Damaging Natural Weapons With a Parry

[Ryan Kent]

How do you calculate damage to natural weapons such as bite or claw (or fist) when they miss and your parry succeeds? Do you roll damage and apply it just like a normal hit or do you roll damage and give one point of damage it it exceeds the armor plus hit points of the location?

[Akhôrahil]

By implication of W&E, you treat a limb (and by extension, other natural weapons) as a weapon with Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the limb, then apply damage just as you would to a weapon.

What I don't like about this is that armor comes out weird - either it has no effect, which seems odd (and plus, it means that heavily armored creatures with natural attack are easier to hurt with parries), or it works as usual, which is also odd (as it means that something that would do one point of damage to a weapon doesn't hurt an armored limb). My house-ruled way of running it is to sum limb HP and armor (including natural), and then treat the limb as a weapon of that HP.

But yeah, my players really prefer to parry with weapons rather than shields - it can sometimes do more damage than the attacks themselves.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Scotty]

17 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

How do you calculate damage to natural weapons such as bite or claw (or fist) when they miss and your parry succeeds? Do you roll damage and apply it just like a normal hit

Yes

So using a failed bite attack of a saber-toothed cat vs a successful medium shield parry

Quote

Defender rolls parrying weapon’s normal damage. Attacking weapon’s HP reduced by 1 HP if damage over its current HP.

The cat's head is 3pts of armor and 7 hit points (RQB page 159).

Vostor's large shield damage is 1D6+1D4. Rolls 3 and 2 for 5.

Cat's head armour absorbs 3, but 2 go through to the head.

The cat has crashed straight into Vostor's shield.

17 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

or do you roll damage and give one point of damage it it exceeds the armor plus hit points of the location?

No.

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Cat's head armour absorbs 3, but 2 go through to the head.

I assume that this means that in the many cases where the attacking weapon takes 1 point of damage, it's soaked by the armor? This will sometimes make natural weapons sturdier than the normal kind.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I assume that this means that in the many cases where the attacking weapon takes 1 point of damage, it's soaked by the armor? This will sometimes make natural weapons sturdier than the normal kind.

Do you have an example of this? Most of the results on the table are "weapon takes N HP if damage is over current HP", where N is "1" or "damage in excess of HP" depending on results. As I understand for natural weapon attacks, it becomes "if damage is over current AP" and N is always "damage in excess of AP" 

When does it happen that a weapon takes 1 HP even if not over current HP?

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by DreadDomain

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Do you have an example of this? Most of the results on the table are "weapon takes N HP if damage is over current HP", where N is "1" or "damage in excess of HP" depending on results. As I understand for natural weapon attacks, it becomes "if damage is over current AP" and N is always "damage in excess of AP" 

When does it happen that a weapon takes 1 HP even if not over current HP?

If you treat it as a standard hit, rather than applying the regular Attack & Parry Results table to it, then you don’t get the the ”1 HP” effect for NW attacks, agree (I had missed that final ”no”). That does make the results table even more convoluted, though. (Also, does it really make sense that every parry is as damaging as a full attack? Wouldn’t a lot of them be just fending? I would much rather have my hand impact the club you’re defending with rather than being struck by it.)

But then what about parrying with NWs? Is the intention that parrying with NW is only meaningful if you get a better result (or if you’re just happy getting an arm damaged rather than a random body part, which can make sense). I don’t think boxers would agree with this…

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[DreadDomain]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, does it really make sense that every parry is as damaging as a full attack? Wouldn’t a lot of them be just fending? I would much rather have my hand impact the club you’re defending with rather than being struck by it.)

But then what about parrying with NWs? Is the intention that parrying with NW is only meaningful if you get a better result (or if you’re just happy getting an arm damaged rather than a random body part, which can make sense). I don’t think boxers would agree with this…

Hmmm... good point... it does mean that parrying a natural weapon attack is akin to just making an extra attack with the benefit of stopping the NW's damage...

[Scotty]

23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I assume that this means that in the many cases where the attacking weapon takes 1 point of damage, it's soaked by the armor?

Yes

23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This will sometimes make natural weapons sturdier than the normal kind.

GMs can always use their own rulings at their table. You could rule that the cats teeth break reducing the AP and even damage. However I'd alway advise going with the story (cat misses and crashes into parrying shield and takes some damage) vs applying the full rules which may not make complete sense in this situation. The rules cannot cover every situation. I always fall back to this being a fantasy RPG in a fictional setting vs trying to simulate the real world, MGF (page 6) trumps most minutiae.

[Akhôrahil]

34 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

Hmmm... good point... it does mean that parrying a natural weapon attack is akin to just making an extra attack with the benefit of stopping the NW's damage...

In my experience, shields are unimpressive in RQG already, and doing this much damage on defence tilts it even further towards defending with weapons. Greatswords are just amazingly good.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

In my experience, shields are unimpressive in RQG already, and doing this much damage on defence tilts it even further towards defending with weapons. Greatswords are just amazingly good.

Even if I agree with your comment on RQG's shields, parrying with a sword on a natural weapon attack has always been a favorite tactic in any RQ iteration I played, just because of this possibility to damage (in that case, wound) the attacking weapon.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

trumps most minutiae.

RQ G, trumping minutiae since 2017!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

In my experience, shields are unimpressive in RQG already, and doing this much damage on defence tilts it even further towards defending with weapons. Greatswords are just amazingly good.

And Weapon Trance also.  I played in a one off with @Todd@Chaosium where a horde of Scorpion men attacked a Humakht duck under Sword Trance.  After one round they (and the GM) learned not to attack with their natural weapons, which pretty much eliminated their effectiveness.

RQG has very much tilted the balance away from sword and shield, especially once you get iron weapons which parry much more damage than a shield.  Don't forget Strongblade.

[DreadDomain]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:52 PM, Akhôrahil said:

That does make the results table even more convoluted, though. (Also, does it really make sense that every parry is as damaging as a full attack? Wouldn’t a lot of them be just fending? I would much rather have my hand impact the club you’re defending with rather than being struck by it.)

@Scottywas describing a fail attack (natural weapon) vs a successful parry (weapon). I believe an equivalent level of success will bear the results as per the matrix, Normal attack (natural weapon) vs normal parry (weapon) should be:

Attacker rolls normal damage.
Defender’s parrying weapon takes 1 HP damage if damage more than its current HP. Any excess damage goes to the affected hit location. 

Weapon parry will only be as damaging as an attack if the level of success is higher than the natural weapon attack level of success.

On 12/27/2021 at 12:52 PM, Akhôrahil said:

But then what about parrying with NWs? Is the intention that parrying with NW is only meaningful if you get a better result (or if you’re just happy getting an arm damaged rather than a random body part, which can make sense). I don’t think boxers would agree with this…

It could be assumed that on a normal attack (weapon) versus normal parry (natural weapon), only 1 HP is inflicted on the arm if the damage is above the AP (natural or worn) of the location... but based on the martial arts note (Smoking Ruins p.140) it seems like all damage above AP is inflicted on parrying limb. Succeeding a martial parry (the roll is bellow both your parry % and martial arts %) deflects an additional 6 points of damage.  

In the end, I do not think it would break anything to use the matrix as is ("only 1 HP is inflicted on the arm if the damage is above the AP (natural or worn)")

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/28/2021 at 1:53 PM, DreadDomain said:

@Scottywas describing a fail attack (natural weapon) vs a successful parry (weapon). I believe an equivalent level of success will bear the results as per the matrix, Normal attack (natural weapon) vs normal parry (weapon) should be:

Attacker rolls normal damage.
Defender’s parrying weapon takes 1 HP damage if damage more than its current HP. Any excess damage goes to the affected hit location. 

Weapon parry will only be as damaging as an attack if the level of success is higher than the natural weapon attack level of success.

It could be assumed that on a normal attack (weapon) versus normal parry (natural weapon), only 1 HP is inflicted on the arm if the damage is above the AP (natural or worn) of the location... but based on the martial arts note (Smoking Ruins p.140) it seems like all damage above AP is inflicted on parrying limb. Succeeding a martial parry (the roll is bellow both your parry % and martial arts %) deflects an additional 6 points of damage.  

In the end, I do not think it would break anything to use the matrix as is ("only 1 HP is inflicted on the arm if the damage is above the AP (natural or worn)")

I'm trying to think of this from a simulationist perspective - what happens in the real world?

Quite often (well, ok, not really... and certainly not much any more), when defending against a melee armed combatant, you'd try to not get hit with the full power of the blow, and in the case of sharp weapons, try not to actually get hit with the sharp bit (so, flat of blade, point of spear/dagger). Even if you are hit with the sharp bit, a "successful" parry would indicate not getting hit at the right angle to cause the damage. Or, if it is, then it's more likely to be with a less life-threatening way - ie, the side of the arm along the ulna rather than the fleshy (bloody) bit along the flat of the arm.

I'll also throw in here that RQ isn't simulationist, and thus the 'parry' as we understand it is a combination of blocking, dodging, deflecting, etc. It certainly shouldn't be seen a static, put something in the way to block and take the full impact... So, taking all of that into account, I think the 1HP is appropriate, rather than the full force of a normal, unparried, blow.

The bonus for martial arts could be seen not so much as toughening up, but as acquiring the appropriate skills to minimise the damage by learning better placement and tactics.

[Alex]

Successful parry vs failed attack with an impaling weapon certainly sounds like a potential stop-thrust situation.  Other cases are maybe less obvious, but aren't that hard to rationalise broadly similarly.  Or you could make that class of weapon a distinct case, if you like the crunchy colour angle.

[DreadDomain]

17 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm trying to think of this from a simulationist perspective - what happens in the real world?

Quite often (well, ok, not really... and certainly not much any more), when defending against a melee armed combatant, you'd try to not get hit with the full power of the blow, and in the case of sharp weapons, try not to actually get hit with the sharp bit (so, flat of blade, point of spear/dagger). Even if you are hit with the sharp bit, a "successful" parry would indicate not getting hit at the right angle to cause the damage. Or, if it is, then it's more likely to be with a less life-threatening way - ie, the side of the arm along the ulna rather than the fleshy (bloody) bit along the flat of the arm.

I'll also throw in here that RQ isn't simulationist, and thus the 'parry' as we understand it is a combination of blocking, dodging, deflecting, etc. It certainly shouldn't be seen a static, put something in the way to block and take the full impact... So, taking all of that into account, I think the 1HP is appropriate, rather than the full force of a normal, unparried, blow.

Agreed, parrying is not only put your weapon in the trajectory of the the take the full impact which is probably why on a same-level-of-success-attack-versus-parry, only 1HP is inflicted to the weapon if damage is above weapon HP. When it comes to parrying a weapon with one of your body part, I can definitively see how it would be harder to acheive without getting hurt. In a sense, only you acheive a better level of success, you are really chosing where the blow will land. If you have better level of success, you are deflecting the blow, moving aside the weapon and side stepping the blow, stopping the limb, etc. Unless you are a trained martial artist (term used loosely here), what would happen in the real word is an unarmed combattant would try to avoid the blow altogether; dodge.

17 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The bonus for martial arts could be seen not so much as toughening up, but as acquiring the appropriate skills to minimise the damage by learning better placement and tactics.

Not only it could be seen as such but I am 99% the extra 6 pts of damage blocked is all about positioning and deflecting and not really about toughening up. You only get the benefit if you succeed at your martial art skill so it does represent a martial parry. 

[Kloster]

13 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

When it comes to parrying a weapon with one of your body part, I can definitively see how it would be harder to acheive without getting hurt. In a sense, only you acheive a better level of success, you are really chosing where the blow will land. If you have better level of success, you are deflecting the blow, moving aside the weapon and side stepping the blow, stopping the limb, etc. Unless you are a trained martial artist (term used loosely here), what would happen in the real word is an unarmed combattant would try to avoid the blow altogether; dodge.

Some Italian medieval and renaissance fencing school were teaching parrying sword attacks with the hand, by slapping the flat of the blade with your palm to deflect the hit..

13 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Not only it could be seen as such but I am 99% the extra 6 pts of damage blocked is all about positioning and deflecting and not really about toughening up. You only get the benefit if you succeed at your martial art skill so it does represent a martial parry. 

I totally agree here.

[DreadDomain]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

Some Italian medieval and renaissance fencing school were teaching parrying sword attacks with the hand, by slapping the flat of the blade with your palm to deflect the hit..

The way to represent this in RQ would be to use the Martial Arts skill.

[Rob Darvall]

On 1/2/2022 at 9:08 AM, DreadDomain said:

The way to represent this in RQ would be to use the Martial Arts skill.

Though I occasionally get to fence with a longsword (2 handed) bloke for whom my attacks are often an invitation to grab either my hilt or forearm and batter my face with his pommel. He achieves this without being hit & it comes directly from a fechtbuch. The last point meaning that it was used as part of a fighting system, not a seperate art.

[DreadDomain]

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Though I occasionally get to fence with a longsword (2 handed) bloke for whom my attacks are often an invitation to grab either my hilt or forearm and batter my face with his pommel. He achieves this without being hit & it comes directly from a fechtbuch. The last point meaning that it was used as part of a fighting system, not a seperate art.

RQ does not really go to that level of detail in combat and there are no real mechanical incentive to use anything else than a sword parry followed by a sword attack (perharps using aimed blow) and describe it as you did.

Of couse to be truer to the move, dodge or martial arts could be used but unless your skills in them are pretty good, or at least close to what you have in your sword parry, their is no mechanical reason to do so. In any case, I wouldn't see the sword, dodge, martial arts skills as "separate arts" but simply as components of a single fighting system.

Games like Mythras or GURPS would be much better at mechanically emulating what you describe. Personally I would have liked if the Attack vs Parry/Dodge matrices would have given more options say on a special defense vs failed attack or critical defense vs normal attack instead of just damaging the attacking weapon. Something like an immediate riposte would have represented what you describe fairly well.

 

[Rob Darvall]

8 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

RQ does not really go to that level of detail in combat and there are no real mechanical incentive to use anything else than a sword parry followed by a sword attack (perharps using aimed blow) and describe it as you did.

This IS his sword parry. One of them at least. Most "parries" are a matter of attacking in such a way as to negate your opponent's blows. Mechanically it has to be the next sword attack, the one that got through.

More pertinently to the question, using a bare or gloved hand to parry an attack is both reasonable and proven in use. This includes grabbing the blade, slapping the flat, and grappling either hilts or one or both arms.

Mechanically the natural weapon either gets a lucky slap (most beasts) in, or it is aimed to disrupt the attack and can be trained (and historically was) as part of a fighting system.

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Games like Mythras or GURPS would be much better at mechanically emulating what you describe. Personally I would have liked if the Attack vs Parry/Dodge matrices would have given more options say on a special defense vs failed attack or critical defense vs normal attack instead of just damaging the attacking weapon. Something like an immediate riposte would have represented what you describe fairly well.

Agreed! Somewhere there were written up optional results for specials and crits that were merely extra damage, which is way more realistic... It's already in the W&E book for nets etc.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

More pertinently to the question, using a bare or gloved hand to parry an attack is both reasonable and proven in use.

Did your opponent cast Bladesharp 4 or Fireblade or Truesword on his weapon?  Probably not.  You might want to reconsider...

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Did your opponent cast Bladesharp 4 or Fireblade or Truesword on his weapon?  Probably not.  You might want to reconsider...

This depends on the weapon, but with knives, the defence (outside of moving out of the way) is typically blocking or deflecting the arm (even if you have a knife yourself). With a spear, I imagine it's trying to go for the shaft. This is one of the more subtle advantages of a sword - it's much less grabbable.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Rob Darvall]

8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Did your opponent cast Bladesharp 4 or Fireblade or Truesword on his weapon?  Probably not.  You might want to reconsider...

No different to: is your oponent using a rapier or a messer? You parry as is appropriate to the weapon you face. Yes Bladesharp will cut you if you fuck up. The mechanism is there in the rules. And it works well. If you're making natural weapon parries against a blade you're increasing your chances of getting hurt. Yes. This is so in the real world too. But a natural weapon parry is still better than no parry at all {especially in a world where the arm can be reattached but putting a head back on costs a year's wages}; and those who are good at them use them as part of their fighting system.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Rob Darvall