Subsequent Parries

[Rodney Dangerduck]

13 minutes ago, Ryan Kent said:

To add insult to injury is the gift that doubles sword damage that penetrates armor. Sheesh.

The gift that adds +50% hit points to their iron sword, so that it parries 27 points of damage, is mighty sweet too.  If you beef up opponents so they can do around 40 damage to get through this + armor, not many other PCs will survive.  I agree that run away and Dispell are the best counters.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck
Typo

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The gift that adds +50% hit points to their iron sword, so that it parries 27 points of damage, is mighty sweet too.  If you beef up opponents so they can do around 40 damage to get through this + armor, not many other PCs will survive.  I agree that run away and Dispell are the best counters.

Do that to an iron shield, and you're around 50 AP.

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Do that to an iron shield, and you're around 50 AP.

I still don't have W&E, but RAW, there is no iron shield.

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Do that to an iron shield, and you're around 50 AP.

The only metal shield that we have stats for is "Small Bronze" in A&E which has 12 HP, so with +50% gift and +50% for iron that's 25 HP. Maybe some cultures have the technology for larger metal shields, but they appear to be rare in Dragon Pass.

[Shiningbrow]

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The only metal shield that we have stats for is "Small Bronze" in A&E which has 12 HP, so with +50% gift and +50% for iron that's 25 HP. Maybe some cultures have the technology for larger metal shields, but they appear to be rare in Dragon Pass.

There's no logical (or even good.... barely acceptable???) reason why they don't exist. And, thus, I extrapolated... A large wooden shield has 16HP, so one would assume that a large bronze  shield should be at around 20-22, given that the small versions have 50% more... Add another 50% for Iron, and  you'd be at about 30, and then double that for the Gift - 60HP...

(of course, you could always just have a wooden backing with a thin later of metal)

 

I don't see a good reason for limiting the availability of sizes either, given that those making the shield would also make the armour and the weapons. And if you've got the iron available to make a full suit of plate, then you could instead make a large shield...

Edited March 1, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[JustAnotherVingan]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There's no logical (or even good.... barely acceptable???) reason why they don't exist. And, thus, I extrapolated... A large wooden shield has 16HP, so one would assume that a large bronze  shield should be at around 20-22, given that the small versions have 50% more... Add another 50% for Iron, and  you'd be at about 30, and then double that for the Gift - 60HP...

(of course, you could always just have a wooden backing with a thin later of metal)

 

I don't see a good reason for limiting the availability of sizes either, given that those making the shield would also make the armour and the weapons. And if you've got the iron available to make a full suit of plate, then you could instead make a large shield...

Wouldn't a solid metal shield of that size be very heavy? You've got to manouvere the shield to parry.

Large shields were sometimes reinforced with metal which should give some sort of bonus to shield HP but they weren't solid metal if for actual use I think.

[JustAnotherVingan]

Greek bronze age body shields

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Wouldn't a solid metal shield of that size be very heavy? You've got to manouvere the shield to parry.

Large shields were sometimes reinforced with metal which should give some sort of bonus to shield HP but they weren't solid metal if for actual use I think.

And, on occasion, there were metal sheet surfaces attached to a wooden structure, such as the Battersea Shield, and some Aspis.

SDLeary

[PhilHibbs]

I suppose the talk about iron shields raises the question that whilst iron has half again the HP of bronze, how do you handle an object that is part iron and part some other material?

We've already touched on that with spears and arrows, is it reasonable for a wooden spear with an iron tip to have half again the HP? How much of that HP is from the wooden shaft?

Personally, I'm not that bothered about the HP of a spear. The HP of a shield, on the other hand, is a big deal. Saying that an iron shield should have half again the HP, and extrapolating the existence of a large bronze shield, is a bit much. Not all graphs are straight lines.

[Baron Wulfraed]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Personally, I'm not that bothered about the HP of a spear. The HP of a shield, on the other hand, is a big deal. Saying that an iron shield should have half again the HP, and extrapolating the existence of a large bronze shield, is a bit much. Not all graphs are straight lines.

Heck, it could turn out like those trash-can lids used in "Ivanhoe". The shields didn't fall apart, but tended to wrap around the user's arm under impacts 😱

I really doubt anyone is holding, on one arm, something with the mass of a man-hole cover, or even quarter-inch thick sheet metal. That brings it back to more likely being a thin /puncture resistant/ layer mounted upon a wood base -- where the wood provides the structural strength to prevent dents and folds.

 

[Shiningbrow]

Except... We're forgetting the myth and magic of the world.

What GM would say a DI from a Humakti Sword couldn't halve the weight of a shield?

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... We're forgetting the myth and magic of the world.

What GM would say a DI from a Humakti Sword couldn't halve the weight of a shield?

I'm not sure having the weight of a shield would be something looked fondly upon by Humakt. "Get used to it and stop whining, or just damn well use your sword more!"

SDLeary

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I'm not sure having the weight of a shield would be something looked fondly upon by Humakt. "Get used to it and stop whining, or just damn well use your sword more!"

SDLeary

"Shield???

Shields stop you dying. Why are you carrying one? Didn't I put a geas against all shields???"

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... We're forgetting the myth and magic of the world.

What GM would say a DI from a Humakti Sword couldn't halve the weight of a shield?

Humakt is the Sword God, and has no myths about using a shield. For him to bless a shield is similar as to blessing a spear or an axe - out of archetype.

There is the rune spell Earth Shield for a better shield, anyway. A rune spell matrix with Earth Shield might be cheaper than a full iron large shield.

[Akhôrahil]

Also, even several of my group’s non-Humakti PCs prefer parrying with their swords. It’s a significant source of damage against certain opponents. Just get yourself an iron greatsword with the nice gifts on it, it’s shockingly good even before you start using rune magic.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Dragon]

56 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, even several of my group’s non-Humakti PCs prefer parrying with their swords. It’s a significant source of damage against certain opponents. Just get yourself an iron greatsword with the nice gifts on it, it’s shockingly good even before you start using rune magic.

Agreed!

IMHO Humakti should nearly always parry with their weapons. For them, shields are only used against missile fire. Think about it, when you Augment your weapon skill, the shield gets no bonus. But your entire Sword skill gets the bonus from Augment, and thus your parry is approximately 20 better. depending on the Augment roll. When you cast Sword Trance, the shield gets no bonus. Big two handed weapons break things when parrying. You can't be a parry tank against a score of trollkin when you cast Sword Trance with 20 MP and then use a shield to parry.

Babeester Gor Rune Lords specifically should use both one and two handed axes, and hence the needs for both skills. They get all the same benefits as Humakti do above with Augments and Axe Trance on 2H Axe, but they also get Earth Shield and thus know that at times they really need to parry with a shield - hence 1H Axe needed.

Neither of those cults have Shield skill as Rune Lord optional skill, nor even as a Cult Skill they can use for those seasonal rolls. Even Orlanth doesn't have Shield as a cult skill or Wind Lord optional skill.

You know, I expected Yelmalio would have Shield as a cult skill or an optional Light Sun skill...but no.

So yeah, a shield is something you hang on your arm to cover a few locations from arrow fire, not something you parry with. Except when Gors or Orlanthi have cast Earth Shield/Shield of Arran. (This paragraph is tongue in cheek.)

[Akhôrahil]

If you have the ENC to spare, carrying around that new huge shield from W&E just to close on missile opponents seems like the best way for a Humakti to use a shield.

(I did this in Battle Brothers with my two-hander guys, and it's basically BRP.)

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is the rune spell Earth Shield for a better shield, anyway. A rune spell matrix with Earth Shield might be cheaper than a full iron large shield

Yeah, I thought of that. But they'd need good contacts to get it, due to lack of Association (although, no good reason not to be an Orlanthi as well).

7 hours ago, Dragon said:

Neither of those cults have Shield skill as Rune Lord optional skill, nor even as a Cult Skill they can use for those seasonal rolls. Even Orlanth doesn't have Shield as a cult skill or Wind Lord optional skill.

You know, I expected Yelmalio would have Shield as a cult skill or an optional Light Sun skill...but no.

I take shield to fall into the "other weapon" category. Still not part of Babs though.

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I take shield to fall into the "other weapon" category. Still not part of Babs though.

Good point on Humakt/Orlanth. It isn't a cult skill for either, but it is allowed as 'another weapon' or 'another melee weapon' in the Sword of Humakt or Wind Lord requirements. And still not for Light Son optional skills.

I was thinking Yelmalio would have it for phalanx training. But then again, there are geases that forbid use of various shields. So maybe that is the reason it is neither a cult skill nor a Light Son skill.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

So maybe that is the reason it is neither a cult skill nor a Light Son skill.

The reason is that the newer authors hate the crap out of Yelmalio.  They have made the classic RQ2 PC cult of Rurik and Starnia (Griffin Mt.) into a nerfed lame useless uninteresting cult of slaver misogynists.

[Dragon]

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The reason is that the newer authors hate the crap out of Yelmalio.  They have made the classic RQ2 PC cult of Rurik and Starnia (Griffin Mt.) into a nerfed lame useless uninteresting cult of slaver misogynists.

If some Yelmalios had the chance to awaken a Giant Hawk, re Starnia, that would improve its appeal. But even in RQ2, that was limited to Dykene. In RQ3, they had a Light Lady, Vega Goldbreath, in Sun County, which lessened its misogyny slightly.