own blood and kin - it may be tolerable to have them as followers or slaves, but as family?

An initiation to the temple may work, though. Cult initiation is usually undergone after attaining adulthood, but there are cases of combined initiation. Usually the initiation is done by the clan, but having a non-human as a clan member might weaken the clan magic significantly. Having a cultist from another species in your temple is much less of a problem, and the temple can act in stead of a clan when it comes to legal representation. The clan Orlanth temple likely doubles as the legal representation of clan members, but it should be possible to separate cultist membership from kinship membership.

There may be some other species clan membership that is mythically acceptable - sapient alynxes would be full clan members, I suppose.

[Rob Darvall]

On 2/25/2021 at 3:41 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes but it means somewhere the ritual obtains the ancestor agreement. Do the ancestors accept a "bird" as a part of "their" clan ?

A "bird" from a race cursed because of their support for Orlanth? A good lawspeaker could make a case.

But then:

On 2/25/2021 at 4:42 AM, Joerg said:

I really wonder whether the ancestors will tolerate one of the beastmen who fought them a few generations ago

A good lawspeaker could make a case.

You could have both, with an argument between ancestors thrown in for more MGF.

[Nick Brooke]

Our enemies assert that Ducks are the secret overlords of the Lismelder Tribe. Just putting that out there.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Our enemies assert that Ducks are the secret overlords of the Lismelder Tribe. Just putting that out there.

Ah, so that's why Ducks smoke cigars, so that they can produce the proper smoke-filled rooms in which to dictate the actions of the Lismelder.