Backford Aeolian Campaign

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

I just wondered what the myth logic was for Styx water being dangerous.

The old Trollpak reference to her noted:

STYX – goddess of the River of Death. Mother to the oceans of the world and goddess of oaths.

Cults of Terror offers:

the River Styx heard of Vivamort’s betrayal and swore he never would cross her waters again, and to this day a drop from the Styx will destroy any vampire it touches. All the waters of the material world followed Styx’s vow

If you recall that the Death Rune originally meant Separation, then the Styx is the First Separation - the separation of water from Darkness.  She is the boundary between the two.  Therefore, Styx is the origin of Separation/Death.  And since the Death of Grandfather Mortal, crossing her completes your separation from Life back to the land of Death.

[Erol of Backford]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:28 PM, jajagappa said:

Again, why not.  But, you really, really don't want to fall in yourself, and that's a danger.  I like to play that the Styx does things to your soul and personality, like eating away your memory, your magic, etc.  As the "Garrotte of the Gods", the Styx is pure Death - if you land in it, you may simply die immediately.  If you don't, then each round you're in it, you lose your memory of skills and spells, then when those are gone, your INT and POW, and finally just your bones are left.

I really like the idea that its always changing and possibly impacts each person differently. Any map drawn will likely change, possibly even per season on the surface world?

Where would someone enter the Underworld on a Hero Quest in the Heortland as you wouldn't jump down the Syphon. Where might there be a list of Yelmelian Hero Quests? Could any be started in the Heortland? A good bit of a stretch I know...

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Any map drawn will likely change, possibly even per season on the surface world?

I wouldn't even worry about a "per season" - it may be different even as you pass through!  (I.e. you leave the Black Ash Plain to come to the Path of the Dead.  When you reach the Hangman's Tree, you take the fork to the Hills of Dead Dreams.  You search for the Fallen Star, but are unable to find it, and  find yourself once more on the Black Ash Plain.  Again you find the Path of the Dead and reach the Hangman's Tree.  Again you take the fork towards the Hill of Dead Dreams, but instead find yourself beside the River of Swords.  The Hill of Dead Dreams is nowhere to be found!  And in fact, your dream of finding it died when you went there the first time, and you will never find it again!

[M Helsdon]

On 11/27/2022 at 11:35 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Why would normal guardians who are there to stop the dead from leaving stop you from leaving Hell if you are alive? Or does it default to anyone entering Hell becoming deceased automatically? Are they all just simply jealous of the PC's being alive?

If you are in the Underworld, you are dead.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/5521-what-happens-when-youre-dead/#comment-81457

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Erol of Backford]

So a PC is alive, they kill or trick the guardians of the Hell Gate, cross the gate and they die? There is no resistance to a spell or something.

Again certain heroes are able to escape Hell and when they do the become magically not dead? Please someone explain how that happens if they emerge somehow in say the Clacking Ruins from the Underworld there are are not immediately killed for real by something there?

If there is an easy way to escape the Clanking Ruins it'll be easier to return to the Heortland Plateau then for some other means to get back to the surface world/land of the living...

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So a PC is alive, they kill or trick the guardians of the Hell Gate, cross the gate and they die? There is no resistance to a spell or something.

Again certain heroes are able to escape Hell and when they do the become magically not dead?

If (pretty much) everyone in Hell is dead, this is how I would play it (or so I say, but I am making it up as I type). Bound to be a heavily variant Glorantha.

Perhaps the first thing is to completely ditch is our IRL (modern?) conception of death. IRL, things are easy: if your body stops working for good (i.e. permanently), then you are dead; all existence is embodied — you cannot think or feel without a body — so no need to fret over post-death experience. (Certainly, Descartes and company thought of the soul as a substance distinct from the body, but let us not worry about that mess, here.)

What about the Gloranthan conception of death? Once upon a time, we might have thought it was as simple as separation of the spirit from the body (and if that meant a shaman off on their travels was dead, well, that just added to their mystique), but we now know that is not the canonical definition of death. It probably is still a good way to kill a Gloranthan in normal circumstances — it just doesn’t define death.

Maybe best to think of death legalistically — after all Daka Fal is inter alia the judge of who is dead and who is not. Death is a legal state (i.e. a status in law, like being married), and one’s status as alive or dead determines the rules (more laws) which apply to you. This has the advantages that: (a) we can argue about whose laws apply; (b) it is clearly not an important intrinsic property of a person: the dead can have bodies and thoughts and run around the place performing actions just as the living typically do; (c) laws may change arbitrarily for MGF.

So: dead is a status in law not purporting to codify or represent some natural fact about the supposedly deceased. There is no “legally dead but not really dead.” There is no natural law of life and death. There is only infernal legislation. So if you are planning a return trip to Hell, recruit a logic-chopping sage–sorceror or a devotee of Eurmal the lawyer.

As to exactly what the laws of life and death are, I am not the person to say, but we do know that according to the guardians of the various Hells:

• there are dead in the middle world (e.g. the recently dead waiting a week before reporting to Hell’s check-in desk)
• the living may not enter Hell
• if you are in Hell, you are dead
• the dead may not leave Hell (not without the right vellumwork, sealed and in triplicate)

So your papers may say you are alive once you pass the portal, or they may say that you are just out on day release (still dead) and have to return. But what if you escape? Well, you may still be dead — and agents may be dispatched to bring you back.

But what about Ethilrist, is he alive or dead? If he is alive, he certainly wasn’t permitted to leave Hell, but it may be that if you escape in any of a short list of prescribed ways and manage to stay escaped for the prescribed period — a year and a day, perhaps — you are now alive and crossed off the roll of the dead. Congratulations!

Possibly even more fun is if Ethilrist is secretly still dead — not undead, but dead — but at least one of these applies: (a) he is so tough that it is not worth the trouble trying to keep him in Hell; (b) he is such a crashing bore that no one wants him in Hell: there were so many complaints that he was exiled to the middle world; (c) he has found a legal loophole allowing him to pass freely between Hell and the middle world — but if he tells anyone what it is, he will be recalled to Hell permanently.

What about the undead? The law of death only recognises two categories — alive and dead — but unfortunately, neither is defined as ‘everyone who doesn’t fall into the other category’. The law was badly drafted. People fall through the cracks, assignable to neither category. These are the undead. The bureaucracy of Hell hates them — they make a mockery of their nice neat ledgers, and unlike the escaped dead, they cannot simply be put back in their correct ‘box’, because they do not have one. The quill pushers want them destroyed utterly — thrown into the memory hole that is Kajabor, ideally — they are an embarrassment to Hell’s civil service.

[Erol of Backford]

11 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

the dead may not leave Hell (not without the right vellumwork, sealed and in triplicate)

Who issues the paperwork!? I imagine if there is a keep of the books then possibly there spirit could be bribed by helping their descendants or doing a revenge mission for them?

This has all sorts of fun exploits to be written.

[Erol of Backford]

Are we sure one of these larger Invisible God (Churches) worship assembly areas in Heortland doesn't have a gateway of sorts to Hell in some forgotten basement, sub basement?

Old churches where bodies are interred... secret stairs under a ledgerstones sounds too fun!

[jajagappa]

23 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So a PC is alive, they kill or trick the guardians of the Hell Gate, cross the gate and they die? There is no resistance to a spell or something.

To enter into Hell, there must be Death.  Regardless of entryway, someone/thing will challenge you (though if you fall in, it is probably just the fall that kills you).  It may even be Humakt (or at least a Humakti).  It is a fight to the Death.  If you kill Humakt, of course, the requirement is satisfied and you may pass.  Potentially a sentient sacrifice suffices too.  

Now, you may in theory "live" through that.  You killed the guardian, or sacrificed something, or tricked your way in (or so you think), etc.  However, you are still in Hell, so you are also Dead (same state as the Lightbringers).  The main distinction in my mind is that the "living" still have soul within a body while the truly dead are bodiless.  

Note that if one of the PC's dies as the sacrifice to enter Hell, they can still be with you - they are just bodiless spirits instead (though much more susceptible to the pull of the Path of the Dead).  Or, if you happen to have an enchanted binding matrix you could stick their spirit in that.

23 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Again certain heroes are able to escape Hell and when they do the become magically not dead? Please someone explain how that happens if they emerge somehow in say the Clacking Ruins from the Underworld there are are not immediately killed for real by something there?

They become magically not dead when they've bodily left the Underworld (and their spirit is still attached to their body).  

If they were on a temple-related quest, then they might simply appear in part of the temple.  Maybe they find LM's Ivory Tower in the Underworld amidst the Fog of Ignorance, and by entering (and passing the threshold guardian) they find themselves in the Endless Stacks.  Eventually, they may emerge in one of LM's temples in the mundane world.  Or maybe they appear on a sunbeam cast from the Gates of Dawn.  Or they climb an Endless Stairway to emerge in one of the Earth Temples.

You might equally emerge in the Only Old One's Tarpit in the Shadowed Plateau, and the trolls may well think you are the perfect Feast offering sent by KL herself.

But, yes, expect them to be challenged.  Much safer to appear in your own temple where people recognize you. 

[Erol of Backford]

17 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They become magically not dead when they've bodily left the Underworld (and their spirit is still attached to their body).  

I suppose its important for the spirit to be attached to the body!

What about gates to the Hero Plane or Hell in Heortland beside the Foot Print or the dungeons of the Clanking Ruins? Stormwalk mountain peaks?

Edited December 2, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Joerg]

Whoever enters Hell (a certain depth of the Underworld) is Dead to the Surface World while roaming there.

At the same time, many areas (volumes, really) of the Underworld are teeming with life and fertility. Uz /Arthropod Wonderhome used to be such a region. The spawn of Drospoly and Varchulanga are as fecund as Triolina's descendants.

The winter abode of the Brown Elves or Ernalda's Underworld Palace are hotbeds of Fertlity.

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What about gates to the Hero Plane or Hell in Heortland beside the Foot Print or the dungeons of the Clanking Ruins? Stormwalk mountain peaks?

Only known access points to Hell in Heortland or immediately nearby are:  the Toe Hole in the Footprint, and the Tarpit in the Shadow Plateau.  

The top of Stormwalk Mountain, of course, borders the Hero Plane.  Bear in mind there's a Storm shrine near the top that is manned year-round to keep intruders out.  The top is subject to Extreme weather year-round, so without proper preparation, you might just die trying to get there.  But if you do you could potentially go to... 1) Inora's Palace where you can join her eternal feast (and become one of her ice mummies); 2) Storm Bull's home and roam his vast fields, or jump to the Block or the Eternal Battle or other Storm Bull myths; 3) Orlanth's Storm Home (if you have the old RQ Companion, check out p.37, the JC note #1483 re: Egil Cragbrow; or if you have Arcane Lore, see p.91, the Route to Orlanth's Longhouse, though it actually takes more than 1 day to get to the top as you need to wind around the mountain 7 times along the Spiral Path).

There's a Magic Road that leads from Colymar lands to Whitewall, the Footprint, and Stormwalk Mountain.  That traverses the Hero Plane, but passing through the Footprint of course means facing Chaos along the road (such denizens are always drawn to magical travelers).

While Belintar lives, the Hero Plane is close to the mundane world throughout the Holy Country.  It overlaps during the Tournament of Luck and Death, but shrines and temples are still close.  If you stop at the Godman Hills you might encounter the Thunder Brothers (and they might pull you into a quest).  If you stop in Smithstone, Gustbran may be at his Forge there.  Etc.  There is danger, particularly on holy days (of which there are obviously many), that you could get pulled into an impromptu quest.  That's part of the wonder of Belintar.

[nabda]

I imagine there would still be a path to hell in the deep foundation basements of whatevers left of the palace of black glass, but getting to that would be a hell of an adventure itself

[jajagappa]

59 minutes ago, nabda said:

I imagine there would still be a path to hell in the deep foundation basements of whatevers left of the palace of black glass, but getting to that would be a hell of an adventure itself

Yes, that's the Tarpit. 

[dumuzid]

the main obstacle to using the Tarpit as a magical pathway is, of course, that it's full of bubbling tar

[kalidor]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Only known access points to Hell in Heortland or immediately nearby are:  the Toe Hole in the Footprint, and the Tarpit in the Shadow Plateau.  

The top of Stormwalk Mountain, of course, borders the Hero Plane.  Bear in mind there's a Storm shrine near the top that is manned year-round to keep intruders out.  The top is subject to Extreme weather year-round, so without proper preparation, you might just die trying to get there.  But if you do you could potentially go to... 1) Inora's Palace where you can join her eternal feast (and become one of her ice mummies); 2) Storm Bull's home and roam his vast fields, or jump to the Block or the Eternal Battle or other Storm Bull myths; 3) Orlanth's Storm Home (if you have the old RQ Companion, check out p.37, the JC note #1483 re: Egil Cragbrow; or if you have Arcane Lore, see p.91, the Route to Orlanth's Longhouse, though it actually takes more than 1 day to get to the top as you need to wind around the mountain 7 times along the Spiral Path).

There's a Magic Road that leads from Colymar lands to Whitewall, the Footprint, and Stormwalk Mountain.  That traverses the Hero Plane, but passing through the Footprint of course means facing Chaos along the road (such denizens are always drawn to magical travelers).

While Belintar lives, the Hero Plane is close to the mundane world throughout the Holy Country.  It overlaps during the Tournament of Luck and Death, but shrines and temples are still close.  If you stop at the Godman Hills you might encounter the Thunder Brothers (and they might pull you into a quest).  If you stop in Smithstone, Gustbran may be at his Forge there.  Etc.  There is danger, particularly on holy days (of which there are obviously many), that you could get pulled into an impromptu quest.  That's part of the wonder of Belintar.

What a wonderful place to run adventures if we place our campaign in PRE-demise Belintar's Holy Country. I hope someday we will have a supplement about this time in Holy Country

[Joerg]

The Tarpit is located atop the Shadow Plateau, a km or so above the surrounding lands, with potentially 400 subterranean levels still above sea level. How far does the Tar reach down? Does it fill only the former upper basement of Veskarthen's spire, or does it continue below sea level?

How much were other uz (and Kitori) habitats in the Platea affected?

 

There is also the weird information about the entirety of the Plateau not being a truncated volcano but an edifice erected by Panaxles the Architect. What does that tell us about the rock face, its material, etc.? Or did Panaxles do a stunt similar to those cappadocian cave cities?

[Erol of Backford]

7 hours ago, kalidor said:

What a wonderful place to run adventures if we place our campaign in PRE-demise Belintar's Holy Country. I hope someday we will have a supplement about this time in Holy Country

Right you are Kalidor!

The last 27 pages of this tread have been about the Holy Country, Heortland and specifically Backford.

We love this place.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Please delete.  I'm having keyboard trouble tonight.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
please delete

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:15 AM, Joerg said:

The Tarpit is located atop the Shadow Plateau, a km or so above the surrounding lands, with potentially 400 subterranean levels still above sea level. How far does the Tar reach down? Does it fill only the former upper basement of Veskarthen's spire, or does it continue below sea level?

How much were other uz (and Kitori) habitats in the Platea affected?

 

There is also the weird information about the entirety of the Plateau not being a truncated volcano but an edifice erected by Panaxles the Architect. What does that tell us about the rock face, its material, etc.? Or did Panaxles do a stunt similar to those cappadocian cave cities?

If the creation of the Palace of Black glass has any RW analog, it would be a remnant volcanic core such as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiprock.snodgrass3.jpg

But not solid - instead with corridors, rooms, windows.  Lodril was forced to make them....  maybe lava tubes?  Maybe at that point the divine separated from the mundane?

As for the tarpit that is not a volcanic thing.  Other tarpits are part of petroleum bearing sedimerntary formations.  So it's magic. 

I would think that the depth of the tar is undefined except by the GM, within reason.  If it were only a couple of feet deep the Uz would have dug it out. 

So the plateau would not be a truncated volcano.  Instead it would be crustal rock with faults through which the volcano or volcanoes (magma) rose.  . 

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

Following a post by Jörg about God Forgot geography, I began thinking possibly the magic bridges in the Holy Country are actually Leonardo/Dwarf influenced designs that have massive power sources (yes like the God Learners) with Form-Set stone, bronze, etc. and that they deteriorate over time as modern structures would without maintenance. Once the enchantments run out of power the elements begin to corrode and erode...

I keep going back to Sog City in the GtG and its surely not Bronze-Age towers/architecture...

Anyone have comments that aid this discussion/direction as I like this more than some Heimdallrian Rainbow Bridge idea?

Edited December 10, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Joerg]

Those bridges were clearly Belintar's creations, IMO. 

Look at Jeff's and Kalin's vision of the City of Wonders:

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/29-the-city-of-wonders/

The terninal towers look like grown out of the ground, rather similar to the Obsidian Palace. That kind of magical construction has been demonstrated elsewhere, too, like the Pedastal (the Esrolian bridge terminus?) or later on the Building Wall.

[Erol of Backford]

No issue with the bridges being by Belintar, just the Rainbow Bridge look doesn't work for me. Maybe some sort of organic Metabolist design like the 2nd clip or even out of say something made of coral?

I opt for a cool design/construct like the Firth Bridge as I said. YGWV

  

[Erol of Backford]

From TT12 there was a note on the Little Pothelm Crusade against the Two-Hook Bandits of the Upper Bandori. Could it be warped into something related to the Uncertain Woods and bandits therein (knowing this is non canonical)?

I would say it occurs about 1600 or just after the fall of Sartar to the Lunars, maybe 1604-5?

What would these bandits be? Orlanthi hillmen? Could there be some Trolls amongst them? Maybe they inhabit some old Elven ruins in the Uncertain Woods discussed earlier?

They may just be thugs from Refuge as the southern edge of the Uncertain Woods is about 20 miles from Refuge? 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Erol of Backford]

I missed this before but when looking at TT12 p.22 (nocanon) the notes show the HQ for the House of Black Arkat in Jansholm.

Jaja, when might you show a sketch map of what you were working on?