Reconciling Maps for Apple Lane

[Bren]

I'm running Defending Apple Lane this coming weekend and I'm trying to reconcile the various maps that are available. The black and white map from my RQ3 Apple Lane module and attractive semi-3D map on pages 70-71 of  the Gamemaster Adventures are easy to match up. The problem is with the map in the PDF of the Gamemaster Adventures (CHA0429 GM map pack page 4). This map is labeled "Apple Lane Orchards" and it includes locations for the 5 tenant farms (1. Rastolf, 2. Ivo Stone Brook, 3. Rotroot, 4. Caleb the Black, and 5. Kalla). While it is nice to know where these tenant farms are located and to see the areas for the hides of land, I can't figure out how to align the roads and directions of this map with the map on pages 70-71.

Problem #1. None of the maps indicate compass directions.

Problem #2. The GM Adventures map on pages 70-71 (and the older RQ3 map) both show three roads leading into and out of Apple Lane. The Apple Lane Orchards map has four roads. So which roads on the Apple Lane map match up to the Apple Lane Orchards map? The Apple Lane map has one road marked #3. The Locations key identifies this as "North Street." Which road on the Apple Lane Orchards map is supposed to be "North Street?"

Problem #3. The two maps don't appear to have same number or arrangement of buildings in the central ares of the hamlet of Apple Lane. Is there any way to reconcile the two?

Can anyone help explain this?

[Arcadiagt5]

It doesn’t help that the isometric layout of the “map” in the GM Adventures Pack is more of a picture than anything, and doesn’t have anything approximating a scale. I think I found a useful map in the Jonstown Compendium, but I don’t have a link handy (at lunch on the iPad ATM). I've run the adventure twice and have done a write up on my blog - I don’t think I'm allowed to post a link here but google “Pirates of the Burley Griffin” & “Of Plans and Consequences” and you should find it. 

[Bren]

I'll check it out, thanks.

I don't find the isometric map to be too much of a problem. The way I scaled it in Roll20 the side of the Tin Inn to the left when facing the gate, has very close to the same length as I get for the isometric view of Tin Inn alone and about the same relative distance as the Tin Inn on my RQ3 Apple Lane map. That's not to say Apple Lane maps are free from scale issues. My RQ3 map has a scale of 1/16" = 5 meters, which would give the Tin Inn an 80m frontage (nearly the length of an American football field). Gringle's Pawnshop has similar scale issues. The cardstock map that is included has a scale of (roughly) 3 cm = 5 meters which makes the Pawn Shop 55 meters long, which again seems too large given the contents of and purpose for many of the rooms. But at least the detail map yields the same distance on the room map and the village map.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Bren said:

Problem #1. None of the maps indicate compass directions.

The oldest map from the RQ2 Apple Lane scenario pack does have a compass. As you might expect, North Street goes north, so that will let you orient the RQ3 and RQG maps.

Quote

Problem #2. The GM Adventures map on pages 70-71 (and the older RQ3 map) both show three roads leading into and out of Apple Lane. The Apple Lane Orchards map has four roads. So which roads on the Apple Lane map match up to the Apple Lane Orchards map? The Apple Lane map has one road marked #3. The Locations key identifies this as "North Street." Which road on the Apple Lane Orchards map is supposed to be "North Street?"

This is trickier... I think the Apple Lane Orchards is just completely wrong -- the 4 roads, the orientation, I can't make it fit the other maps.

AFAICT the "North Street" is actually a misleading name. The road between Runegate and Jonstown is, overall, going west to east. But does an "S" shaped bend around Apple Lane: coming from Runegate (travelling east), the road bends southward, enters Apple Lane from the North (via "North Street") and then exits it eastward, to continue towards Jonstown. I think the other exit (to the west) leads to Asborn's Stead (see the Colymar Lands map) and probably catches a trail going south from there to Clearwine Fort.

Take this with a grain of salt though because I agree it's tricky to figure out how it all fits.

Quote

Problem #3. The two maps don't appear to have same number or arrangement of buildings in the central ares of the hamlet of Apple Lane. Is there any way to reconcile the two?

I don't know what you mean -- I see the same buildings with the same rough arrangments.

Note however that more than a decade (in game) passed between the two maps. The RQ2/3 Apple Lane is pre-Dragonrise, and things have changed. That's why, in RQG, Gringle's Pawnshop and Piku's house are in ruins, for instance.

Edited April 27, 2021 by lordabdul

[D]

when i was planning the layout of Apple Lane for building it in unreal engine, I used the RQ2 version and ended up with Gringles being 40m by 18m and used that scale for the rest of the map. I think the south road that the orchard map shows branches off of the west road before it gets to Apple Lane, the scale on this map starts at 1 not 0 which is odd. 

[RandomNumber]

10 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

 “Pirates of the Burley Griffin”

Flew over the Burley Griffin today courtesy of an air elemental in the form of a flying Kangaroo and pleased to report no Pirates in sight

[David Scott]

I used the RQ3 map so the players could draw on it. I moved the scale for ease in lining it up on Roll20 and squiggled through the two ruined buildings to show they are broken.

7 hours ago, D said:

I used the RQ2 version and ended up with Gringles being 40m by 18m and used that scale for the rest of the map.

Roughly the same for me.  I used- Dario's Tusk Riders are excellent - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/312542/Corallos-Zenith-Counters-Tusk-Riders (as are all of his counters).

Here's the centre part of the map (after the players had finished), the tusk riders were tiny at the scale.

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by David Scott

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Bren said:

Problem #3. The two maps don't appear to have same number or arrangement of buildings in the central ares of the hamlet of Apple Lane. Is there any way to reconcile the two?

Bodge it. Drop the RQ2 map onto the new one:

[CharloixBrooKiller]

My god...Apple Lane.   I think I first played Apple Lane in either '77 or '78.    RQ still had defense back then!  LOL

 

[Arcadiagt5]

5 hours ago, RandomNumber said:

Flew over the Burley Griffin today courtesy of an air elemental in the form of a flying Kangaroo and pleased to report no Pirates in sight

Ahh but we're sneaky that way. Besides, what sort of pirates would we be if we didn’t hide from those pesky air elementals? 

[Bren]

14 hours ago, lordabdul said:

The oldest map from the RQ2 Apple Lane scenario pack does have a compass. As you might expect, North Street goes north, so that will let you orient the RQ3 and RQG maps.

The RQ3 left off the compass, though it was included on the floor plan for Gringles, so I drew it in on my village map. Sadly the lack of a compass seems to have carried over to RQG.

14 hours ago, lordabdul said:

This is trickier... I think the Apple Lane Orchards is just completely wrong -- the 4 roads, the orientation, I can't make it fit the other maps.

AFAICT the "North Street" is actually a misleading name. The road between Runegate and Jonstown is, overall, going west to east. But does an "S" shaped bend around Apple Lane: coming from Runegate (travelling east), the road bends southward, enters Apple Lane from the North (via "North Street") and then exits it eastward, to continue towards Jonstown. I think the other exit (to the west) leads to Asborn's Stead (see the Colymar Lands map) and probably catches a trail going south from there to Clearwine Fort.

Take this with a grain of salt though because I agree it's tricky to figure out how it all fits.

I don't know what you mean -- I see the same buildings with the same rough arrangments.

Note however that more than a decade (in game) passed between the two maps. The RQ2/3 Apple Lane is pre-Dragonrise, and things have changed. That's why, in RQG, Gringle's Pawnshop and Piku's house are in ruins, for instance.

It is reassuring that others have the same issues I have with the Apple Lane Orchards map.

I think you are wrong that North Street leads to Runegate. Page 11 of the RQ3 copy of Apple Lane has a map "The Apple Lane Region" that shows a road going east and west through Apple Lane. To the west it leads to Runegate Fort. To east it leads to Redbird Fort. There is also a dashed line (presumably a trail) that goes north possibly leading to Black Altar. No roads or trails are marked going to the south. I can't access my scanner, but once I can I'll post it. I think North Street is intended to go north into Gejay Hills not to Runegate.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Bodge it. Drop the RQ2 map onto the new one:

Though a kludge it does seem like the best solution. And it answers the question of what roads on the village map are which on the Orchards map. Thanks. I'll try editing a copy of my map to do exactly that.

[Scornado]

The Apple Lane Orchards map is nice but just does not match the village map or the smaller scale map of Colymar Lands in the GM pack.  I am slowly making a replacement in Campaign Cartographer so that the Thane knows what he holds.  I am a bit anal with maps though.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

I think you are wrong that North Street leads to Runegate. Page 11 of the RQ3 copy of Apple Lane has a map "The Apple Lane Region" that shows a road going east and west through Apple Lane. To the west it leads to Runegate Fort. To east it leads to Redbird Fort. There is also a dashed line (presumably a trail) that goes north possibly leading to Black Altar. No roads or trails are marked going to the south. I can't access my scanner, but once I can I'll post it. I think North Street is intended to go north into Gejay Hills not to Runegate.

Redbird Fort is on the way to Jonstown, so I think we're talking about roughly the same thing. See here:

Note how the road going to Runegate comes out N/NW from Apple Lane, and the road to Red Bird comes out E/SE. You can basically overlay, say, the RQ3 map on top an it lines up:

The only reason I mentioned Jonstown instead of the closer Red Bird is because the Apple Lane Orchards map in RQG mentions "To Jonstown" to the east, but it's presumably going there through Red Bird.

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

Bodge it. Drop the RQ2 map onto the new one:

Following my own interpretation, it would look like this:

But really the only way to make all maps work together is to almost completely ignore this "Apple Lane Orchards Map" -- and only take from it a general idea of the surroundings.

I'm very probably wrong though and you all should follow the recommendations from the guy who works at Chaosium 🙂   My methodology prioritized the Colymar Lands map's road as the guiding element, and the fact that in RQG only "North Street" is explicitly named (unlike RQ2/3 also designating "South Street"), which I interpreted as "North Street is the most important route through Apple Lane"..... but these are possibly bad choices, and David's solution is much simpler 😄 

(Edit: my double-guessing tells me maybe North Street is the only one named in RQG just because it *has* to be named because it's directly referenced in the adventure...)

Edited April 27, 2021 by lordabdul

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Following my own interpretation, it would look like this:

TBH, go with what works for you.

On 4/27/2021 at 1:17 AM, Bren said:

Can anyone help explain this?

I'd like to remind everyone, there's another map!

It's in Return to Apple Lane, Sartar Companion (2009), it's available separately here.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'd like to remind everyone, there's another map!

It's in Return to Apple Lane, Sartar Companion (2009), it's available separately here.

Oh that's interesting!   Especially because it's a map that keeps singling out North Street as the only named street, just like the RQ3 map! Which implies that it's indeed the more important street! I'm not completely crazy! Although I do use a lot of exclamation points!

(note that I originally interpreted North Street as the street that goes up the map and exits the frame at the top, but based on the old RQ2 map, I get the feeling that in fact North and South Streets are just the two halves of the oval around Apple Lane, i.e. North Street goes past the thane manor and the Uleria temple and the weaponmaster's hall, and South Street goes past the stables, the tin inn, gringle's pawnshop, and the temple to all deities... which would invalidate my theory... oh well, it's not very important which way is which anyway as long as you're consistent)

Edited April 28, 2021 by lordabdul

[Bren]

On 4/27/2021 at 6:47 PM, lordabdul said:

Redbird Fort is on the way to Jonstown, so I think we're talking about roughly the same thing.

I understand what you meant and I think I may like the overlay you did better, but it does conflict with the Apple Lane Region map I mention. Here's what that one looks like. Note the dashed line to the north and the solid lines to the east (Redbird Fort) and west (Runegate Fort).

Aside from a complete redrawing, I think you may have the best way to marry the two maps together.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Bren
add map

[Bren]

On 4/27/2021 at 4:47 PM, Scornado said:

The Apple Lane Orchards map is nice but just does not match the village map or the smaller scale map of Colymar Lands in the GM pack.  I am slowly making a replacement in Campaign Cartographer so that the Thane knows what he holds.  I am a bit anal with maps though.

I resemble that remark.

[Bren]

Oh one more thing, I forgot to mention problem #4, which is inherent only to the Orchards map. Don't know how many folks have paid attention to the scale on the map (which is measured in kilometers), but were it correct then Swanston would need to be included on the map. Instead of 1 km increments, I changed the scale to 0.1 km increments. Which is a pretty easy edit.

[Scorus]

Use the Orchards map as a good map of some other village. It is definitely NOT Apple Lane!

[narsilion]

BTW, is really Gringle's Pawnshop this big? On your maps it is longer than 50m. To put it into scale, White House is 26,1 x 51,2 m. Moreover, when you find plans of pawnshop, things inside are really big, like 4m beds etc. Just like on this picture, i think its from finnish edition.
 

[Squaredeal Sten]

Yes. Gringle"s in the original RQ2 Apple Lane was always unnecessarily big.  If I were you I would re - scale it down.  That's not likely to be an issue with the original adventure.  And the changes over the editions reflect improved production standards, so originalism is probably not helpful. 

You'll also note that the people in Apple Lane changed from RQ2 to post Dragonrise as well as the buildings, incorporating the history from the Heroquest Sartar book and even a  nod to Griffin Mountain in the GM pack  adventure hooks,  plus generational change. It is interesting to read through the various versions and see varous authors' tool marks on the village.  Apple Lane's history of the Lunar occupation actually makes a neat background story. 

And when running  the Six Seasons campaign books I ran my players through sme of that HQ  Sartar book Apple Lane adventure , so it was very nice to have it all and it worked out seamless.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Nod. not mod. Spelling / typing.

[narsilion]

I've read Six Seasons on Andrews blog, and i like it. Maybe for the future. Now i need some oneshot to present Runequest to players in Poland. RQ was never published here. And a lot of players im my club are interested in OSR and history of the hobby. So i've choosen Apple Lane, as it was published in '78.

I have another issue with maps of Apple Lane: proximity. Tinn Inn is no more than 70 meters away. If some baboons began to batter the roof in the middle of the night, in a few minutes we would have a rally from the half of the village (screaming "damn, Gringle, stop your f** noises, we can't sleep!") and the problem how to defend the building would resolve itself 🙂

Edited February 6, 2023 by narsilion

[David Scott]

11 minutes ago, narsilion said:

I've read Six Seasons on Andrews blog, and i like it. Maybe for the future. Now i need some oneshot to present Runequest to players in Poland. RQ was never published here. And a lot of players im my club are interested in OSR and history of the hobby. So i've choosen Apple Lane, as it was published in '78.

I have another issue with maps of Apple Lane: proximity. Tinn Inn is no more than 70 meters away. If some baboons began to batter the roof in the middle of the night, in a few minutes we would have a rally from the half of the village (screaming "damn, Gringle, stop your f** noises, we can't sleep!") and the problem how to defend the building would resolve itself 🙂

Don't forget the Distraction, many years ago my players never even noticed the baboons... It's possible that other villagers would rush to help, but I had all the useful ones off with Gringle. It's also dark...

Have fun with it. 

[narsilion]

I think all the useful ones will be off with sheriff, hunting the outlaws (somebody noticed them near Apple Lane). This way outlaws will be acknowledged before they enter the story, village will be conveniently calm and empty, and it will be somehow reasonable why Gringle hired players (becouse all the useful ones are hunting outlaws)

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:14 AM, narsilion said:

..... I have another issue with maps of Apple Lane: proximity. Tinn Inn is no more than 70 meters away. If some baboons began to batter the roof in the middle of the night, in a few minutes we would have a rally from the half of the village (screaming "damn, Gringle, stop your f** noises, we can't sleep!") and the problem how to defend the building would resolve itself 🙂

 Apple Lane does not seem to have many combatants nor a functional militia in any of its iterations.  In the Original apple Lane you have the "sheriff" / thane and that's about it.  The folks at the Tin Inn seem most likely to bar their gate in case of an unidentified threat.  In the Heroquest (now Questworld) Sartar book,

Spoiler

the Sheriff is killed, that's part of the plot.  If the Adventurers have taken the adventure hook, they will fight the Lunars - but one inescapable outcome will be for those buildings marked as ruined in the GM pack, to be made ruins.

In the Apple Lane adventure in the RQiG GM Pack, the Adventurers are meant to defend an even more depleted Apple Lane, and there is no thane / sheriff.   And one of the minor hooks in that book is a suggestion that the Adventurers may try to form a militia from the various tenant residents (most of whom are tenant apple farmers, and most not born in the local clan). 

It seems to me that Apple Lane does not have a wyter to lead the residents to stick together and defend each other.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
capitalization, typing/spelling.