Why does an RQ spear do more damage the longer it is?

[icebrand]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:52 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

bronze greatswords typically don't have a pointy end. it's like a long-ass cleaver with the end giving the blade structural integrity, because bronze ain't hard, it deforms, especially big-ass pieces. a poke would literally be a poke.

Wait bronze great swords actually existed??? I thought bronze shortsword was peak bronze sword! Man i feel super Jon Snow today haha

In any case, isn't Gloranthan bronze "better" than Earth's bronze?

[SDLeary]

9 hours ago, icebrand said:

Wait bronze great swords actually existed??? I thought bronze shortsword was peak bronze sword! Man i feel super Jon Snow today haha

In any case, isn't Gloranthan bronze "better" than Earth's bronze?

"Two-handed" swords, yes. They might be considered Longswords by later European standards, rather than the ginormous Zweihanders. 

SDLeary

[Akhôrahil]

It would super interesting to see someone reproduce the longer bronze swords  (especially that incredibly flimsy-looking long bronze rapier), put them through intense combat testing, and see if they actually work and don’t break.

[David Scott]

I've always used the first chapter of The Archaeology of Weapons: Arms and Armor from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry by R. Ewart Oakeshott, the 1990s updated reprint as my bronze age sword reference. It has a simple (illustrated) section on the evolution of bronze swords from thrusting through cutting to cut and thrust weapons: https://archive.org/details/EwartOakeshottTheArchaeologyOfWeaponsBookFi.org/page/n29/mode/2up

I'm assuming that the type of sword you choose is dependant on your style of fighting - thrusting/cutting/cut and thrust. 

[David Scott]

On 8/30/2021 at 8:10 PM, Nick Underwood said:

There is no logic to the increased damage due to length when stabbing with spears (unless you concoct a strange scenario).

Glorantha aside, isn't it F=MA? Where here, the mass of a longer spear, given roughly the same wielder, produces more force? (Please correct any physics mis conception if needed,although Damage dice = ENC x DEX goes someway to giving it the right feel)

[Joerg]

Another interesting site about the metallurgy of swords is https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/index.html, although the main focus of this lies on steel swords. Still, stuff about the material properties of blades may be useful for non-steel swords, too.

Sword evolution is covered here:

https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/backbone/rb_1_1.html

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Glorantha aside, isn't it F=MA? Where here, the mass of a longer spear, given roughly the same wielder, produces more force? (Please correct any physics mis conception if needed,although Damage dice = ENC x DEX goes someway to giving it the right feel)

Problem is... the more massive the spear, the more it takes to accelerate it in the first place. Refactor the equation as:

A = F / M

How much of an effect that has on the user is an exercise I'm not quite ready to do calculations for... In simple terms, doubling the mass of the spear will result in half the acceleration presuming the user has the same force behind it.

The (double) mass will probably have more inertia, and hence be less maneuverable -- again assuming the user has a constant force between two different spears.

 

 

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Problem is...

That's already covered by the STR / DEX requirements.

[Manimati]

On 9/3/2021 at 10:13 AM, Kloster said:

The real advantage of bows are range and weight if you carry more than a few shots.

and frequency: bows are S/MR meaning that up to 2 arrows can be shot each round (up to 3 shots on a first round with preparation), while Javelin is 1/MR : one shot per round. 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

Check the WoD, if you are using SRs... there is time to prep the missile as well. It will take a very dextrous individual to get 2 shots every round on a S/MR weapon.

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Manimati]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Check the WoD, if you are using SRs... there is time to prep the arrow as well. It will take a very dextrous individual to get 2 shots on a S/MR weapon.

Yes, I wrote "up to". Moreover, magic like coordination and mobility can help you compensate for lower DEX scores to reach 2 arrows per round.

[Kloster]

41 minutes ago, Manimati said:

and frequency: bows are S/MR meaning that up to 2 arrows can be shot each round (up to 3 shots on a first round with preparation), while Javelin is 1/MR : one shot per round. 

Yes, but except for very close range, with RQG's rule of engagement and move, this is less a factor, especially with:

27 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Check the WoD, if you are using SRs... there is time to prep the missile as well. It will take a very dextrous individual to get 2 shots every round on a S/MR weapon.

Correct.

23 minutes ago, Manimati said:

Yes, I wrote "up to". Moreover, magic like coordination and mobility can help you compensate for lower DEX scores to reach 2 arrows per round.

And you are right on this.

[Bill the barbarian]

If you truly want to see javelins kick ass, throw magic on them. 1d10+1d3 with a MM or three... ouch!

Edited September 7, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Baron Wulfraed]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

That's already covered by the STR / DEX requirements.

The assumption is big spear vs small spear -- with the same user! The small spear should be "faster" and more maneuverable in comparison to the big spear; resulting in similar forces to use, and on impact. The small spear may do less damage as the lower inertia means it will also /slow/ down faster once impact has occurred.

 

[SDLeary]

17 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The assumption is big spear vs small spear -- with the same user! The small spear should be "faster" and more maneuverable in comparison to the big spear; resulting in similar forces to use, and on impact. The small spear may do less damage as the lower inertia means it will also /slow/ down faster once impact has occurred.

 

But whether that slowing would impart a significantly different wound compared to the larger spear, based on the damage granularity of the RQ rules.

SDLeary

Edited September 8, 2021 by SDLeary
clarity

[Akhôrahil]

21 hours ago, David Scott said:

Glorantha aside, isn't it F=MA? Where here, the mass of a longer spear, given roughly the same wielder, produces more force? (Please correct any physics mis conception if needed,although Damage dice = ENC x DEX goes someway to giving it the right feel)

If the idea is that it's about mass, everyone should just add lead weights to their short spear to get the damage up. This doesn't seem like it would be a good idea, though, in multiple ways. The force you can put into a stab depends on your physical strength, so F=MA just means that the heavier spear will move more slowly and hit with the same force as a lighter one (assuming it's at least heavy enough for you to put all your power into). 

You want your weapon to be quite light - you hit with the same force, but more speed.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, SDLeary said:

But whether that slowing would impart a significantly different wound to the larger spear, based on the damage granularity of the RQ rules.

SDLeary

However...

The attacks per melee round are supposed to be an abstraction of what actually happened during those 10 seconds, not one individual attack. Given the longer weapon is harder to manoeuvre, it seems odd that it has the higher damage output, as one would expect less opportunities to hit and do damage.

 

(just a general  observation, not solely countering your post)

[Baron Wulfraed]

13 hours ago, SDLeary said:

But whether that slowing would impart a significantly different wound compared to the larger spear, based on the damage granularity of the RQ rules.

Strangely -- it took until nightmare time for me to recall the /other/ equation that may matter.

Energy = mass * velocity^2

In nameless units, a spear of mass 1 accelerated up to velocity 2 would have energy 4.

A spear of mass 2 accelerated only up to velocity 1 has a measly energy of 2.

That would seem to put the balance back on the side of the short spear...

 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Strangely -- it took until nightmare time for me to recall the /other/ equation that may matter.

Energy = mass * velocity^2

In nameless units, a spear of mass 1 accelerated up to velocity 2 would have energy 4.

A spear of mass 2 accelerated only up to velocity 1 has a measly energy of 2.

That would seem to put the balance back on the side of the short spear...

 

This works for a javelin, not a spear, where the mass that counts is not only the weapon's mass. And the wound effects depends on the energy lost by the weapon in it's target, the width of the wound and some other factors.

[simonh]

I’ve not been following this thread for a while, but I just came across this fantastic quote and this seemed the most appropriate place to share it.

A Spartan boy complained to his mother that the sword he’d been given was too short. She replied “Add a step to it.”

Edited September 10, 2021 by simonh