Refuge and Karse

[jajagappa]

Jeff posted notes on both Refuge and Karse recently on FB:

REFUGE

The city of Refuge is port city in God Forgot and a Brithini outpost which continues its tenuous existence using the old caste systems of Brithos. Cautious and defensive, the rulers are ancient and canny politicians and rarely act rashly. The city has an ancient alliance with a tribe of Esvularing peoples called the Bandori. Beginning in 1620, a flood of refugees from Heortland has swollen the city’s population.

Refuge has a great temple to the Invisible God, major temples to Aeol and Choralinthor, minor temples to Orlanth, Ernalda, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy, and shrines to Chalana Arroy, Dormal, Humakt, Waha, and Eirtha. Because of the refugees from Heortland, the temples to Orlanth and Ernalda are now effectively major temples.

The ruler of Refuge is the brother of the Talar of God Forgot. He is a Brithini, and is aided by several sorcerers and by his fearsome bodyguards.

About a third of the city's population are God Forgot Malkioni. About 10% are Aeolians. The rest is a motley mix of Heortlanders, Praxians, Boat People, and Esrolians.

 

There are caravans that head out from Refuge to the Monkey Ruins and into Prax. That route is greatly preferred to the route to Corflu and then upriver to New Pavis.

 

Note: Refuge is not Sanctuary and certainly won't be presented as such in Chaosium materials. (Nor can it in Jonstown Compendium materials.)

 

 

[jajagappa]

KARSE (large city): This ancient port city is an important trade center with Dragon Pass. Goods are transferred from ship to caravan here. Karse is located on the coast, a few kilometers from the mouth of the Marzeel River. The high Heortland cliffs rise a few kilometers behind the city and the Shadow Plateau. Karse is a very old city, dating back to the Dawn. Temples to the Sea Gods stand near the harbor, a natural inlet that has been worked on for the last 1500 years or so. The city has many warehouses and inns, including a Geo’s Inn.

The main city is strongly fortified with two main gates – a Land Gate (the main gate) and a Sea Gate that leads to the harbor – and a fortress that guards the harbor. Despite the seemingly impervious fortifications, Karse fell to the Lunar Army in 1619, after a dramatic assault by land and sea.

Karse has major temples to Orlanth Adventurous, Ernalda, Issaries, Argan Argar, Choralinthor, and Aeol, minor temples to Chalana Arroy, and Lhankor Mhy, and shrines to Diros, Dormal, Humakt, Lanbril, Magasta, and the Seven Mothers.

Map Details: map is here: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10159174862289017&set=gm.2158485894327398
Size: 40 hectares assuming 150 people per hectare

Karse has a fortifications all around, with two main gates - a Land Gate (the main gate) and a Sea Gate (that leads to the harbour).

A. Fortress. This fortress guards the harbor. It fell to an assault of dragonewts in 1619. It is now the base of operations of whoever rules the city.

B. Main City. Here are the temples, residences, markets, and warehouses. The enclosed area probably has several open areas, for tanning, and other crafts, or for storage of bulk goods or animals. There are a lot of inns - caravanserai - in the city, including a Geo's Inn.

C. The Beach. This is where boats are beached. THere's a ship shed for repair, maintenance, etc., that probably can house 20 ships. There's a wall near the end of the harbor, past that small fishing boats are beached. Also on the Beach is the Sea Temple, with shrines to Magasta, Choralinthor, Diros, Dormal, and the gang.

The Harbor is a natural inlet that has been worked on for the last 1500 years.

Beyond the harbor are coastal pine woods and orchards, and a large fishing village.

 

I expect night comes a little early to Karse, as the kilometre high cliffs of the Shadow Plateau are only about five kilometres away. Before the Only Old One was defeated by Belintar, the Tower of the Palace of Black Glass would have been clearly visible about 20 km away, a huge structure that rose to the Middle Air.

 

Argan Argar is of course important in this area, second only to Orlanth and Ernalda.

 

Karse is an interesting base for a campaign as it has very strong connections to both Sartar and Nochet. It is the southern terminus of the Dragon Pass caravan route and so has merchants from the Lunar Heartlands, Esrolia, Prax, and even over the seas. Orlanthi are of course welcome there, but there are even some Lunars who remained after its conquest by the Hendriki.

From Karse, a campaign could easily link Sartar to the far off islands of Jrustela or Teshnos, get involved in Esrolian politics, and have to fight off Wolf Pirates.

But it is also right next to the Shadow Plateau and a stronghold of the Argan Argar cult, so very troll-friendly (by necessity if not by inclination).

 

A lot of Karse likely has been built by Sartarite stonemasons.

"Temples to the Sea Gods stand near the harbor, a natural inlet that has been worked on for the last 1500 years or so, most recently by Prince Tarkalor Trollkiller and his Sartarite stonemasons. "

 

There likely was a shrine to Yelmalio but it was abandoned in 1619 and the cult played no part in the city's liberation by the Hendriki in 1624.

Not surprisingly, Karse after 1625 is in post-Liberation turmoil. The Lunars are gone, the Hendriki are leaderless and their brief kingdom is falling apart. Esrolians queen does not rule outside of her lands, although she has great influence on Karse. In the Shadow Plateau there are those that want to extend the Shadow again.

But trade with Sartar is returning, and there is once again a free Prince in Boldhome.

 

Argrath becomes Prince in 1627 and one of the first things he is tasked to deal with by the Heortlanders and Esrolians is to stop the Wolf Pirates.

Not only is Karse dependent on trade through Sartar for its livelihood but between 1570 and 1600, I would expect that most of the public architecture in Karse got built by the largesse of the princes of Sartar. Harbor, gates, temples, etc. That stopped after the conquest of Boldhome, and then it was whatever the city could get the merchants to pay for - either directly through gifts and donations, or indirectly through market fees and tolls. That stopped in 1619 after the city fell to a Lunar military assault. After 1621, trade was severely disrupted due to war. The Lunar garrison was withdrawn late in 1624 or early 1625 and the city was ruled by the Hendriki, but they collapsed early in 1625.

So it would seem likely that the place the oligarchs of Karse look to is Boldhome, now that there is a Prince again.

 

 

[jajagappa]

Here's the color version of Karse - part of the Heortland material, copyright 2021 Harald Smith and Chaosium.

Edited January 31, 2022 by jajagappa

[Alex]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Argrath becomes Prince in 1627 and one of the first things he is tasked to deal with by the Heortlanders and Esrolians is to stop the Wolf Pirates.

Tasked is an interesting choice of words here!  Given he's not under any direct obligation to do so, and the apparently horrendous difficulty and danger of going so, others would have sprung to mind first...  ("Begged", "heavily bribed", "had his arm twisted"...)  Though no doubt by this point he has any numbers of favours owed elsewhere, and this might be two or three (or twenty) of them coming due at once.

Informative notes, and nice map, thanks!

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, Alex said:

Tasked is an interesting choice of words here!  Given he's not under any direct obligation to do so

Not under direct obligation (that we know of), but it directly impacts his trade from Esrolia/Heortland.  He undoubtedly figures that the Empire will strike back soon, and will bring their big guns this time.  While he's got plenty of allied warriors with his barbarian horde, Esrolia has copper and Heortland has bronze/tin, and a place to forge weapons at Smithstone.  Likely a good trade incentive to help both out (and at the same time, try to ally Harrek to counter the Lunar Empire's heroes).

[Alex]

Yeah, kills multiple birds -- but it's one heckuva stone!  And spoiler alert needed on anyone unfamiliar with the DP counter sheet. 🙂

[Cassius]

 

Note: Refuge is not Sanctuary and certainly won't be presented as such in Chaosium materials. (Nor can it in Jonstown Compendium materials.)

I don't understand this last sentence.

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, Cassius said:

I don't understand this last sentence.

If anybody was to write something for the Jonstown Compendium about using Thieves World materials for Refuge, then Chaosium will withhold the necessary approval for it to be distributed in the Jonstown Compendium.

Edited February 1, 2022 by metcalph

[Darius West]

On 1/31/2022 at 11:13 AM, jajagappa said:

Note: Refuge is not Sanctuary and certainly won't be presented as such in Chaosium materials. (Nor can it in Jonstown Compendium materials.)

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

I don't understand this last sentence.

In answer, there was a supplement called Thieves World based on a fantasy anthology written in the 1980s around a city called Sanctuary.  Refuge, the city in in the Heortlands was specifically mentioned as the place that could stand in for Sanctuary.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Cassius said:

I don't understand this last sentence.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

In answer, there was a supplement called Thieves World based on a fantasy anthology written in the 1980s around a city called Sanctuary.  Refuge, the city in in the Heortlands was specifically mentioned as the place that could stand in for Sanctuary.

The Thieves World series were written and edited by Robert Asprin and Lynn Abbey.  See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves'_World

Further, Chaosium released a licensed version of Thieves World and the city of Sanctuary around 1981-2 which included stats for using in RuneQuest.  For those interested in setting Sanctuary in Glorantha, the site of Refuge was selected as an option.

Chaosium has not had the license for Thieves World for many, many years, so that sentence is an explicit note that not only will Chaosium not be publishing anything based upon the Thieves World setting, it is also a reminder to writers for the Jonstown Compendium that there is no license for them to do so either.

 

[Stephen L]

On 2/1/2022 at 1:17 PM, jajagappa said:

Further, Chaosium released a licensed version of Thieves World and the city of Sanctuary around 1981-2 which included stats for using in RuneQuest.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves'_World_(role-playing_game)

[Erol of Backford]

Temertain is the son of Jostisan of Karse, son of Markalor, son of Eonistaran the Sage. He has no children. Installed in 1614 (never crowned), and still in office.

Is there any info on Jostisan and for that matter is there any on Temertain when in Karse? It would be interesting for the PC's to bump into Temertain 1600-02 in Karse (before he moves onto his serious studies I think it was in Nochet?). When does Temertain move from Nochet?

Would he not have been considered nobility and have lived in the "Fortress" in Karse?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Temertain when in Karse? It would be interesting for the PC's to bump into Temertain 1600-02 in Karse (before he moves onto his serious studies I think it was in Nochet?). When does Temertain move from Nochet?

I don't think Temertain lived for any length of time in Karse.  He was intelligent and of the line of Sartar, so shipped off to the Knowledge Temple at Nochet probably between age 6-10.  As for his father Jotisan, I don't recall any information of significance, but likely part of the City's Guilds, and could have been Mayor.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think Temertain lived for any length of time in Karse.  He was intelligent and of the line of Sartar, so shipped off to the Knowledge Temple at Nochet probably between age 6-10.  As for his father Jotisan, I don't recall any information of significance, but likely part of the City's Guilds, and could have been Mayor.

Jotisan would have been involved in Tarkalor's venture to revive the harbor, apparently starting as early as 1570 (after his liberation of Whitewall from the Kitori tribe). Whether he could have become the City Rex of Karse is another question - Karse apparently has a status that doesn't associate it completely with the adjoining parts of Heortland, but gives the Marzeel estuary (formerly Creek-Stream River estuary) some special status.

I suppose the "Baron" of Karse inherited from the use of the Midkemia Press City of Carse re-printed (in a much nicer format) by Chaosium has gone the same revision way of Heortland knights, but the territory of Karse is shown as separate on Jeff's tribal map for the region: 

Jotisan is not numbered among the 1594 Holy Country assassinations of the Sartar lineage (in the hardcover edition of King of Sartar), but that list only names descendants of Saronil. Given the Lunar efforts at the time, I have some doubts whether Jotisan survived after 1594, but it is possible that Eonistaran's branch of the family was ignored until Salinarg and his son Harsaltar proved to be unexpectedly effective in delaying the Lunar victory. Jotisan might be among the prospective heirs of Sartar unavailable for the 1600 succession while involved in a Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death, and siblings of Termertain might, too. For all we know even Temertain might have taken part, possibly losing some of the lineage qualities in heroquest challenges but dropping out alive.

 

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

the territory of Karse is shown as separate on Jeff's tribal map for the region

Correct, it heads up a fair number of clans in that area that aren't necessarily part of the Volsaxi tribe (but may or may not join a larger Volsaxi confederation, as with Broyan).

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have some doubts whether Jotisan survived after 1594

There have been a few varied dates for the Lunar assassinations over the years.  I certainly believe he is dead by 1602.

 

[Erol of Backford]

On 1/4/2023 at 5:14 AM, Joerg said:

Jeff's tribal map for the region: 

I am not able to access the link for whatever reason... 

On 1/4/2023 at 5:14 AM, Joerg said:

Salinarg and his son Harsaltar proved to be unexpectedly effective in delaying the Lunar victory

Did they simple resurrect the Emperor? I assume Harsalter as a Humakti could not be resurrected?

So circling back there is a small chance that Temertain was in Karse around 1600 and the PC's may have a chance to meet him at say a festival for the Red Dragon Servant being held there!?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So circling back there is a small chance that Temertain was in Karse around 1600 and the PC's may have a chance to meet him at say a festival for the Red Dragon Servant being held there!?

More likely Temertain is in Nochet in 1600.  Unless some piece of iron Brithini statuary arrives in Karse that he simply must get his hands on.

[nabda]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am not able to access the link for whatever reason... 

Did they simple resurrect the Emperor? I assume Harsalter as a Humakti could not be resurrected?

So circling back there is a small chance that Temertain was in Karse around 1600 and the PC's may have a chance to meet him at say a festival for the Red Dragon Servant being held there!?

Fortunate Succession claims that Ignifer survives that fatal wound (and that claims of his death in battle are false) only to have him murdered by Harrek a few years later. Possibly just usual Emperor/Hero stuff where they don't stay down unless you destroy the body, possibly something else. (Ignifer was the emperor that purged his predecessors' proxies to take more direct control of the imperial administration and rituals, but did he get all of them? Did one or two of them pop back up after he got killed and begin ruling the empire as if there was no break in his continuity of being?)

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, nabda said:

Fortunate Succession claims that Ignifer survives that fatal wound (and that claims of his death in battle are false) only to have him murdered by Harrek a few years later.

Likely since the Lunars were victorious he was healed and resurected?

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Likely since the Lunars were victorious he was healed and resurected?

Not necessary - the Red Emperor is a capital H hero with the heroic escape (from Death/ Hell) ability, like all the heroes named in the boardgame. (Delecti and Keener Than aren't named as heroes, btw.)

[Erol of Backford]

The idea that his head wasn't taken and the body destroyed... its what made me think he was simply resurrected. I suppose if someone was burnt to a crisp and thus the body was destroyed they couldn't be resurrected. This whole "heroic escape" is new to me but I assume no one has allowed PC's to have it? Maybe I'll start a new thread as this is off topic here...

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This whole "heroic escape" is new to me but I assume no one has allowed PC's to have it?

It's not new - the concept appears originally in WBRM for all the heroes, and is noted in the old RQ Companion in discussing Ethilrist if I recall correctly.

You can also find examples in King of Sartar.  E.g. Harrek kills Jar-eel and rips out her heart.  She later returns from Hell having made her escape from that - what she has done to replace her heart is unknown though.

Since earlier RQ versions did not detail heroquesting and potential gains from that, it was not something one could readily play.  It is anticipated that it will be described to some level whenever RQG heroquesting information is available.

[M Helsdon]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's not new - the concept appears originally in WBRM for all the heroes, and is noted in the old RQ Companion in discussing Ethilrist if I recall correctly.

Heroes who succeed in climbing out of the Underworld after death are classified as Kaelith. Such people are powerful superheroes, but, there are never any guarantees that having escaped once they will succeed again.

See the Xeotam Dialogues. As an in-world document it is not entirely reliable and its terminology is likely local to southern Ralios.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/xeotam-dialogues/

[davecake]

On 1/7/2023 at 10:37 PM, M Helsdon said:

Heroes who succeed in climbing out of the Underworld after death are classified as Kaelith. Such people are powerful superheroes, but, there are never any guarantees that having escaped once they will succeed again.

I don’t think just Superheroes - Jonat seems to be just a hero, and is explicitly named as one, Ethrist says he has returned from the underworld once and could do it again, Argrath claims to have done it multiple times quite early in his career.
There are other examples of heroes who have definitely visited the underworld and returned in a Heroquest including Yanafals Tarnils, Hon-Eel, Valare Addi, presumably these would all be considered kaelith by those who knew the term.
Anyone who has quested to the underworld and returned theoretically could do it I think, though most would find it very difficult, and most would not have conscious access to the kaelith ‘powers’. That would include PCs who completed the Eleven Lights quest or who freed Hofstaring, which makes for quite a few in my games! Some preparation might be required (eg the Golden Tear for Eleven Lights). 
An interesting counter-example is Rastalulf of the Vanak Spear, who absolutely has been to the land of the dead and returned, and who does not reappear after the Immolation - I think the doom he accepts with the Vanak Spear from Alaramsor is what prevents him, Alaramsoror instead appears at his death to retrieve the spear. Besides, the allies who assisted his return the first time are (probably) all dead as well by this time. 

I think it’s likely that a determined heroic opponent could make it very difficult to do return,  though it may be difficult to keep a really well resourced/sufficiently magically complex hero down (even Sheng Seleris had difficulty with the Red Emperor, who has a large magical/ otherworldly infrastructure dedicated to his return - and it took two superheroes, although not consciously working together, to permanently defeat Belintar). And of course all bets are off with a Lightbringers Quest to retrieve them. 
Its also notable that a weirdly large number of heroes who died and returned were killed by Harrek - at least Ethilrist, Argrath, Jar-Eel and the Red Emperor - and it’s Jar-Eel who finishes off Belintar even though Harrek has just been fighting him. Presumably he could make it difficult for at least the lesser heroes to return, and generally just doesn’t care to? 

 

 

[davecake]

 I think fairly early in the 1600s Jotisan and other members of the Sartar royal family are either in relative hiding, and avoiding public office and under assumed names, or they are dead, with Temertain surviving only because he is living as just another Apprentice/Sage, and only some of the Sages of the Nochet Knowledge Temple know his ancestry (though one seems to have slipped it to Redbird).