Any precedent for sub-tribes in Sartar?

[Scorus]

Is there any precedent for a group of clans to be organized into some kind of sub-tribe (or super-clan) with a leader inside a larger tribe? I don't just mean a marriage triarchy, but an actual organized group of clans, each of which has their own chief, with a leader and a wyter of their own who are also part of a tribe like Colymar, Malani, Cinsina, etc.?

[Leingod]

I'm pretty sure a group of clans like that would just split off and make their own tribe.

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, Scorus said:

Is there any precedent for a group of clans to be organized into some kind of sub-tribe (or super-clan) with a leader inside a larger tribe? I don't just mean a marriage triarchy, but an actual organized group of clans, each of which has their own chief, with a leader and a wyter of their own who are also part of a tribe like Colymar, Malani, Cinsina, etc.?

The nearest to this would be the clans clustered around small settlements. Runegate is probably the easiest example to find in the adventures book. With the Enhyli, Lonisi, and Narri clans. Apple Lane is a smaller example with the Hiording and Varmandi (thane appointed by the Queen).

[AndrewTBP]

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The nearest to this would be the clans clustered around small settlements. Runegate is probably the easiest example to find in the adventures book. With the Enhyli, Lonisi, and Narri clans. Apple Lane is a smaller example with the Hiording and Varmandi (thane appointed by the Queen).

Taraling. 😉

The Lonisi were destroyed, triggering the Taral War. 
Why, yes, the Narri were the centre of my last 2 HeroQuest games. 

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, AndrewTBP said:

Taraling.

Good point, it was a too quick cut and paste.

[Darius West]

On 6/27/2021 at 12:34 AM, Scorus said:

Is there any precedent for a group of clans to be organized into some kind of sub-tribe (or super-clan) with a leader inside a larger tribe? I don't just mean a marriage triarchy, but an actual organized group of clans, each of which has their own chief, with a leader and a wyter of their own who are also part of a tribe like Colymar, Malani, Cinsina, etc.?

This is called a Tribal Faction, and they occur as political alliances within tribal confederations in order to push certain agendas.  For example if you have a clan with a great Issaries temple, another with a Great Chalana Arroy Temple, and one with a Great Lhankor Mhy temple, they may group together to try to rein in the warlike clans and encourage the tribe to take a more peaceful and civilized direction.  Factions may form to deny one clan the Kingship, or promote a particular King.  Some may simply form a power bloc with a couple of other clans to promote their own interests above those of other clans, forcing the other clans to pay bribes (tribute) for their support in a vote. Sometimes clans that are not getting justice will form a Faction. Sometimes these clans will split off and form their own tribal confederation if relations sour further.

On the other hand, sometimes a clan that is very well run can grow large enough to need to split, and potentially split again within a decade, forming 3 clans, the original and 2 more, likely smaller clans.  Normally such splits are acrimonious, but that is not necessarily always the case.

There is no reason why a clan cannot have its own wyter, and most will and do.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by Darius West

[Nick Brooke]

Triaties. They're an ancient structure that's described in "King of Sartar" (and possibly elsewhere): a cluster of three exogamous clans, ideally/originally in the same tribe. Clan A's men traditionally marry women from Clan B; Clan B's men marry women from Clan C; Clan C's men marry women from Clan A; that way nobody will accidentally end up in an incestuous / inbred relationship. You get gnarly stuff happening if the clans of a triaty end up in different tribes, or when the Chieftain of Clan A falls in love with a woman from Clan C, and so on and so forth. But it's a structure that links clans below tribal level.

There's also obvious stuff like: the ruling clan of the Malani are a bunch of assholes who lord it over all the other clans in that tribe, as sovereign overlords backed up by the power of DEATH and a pillager's attitude to tribute exaction. Not that I'm prejudiced or anything. 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Triaties. 

Edited in KoS 2nd edition in some places (but not all) to Triarchies.

 

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Edited in KoS 2nd edition in some places (but not all) to Triarchies.

What can I say? I'm old-school.

[Scorus]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Triaties. They're an ancient structure that's described in "King of Sartar" (and possibly elsewhere): a cluster of three exogamous clans, ideally/originally in the same tribe. Clan A's men traditionally marry women from Clan B; Clan B's men marry women from Clan C; Clan C's men marry women from Clan A; that way nobody will accidentally end up in an incestuous / inbred relationship. You get gnarly stuff happening if the clans of a triaty end up in different tribes, or when the Chieftain of Clan A falls in love with a woman from Clan C, and so on and so forth. But it's a structure that links clans below tribal level.

There's also obvious stuff like: the ruling clan of the Malani are a bunch of assholes who lord it over all the other clans in that tribe, as sovereign overlords backed up by the power of DEATH and a pillager's attitude to tribute exaction. Not that I'm prejudiced or anything. 

Could a Triaty have its own wyter? In addition to the wyter of the individual clans and the tribe they are a part of?

[Oracle]

18 hours ago, Scorus said:

Could a Triaty have its own wyter? In addition to the wyter of the individual clans and the tribe they are a part of?

From Runequest:Roleplaying in Glorantha, p.286:

Quote

A wyter is the spirit of a community. It is a magical entity linked to its members and a leader, conferred with special powers and abilities. The community may vary, and wyters have been associated with everything from villages, military regiments, temples, clans, tribes, and cities. Any community with an associated Passion has a wyter. A wyter is a powerful resource for a community, but is also the community’s most
precious treasure. Without the wyter the community does not exist, the bonds of fraternity dissolving. Its members will become alienated from one another, moving apart, perhaps even leaving the area.

Based on this description I would assume, that a Triaty could very well have a wyter. The only condition would be, that all the members of the Triaty have a strong common Passion ...

[Sir_Godspeed]

A marriage-centric Wyter sounds kinda cool. Like a nymph or Earth goddess or something.

[Alex]

On 6/26/2021 at 3:34 PM, Scorus said:

Is there any precedent for a group of clans to be organized into some kind of sub-tribe (or super-clan) with a leader inside a larger tribe? I don't just mean a marriage triarchy, but an actual organized group of clans, each of which has their own chief, with a leader and a wyter of their own who are also part of a tribe like Colymar, Malani, Cinsina, etc.?

Another possibility is some sort of "asymmetric devolution" -- more correctly asymmetric federation -- arrangement, where you have a tribe where a full-fledged triaty as a member of the tribe collectively.  Feasible if the triaty is relatively small, so in effect more of a "sub-clans" situation, however they choose to regard it themselves.

As @Leingodsays, if you just have a "subsets" arrangement, that's pretty much necessarily unstable.  "In times of crisis, follow chosen leaders."  Well, which one?  You have the small-tribe king and the big-tribe king to contend with, in addition to any of the usual command-and-control conflicts.  There has to be some sort of defined relationship between the roles for it to be in any way workable.