Sorcerer occupation

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So game mechanically, what would it look like to have a system for creating a familiar, that presented clear advantages (otherwise why bother), but does not tip the balance such that Malkioni aren't the best sorcerers? Which we know that they are. So "best sorcerers" stems from something big enough that "having a familiar" really doesn't register on the scale.

But I think to be truly satisfying it has to be something that is incompatible with having a familiar. They don't have familiars, but they have X, which is incompatible but better.

It seems to me a familiar is an inherent advantage; you can cast spells at twice the rate, from two locations. You are twice as hard to surprise, capture or incapacitate, and can take it in turns sleeping. And probably the familiar can fly, sneak, fight or something else useful.

A basic system would be something like raising your Magic Rune gives you powers (or gaining magical powers raises your Magic Rune). Each such power has a rating; the sum of such power ratings you have cannot exceed your score in the Magic Rune.

A familiar would be a 5 or 10 point power, and so would come at the cost of something else roughly equivalent, say conditional unaging. Different magical traditions would tend to provide access to different powers in different orders.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by radmonger

[metcalph]

Rather than have actual sorcery spells to make a familiar, I would (ab)use Caste Magic and rule that the Malkioni (not just their sorcerors!) is manifesting a portion of their ideal self.  So they'll be like material fetches.  They won't give additional free INT or POW but they can cast any magic that the caster knows.  

The Seshnegi wizards will shun this practice while tolerating it in their warriors (who would have familiars of their beast order - wolf, lion, serpent etc). Wealthy Seshnegi farmers and women would have small household goblins that grumble through all their tedious tasks.  The Noble familiars range from cute pets to highly magical guardians.

Most Lokslami use their familiars like the Seshnegi farmers.  But their leaders are fond of using flying creatures such as the swallow to represent the soul's desire to escape the corrupt world. They use the familiars as an aid to heroquesting and reaching the Hidden Mover.  

The Brithini do not have familiars as it is incompatible with their immortality.

The familiars start off small but can be grown through further caste magic enchantments.  If a familiar dies or is killed then it can be re-manifested through POW sacrifices and the help of a friendly wizard.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Malkioni have a connection to the otherworld through what... community support? Does that community support manifest as a quasi-spiritual entity? (If only there was a Gloranthan word for a "community spirit"!) Maybe this pool of power that they can tap into acts in some ways like a familiar, but creating one blocks that spiritual pathway.

So rather than having an individual familiar, a parish wizard has a connection to the wyter-equivalent that takes in the worship energies?

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, JRE said:

But we do not use RQ3 anymore, and you have only one familiar, so there is no need to make familiar creation expensive in terms of stats.

Has any product reintroduced sorcery familiars?  I haven't bought the Red Book of magic yet so idk.  AFAIK presently we have no rules for familiars in RQG as a result.

[svensson]

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

It bears a lot of resemblence to the RQ3 version and I don't know of any other RQ editions that had sorcery.

We do have a fair idea.

The Malkioni have rightness through which they can do caste magic.  Caste magic is probably similar to Shamanic Gifts (or even the gifts from Yelmalio and Humakt) except that the magic are caste specific and sorcerous in nature. What's not known is how many gifts a Malkioni would have.

@metcalph I'm not seeing where the sorcerous focus on Rune mastery to access spells is the anything like the RQ3's requirement to invest truly massive amounts of permanent POW into a Sorcerer's career. In RQ3, Tapping is almost a necessity but it does not appear to be the case here. 

But I freely admit that I may very well be wrong. Gloranthan Sorcery and the mechanics of it for RQ3 always put me off as overly-complicated and not particularly well-explained. Then there's the difference between Magi level characters from the Monster Coliseum box set and Strangers in Prax. Now, I realize that MC was generic and Strangers was Glorantha specific and that there was a 10 year difference between publishing dates. But Maculus and Arlaten could wipe the floor with any previously published Sorcerer [including Halcyon van Enkorth, and he was supposed to a top-tier bad guy] and at no point was there ever a step-by-step discussion of how those characters got as powerful as they were.

So I really think that additional discussions about Sorcery ought to include an article called 'Sorcery: a Guide for Aspiring Adepts'.

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

It's not so much as the question of whether they can make familiars (Probably) and how to do so (Probably similar to Weapons and Equipment) but the idea that every sorcerer *must* have a familiar to demonstrate mastery of their craft.

So... You have to have a familiar as a sorcery "flex".  Far be it from me to say that this is wrong, I love the idea, but I also think it is humorous.  I mean... "Yeah, I sank a ship with my illusory force spell, but I'm no sorcery master unless and until I can imbue my pet with superpowers."  It just seems amusingly arbitrary, like telling someone they can't graduate because they have the wrong color stripe on their gown.  This is not a criticism btw, I love arbitrary traditions and conventions that iterate the world in odd ways.

[metcalph]

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

@metcalph I'm not seeing where the sorcerous focus on Rune mastery to access spells is the anything like the RQ3's requirement to invest truly massive amounts of permanent POW into a Sorcerer's career. In RQ3, Tapping is almost a necessity but it does not appear to be the case here. 

I got the impression from the RQG rules that Tapping (specifcially Steal Breath) was easier in that there was less moral objection whereas originally most Malkioni schools have forbidden the usage.  

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

Then there's the difference between Magi level characters from the Monster Coliseum box set and Strangers in Prax. Now, I realize that MC was generic and Strangers was Glorantha specific and that there was a 10 year difference between publishing dates. But Maculus and Arlaten could wipe the floor with any previously published Sorcerer [including Halcyon van Enkorth, and he was supposed to a top-tier bad guy] and at no point was there ever a step-by-step discussion of how those characters got as powerful as they were.

HVE appeared as a Magus in Griffin Island not Monster Coliseum.  The Sorcerer in Monster Coliseum was an Adept.  But the three you mentioned were by design bigwig sorcerers storywise rather than would-be player heroes.  There's no discussion of how Kallyr and Argrath get to be so powerful within the rules that we have but their powerful status fits the background.  So your plaint really isn't about the rules that we have but the story reasons why they got to be so powerful.  HVE is just evil with a recycled text description from Griffin Mountain (stating he is just 25 years old), Maculus is at least century old and Arlaten's background does have a disconnect with his power.

 

[Darius West]

Without question, Sorcery in RQ has a steeper learning curve than other magic systems.  

The largest advantage that sorcery brings is Duration, with which it can easily outlast Shamans and Priests regardless of how much Extension they bring.

Of course Duration also brings its own problems and you almost need a spreadsheet to keep track of when your spells will lapse.

Enhance INT is an interesting spell too.  Hypothetically if you start with a 21 INT (18+3 for Fire Rune), and Enhance INT in a matrix, you can start with 12 points of the spell (+4 INT) and 9 points of duration which will net you an INT of 25 for 1 day.  You can then cast the spell using 24 points of free INT for +7INT and a duration of 10 minutes, netting you 28 INT which you can then use to cast again netting you 29 INT for 5 minutes ( if you haven't run out of MP yet).  At this point the spell taps out from what I can tell, as it requires multiples of 4 and you can no longer boost it high enough to get from 29 to 32.

Obviously there is a method, as Zzabur can cast huge spells, but for players, according to the present rules, places and components don't boost Free INT, but only your basic casting skill.  No doubt the Malkioni have some sneaky rort magics up their wizard sleeves that allow them to boost their Free INT even higher, perhaps via rituals that allow the primary caster to borrow all or a portion of the Free INT of other sorcerers participating in the ritual.  Who knows?

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

So... You have to have a familiar as a sorcery "flex".  Far be it from me to say that this is wrong, I love the idea, but I also think it is humorous.  I mean... "Yeah, I sank a ship with my illusory force spell, but I'm no sorcery master unless and until I can imbue my pet with superpowers."  It just seems amusingly arbitrary, like telling someone they can't graduate because they have the wrong color stripe on their gown.  This is not a criticism btw, I love arbitrary traditions and conventions that iterate the world in odd ways.

I tolerate the idea, because it's coming from an academic institution. In some countries (and universities), you have to submit a thesis in your final year of your Bachelor's degree. Most countries and universities don't require this. So, it's simply arbitrary.

So, having you create your familiar is sort of appropriate for them. While other traditions don't do that. Lhankor Mhy doesn't care how good (or bad, or non-existent) your sorcery is... Priesthood isn't based on it. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if the Black Robes in Nochet have come up with something equally as arbitrary.

 

(PS - I normally hate arbitrariness... it's so open to abuse and complete irrelevancy... sort of like the need to have your own familiar!)

[JRE]

Thanks for the discussion, as it helps to visualize the social aspects. As a work in progress that probably will be interesting to a few people and will eventually be superseded by whatever official sourcebook is published in the future, it is clear there are some strong feelings.

I would point out that right now I have moved the Familiar from Adept to Magus, which means a much harder requirement to be eligible (A dozen skills, including 6 spells, at 90%, all your INT allowed techniques and runes) except one, which I think is important, no social component. So an Adept or a zzaburi doing research can eventually become a Magus without involving other people. 

Although I know the official product line is to ignore backwards compatibility with RQ3 sorcery, it still has an influence in how many people saw Glorantha, which is why, changed to adapt to the genius idea of involving runes in sorcery, I would keep the tiered levels of power (as a mechanical support within the rules, not as a general statement about Glorantha) as well as Familiar as one of the ways sorcery changes the caster and their interaction with the Otherworld. 

We have two types of sorcerers in the sources. A religious caste that leads their people and cast powerful community magics. And single (or a few) individuals that use strange, slow magics that are generally isolated, feared and respected. I would expect the players interested in playing a sorcerer will prefer the second route, but I may be mistaken, and certainly the rules must cover also the first option. 

So the idea could be that you can take a personal option and awaken a familiar, building a personal link with the other side. Or you can be community / church oriented and have access to the other side through the community wyter and accessing also the MP pool of the community worship, refilled weekly or even daily, which may well mean, in RQ terms, that Theoblanc, atop a spiritual pyramid scheme, has a pool of a million MPs to cast magic, as well as access to a church spirit with unlimited effective POW and, as is the case with fetches and ally spirits, the potential doubled spell casting that, for me, marks "Rune level" in RQG.

I think the double approach works well with sorcery's duality in Glorantha. A personal path to magic without being dependent on anything but yor own mind, or a communal magic, led by chosen individuals, that gives magic stronger than their components and shows the supremacy of the Invisible God, allowing them to compete with spiritual and theist societies. 

As for high Free INT, remember you can add strength, duration or range to a sorcery spell matrix, so it will cost POW and a ton of MP, but you can cast really huge spells if you really need to. Slowly.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Without question, Sorcery in RQ has a steeper learning curve than other magic systems.  

The largest advantage that sorcery brings is Duration, with which it can easily outlast Shamans and Priests regardless of how much Extension they bring.

Of course Duration also brings its own problems and you almost need a spreadsheet to keep track of when your spells will lapse.

Enhance INT is an interesting spell too.  Hypothetically if you start with a 21 INT (18+3 for Fire Rune), and Enhance INT in a matrix, you can start with 12 points of the spell (+4 INT) and 9 points of duration which will net you an INT of 25 for 1 day.  You can then cast the spell using 24 points of free INT for +7INT and a duration of 10 minutes, netting you 28 INT which you can then use to cast again netting you 29 INT for 5 minutes ( if you haven't run out of MP yet).  At this point the spell taps out from what I can tell, as it requires multiples of 4 and you can no longer boost it high enough to get from 29 to 32.

Obviously there is a method, as Zzabur can cast huge spells, but for players, according to the present rules, places and components don't boost Free INT, but only your basic casting skill.  No doubt the Malkioni have some sneaky rort magics up their wizard sleeves that allow them to boost their Free INT even higher, perhaps via rituals that allow the primary caster to borrow all or a portion of the Free INT of other sorcerers participating in the ritual.  Who knows?

Yes, much harder and longer to advance. And for that matter, to have at a fairly high skill for a starting character. However, there are multiple ways to augment those casting chances, which you don't get with any other magic form.

While Duration may be a huge advantage over other systems, you don't get that much use out of it. Just to equal a 5pt Extension takes 12 Intensity. For most sorcerers, that means the strength of the spell is going to be pretty weak (8 pts... unless you've got a decently high INT over species Max.. unless you're 'cheating').

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

21 INT (18+3 for Fire Rune)

Ummm... what? It's only +2 for the highest rated Rune.

But, getting to 32 INT (or higher) is easy!!! (expensive, but easy). You can increase Intensity via Inscribing with extra POW... That's possibly how some of those you mention did it. Also, crystals. And enchantments (as evidenced by one NPC in a scenario). That last might be the "sneaky rort magics", but the others are already RAW.

As for Enhance INT, I'd be ok with throwing in a Man Rune to lower that Intensity:INT ratio (actually, Intensity: whatever stat your boosting).

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I got the impression from the RQG rules that Tapping (specifcially Steal Breath) was easier in that there was less moral objection whereas originally most Malkioni schools have forbidden the usage. 

Yes. What I have understood is that the Tapping technique brings a chaos mark (and is forbidden for most sorcery using cultures), but that you can cast spells by inferred techniques, doubling the MP cost, without learning the technique. Of course, some people will not care about the mark, but for most, this may allow for some use.

[Kloster]

13 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, getting to 32 INT (or higher) is easy!!! (expensive, but easy). You can increase Intensity via Inscribing with extra POW... That's possibly how some of those you mention did it.

Yes, and this is very efficient. But the cost in MP for the spells you are casting afterwards using said raised INT are truly horrendous.

[metcalph]

How to be a powerful sorcerer.

IMO the way a sorcerer would become really powerful is to achieve unity with the Godhead.  There's all sorts of ambiguous flaff in Revealed Mythologies so I'll stick with standard cosmology.  Gloranthans are generally the equivalent of the inhabitants of the Fourth World/Storm Age.  A sorcerer seeks gnosis by reaching back through successive stages of cosmical understanding (Golden Age, Green Age, Creation Age).  I think Adepts have reached the Golden Age stage of awareness and Maguses the Green Age.  Only Zzabur has reached the Creation Age.  

Acquisition of gnosis is generally done by swotting up on the runes and studying the spells.  When a sorcerer feels ready, they casts great spells weaves together all that they know for translation to a higher realm.  Translated sorcerers travel in worlds lesser mortals cannot imagine to the extent that they are gods in human clothing with lightning bolts shooting from their fingertips.  Translated sorcerers do not die but generally leave the mortal realms behind.  The worst sort of translated sorcerers are not those who are evil but those who remain active in the mortal world.  

 

 

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm... what? It's only +2 for the highest rated Rune.

Whoops.  Shows how long it has been since I read that part. 🙂

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, getting to 32 INT (or higher) is easy!!! (expensive, but easy). You can increase Intensity via Inscribing with extra POW... That's possibly how some of those you mention did it. Also, crystals. And enchantments (as evidenced by one NPC in a scenario). That last might be the "sneaky rort magics", but the others are already RAW.

As for Enhance INT, I'd be ok with throwing in a Man Rune to lower that Intensity:INT ratio (actually, Intensity: whatever stat your boosting).

Page 390.  I don't think I read that nearly carefully enough.  That's a pretty big bonus.  Admittedly you pay thru the nose for it, but you get 1 point of Free Intensity, Duration and Range without needing any spell manipulation. 

I note that it doesn't specify whether you can keep putting points into the same inscription after its creation. I would assume so given that it says you can add points, but is that while you are opening the inscription or subsequently too?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Darius West

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

I got the impression from the RQG rules that Tapping (specifically Steal Breath) was easier in that there was less moral objection whereas originally most Malkioni schools have forbidden the usage.  

I kind of like the dynamic where where you either get societal support, or routinely use tap. Perhaps with the option for ultimately transcending the need for either. Tapping doesn't need to be strictly forbidden in emergencies to be a thing you don't want happening in your neighborhood every day.

All the stuff with MP bookkeeping badly needs abstraction though.

It should probably work something like professional skills. 'Power source' would be a new type of skill, representing things like your level of magical community support, or ability to get away with tapping something noone cares about. Different skills would have different conversion rates, like different professions have different incomes. Roll once per season to see how many MP you can use to refill storage, or cast long-duration spells. If you fail or fumble, bad things happen. What they are depends on the nature of the source.

Doing something that causes you to have access to more MP, like paying for devotees to focus their prayers on you,  is equivalent to raising that rating. It counts as experience or training in the power source skill, not something you have to break out a spreadsheet for.

Meditation would be a power source skill, but one that return low rewards for with minimal risk.

 

[Jeff]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:26 PM, Shiningbrow said:

After a couple of searches, it appears there's not been a full thread on what the sorcerer occupation should have (if it should even exist, versus the apprentice sorcerer).

But what skills should they have? How many spells in the list? How many Runes and Techniques?

I'd presume we'd have to start with the Philosopher, and start modifying that...

Obviously, Read/Write is important... So 30% there. Philosophers are part-time sorcerers, yet get 1 spell at 20%, and 2 others at 10%. I'd suggest that the full sorcerer get either a 30% spell, or two 15%. Library Use is a definite... No Orate *though (Perhaps Irate :p)

(*sorcerer-priests wound, though.. )

I'd probably also consider giving them Spirit Lore, as a Knowledge skill (or, at least, a Lore option for this).

I believe some out there would suggest Alchemy as a staple for Gloranthan sorcerers, but that's not my vision.

I'm keeping the 3 POW worth of Runes/Techniques, for "balance" (🤮)

Any thoughts??

Where are we talking about? Are you talking about a member of the zzaburi caste in Seshnela? Are you talking about one of the sorcerers in the employ of a Trader Prince? Are you talking about one of the senior sorcerers in Loskalm?

The term sorcerer covers a LOT of territory! Arguably more than even Priest.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

Where are we talking about? Are you talking about a member of the zzaburi caste in Seshnela? Are you talking about one of the sorcerers in the employ of a Trader Prince? Are you talking about one of the senior sorcerers in Loskalm?

The term sorcerer covers a LOT of territory! Arguably more than even Priest.

Yes.

I have never thought there would be a simple one shoe fits all. But, there should definitely be some characteristics (eg, skills) that are common across all (obviously, a couple of spells, knowing a Technique or two, a Rune or two...). Every sorcerer will need Read/Write (as mentioned above).

The "any thoughts" is an indicator for people to share their ideas...

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:22 AM, radmonger said:

[1] Here he is failing at his job, of course, not quite getting the distinction between shaman and priest.

A Brithini Zabburi would of course know the difference between shaman and priest, that doesn’t mean they won’t conflate the two as a means of making fun of the primitives

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

but you get 1 point of Free Intensity, Duration and Range without needing any spell manipulation. 

Sorry, but that's an "or", not an "and" in the book...

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

I note that it doesn't specify whether you can keep putting points into the same inscription after its creation. I would assume so given that it says you can add points, but is that while you are opening the inscription or subsequently too?

WoD* clarifies very clearly that you can add to it later.

And those are just Inscriptions, which may require all the POW to come from the sorcerer who uses is (they're supposed to be uniquely useable by them, and them alone). If we start talking about enchantments, then you should be able to take the POW from others.. and that can build up some powerful spells... (obviously, becoming relics).

19 hours ago, Kloster said:

What I have understood is that the Tapping technique brings a chaos mark (and is forbidden for most sorcery using cultures

I have no idea where you got that. 'Immoral' certainly doesn't equal 'Chaos' - Otherwise the Wolf Pirates would be even scarier.

(*I usually read this as World of Darkness... 😁)

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 7/8/2022 at 8:56 AM, Darius West said:

there is a method, as Zzabur can cast huge spells, but for players, according to the present rules, places and components don't boost Free INT, but only your basic casting skill.  No doubt the Malkioni have some sneaky rort magics up their wizard sleeves that allow them to boost their Free INT even higher, perhaps via rituals that allow the primary caster to borrow all or a portion of the Free INT of other sorcerers participating in the ritual.  Who knows?

A lot of options :

crystals,

heroquest abilities (like shaman) raising your INT/MAX INT, or adding « free » Intensity (or duration or range) …

worshippers / magicians union when/if we will one day have rules about « community ceremonies spells »

 

and as others said enchantment strategies. After all if sorcerers have some weird circles/ gears / towers ther should be a reason !

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

crystals

Crystals are a fresh "can of wyrms".  Presently they are written up solely with spirit magic and divine magic in mind.  There are no rules that explain how Sorcery and crystals interact.  Yes, the GM can choose to interpret the existing rules in light of Sorcery and other rules conventions but nothing specific has been committed to paper in the rules as yet.

I would also like to see Alchemy have more involvement in Sorcery, but that is another matter. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Crystals are a fresh "can of wyrms".  Presently they are written up solely with spirit magic and divine magic in mind.  There are no rules that explain how Sorcery and crystals interact.  Yes, the GM can choose to interpret the existing rules in light of Sorcery and other rules conventions but nothing specific has been committed to paper in the rules as yet.

I would also like to see Alchemy have more involvement in Sorcery, but that is another matter. 

Yep you are showing me how old I am 😭 

there was crystal for sorcery in the past and no alchemy (in my FR oriflam version at least)

And I did not understand why there was sorcery crystal…

 

but now, with some alchemy + sorcery spell/enchant, I would like (official or house rule) to alter some divine material and transform it into raw…rune… sorcery material

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

There are no rules that explain how Sorcery and crystals interact. 

The Crystal rules in Elder Secrets did have some crystals being useful for sorcery.

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Crystal rules in Elder Secrets did have some crystals being useful for sorcery.

Did they?  I thought I read that pretty closely.  Then again it was about 2 years ago...