🛡️ SHIELD 🛡️ (rune spell) errata?

[icebrand]

28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

An adventurer can always cast magic on themself. Likewise they do not need to resist spells cast by themself on themself, they don't have to resist spells cast by others if they don't want to (Healing for example). 

I don't understand that line of reasoning.

In this case, the spell would work because countermagic doesn't stop outbound spells right? (The reasoning seems... Weird? But whatever). Where does the resistance part come from???

[Scotty]

41 minutes ago, icebrand said:

I don't understand that line of reasoning.

Look the Q&A on Shield, treat the different spells as layers, with spellcasting taking place between the protection and shield layer.

41 minutes ago, icebrand said:

In this case, the spell would work because countermagic doesn't stop outbound spells right? (The reasoning seems... Weird? But whatever).

Countermagic doesn't stop the adventurer casting spells, it only applies to spells cast on the adventurer (incoming). The spell description does not state anything about casting spells on on others when the caster is protected by countermagic.

41 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Where does the resistance part come from???

The Magic chapter - Resisting Spells, page 244.

You may find System Crash in the Q&A helpful to read

[icebrand]

19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Look the Q&A on Shield, treat the different spells as layers, with spellcasting taking place between the protection and shield layer.

Whoa, lots to unpack! This isn't in the book at all, is it?

The book says shield is cumulative with both countermagic and protection.

Cumulative (adjective)
increasing or increased in quantity, degree, or force by successive additions.
"the cumulative effect of two years of drought"

But Q&A says they don't stack. My understanding here is that they don't stack such as "shield 2 + protection 4 is not a protection 8 at the time of dispelling it, but still protects 8 points"

By the same logic, shield 2 + countermagic 4 is 8 pts of countermagic, and a 7-pt spell would knock out countermagic and leave you with shield alone.

Yet after reading you I'm under the impression that a 3-pt spell would knock the countermagic, making the combination of both spells useless?

20 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Countermagic doesn't stop the adventurer casting spells, it only applies to spells cast on the adventurer (incoming). The spell description does not state anything about casting spells on on others when the caster is protected by countermagic.

The Magic chapter - Resisting Spells, page 244.

You may find System Crash in the Q&A helpful to read

I apologize in advance but all this stuff is irrelevant to the discussion; please don't take it the wrong way English is my 3rd language, i don't want to sound confrontational, i just don't know how to say this with good words... Sigh.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Note that Countermagic and Shield don't stack, they are cumulative.

Don't those two words mean the same thing? They combine. They stack. The accumulate. Same thing, surely! Unless you mean "stackable" in purely the game mechanical sense, but since that term only applies to rune magic then I think it's clear that we aren't using it in that context.

Ohhh... 💡 I think I get what you are saying. Do you mean that if someone has Countermagic 2 and Shield 1 on them, then a 4 point spirit spell will blow past both (taking down the CM, leaving the shield in place), because it treats them both as independent 2 point countermagic effects? That's not how I read it at all! "The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic" surely means that the effects are cumulative, and not separate and independent! Cumulative means you use addition.

I've never read it that way in over 40 years of RuneQuesting!

Edited April 13, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Don't those two words mean the same thing? They combine. They stack. The accumulate. Same thing, surely! Unless you mean "stackable" in purely the game mechanical sense, but since that term only applies to rune magic then I think it's clear that we aren't using it in that context.

Ohhh... 💡 I think I get what you are saying. Do you mean that if someone has Countermagic 2 and Shield 1 on them, then a 4 point spirit spell will blow past both (taking down the CM, leaving the shield in place), because it treats them both as independent 2 point countermagic effects? That's not how I read it at all! "The effects of this spell are cumulative with either Protection or Countermagic" surely means that the effects are cumulative, and not separate and independent! Cumulative means you use addition.

I've never read it that way in over 40 years of RuneQuesting!

I feel the same.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Don't those two words mean the same thing? They combine. They stack. The accumulate. Same thing, surely!

Yeah these terms are confusing to me too. AFAICT those spells don't combine in any way (stack, accumulate, whatever) and in fact are completely independent of each other except the order in which they are taken into account.

I think the problem is that they don't behave like, say, physical armour does, which acts in layers. If you have a plate armour on top of a leather vest, you first subtract from the damage whatever the plate armour does, and then you subtract what the leather vest does. You can just add both the plate and leather armour values together and use that instead to go faster, since it's mathematically equivalent. It wouldn't be equivalent if we had, say, armour and damage multipliers like in GURPS, though, in which case it would probably be easier to do them one after the other. Now, magic does have multipliers (Rune > Spirit > Sorcery) but I think most people still instinctively think of defensive spells as "layers" of protection, just like with plate armour on top of leather armour. This means that you would somehow subtract the value of the outer defensive spell (Countermagic) from the incoming spell's strength, and then use whatever is left against the inner defensive spell (Shield). But it looks like incoming spells don't "lose" strength the way physical damage does (at least in Rules As Intended), so you only really get as much protection as the highest-value defensive spell you have active on you. The order of those spells is therefore only for order of dispelling (if it happens) and nothing else.

I assume that defensive magic works this way to nerf how high magical defences can go -- preventing 10 people from casting 10 spells on one hero and have that hero carry around 50 points of protection.

Edited April 13, 2022 by lordabdul

[JustAnotherVingan]

32 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I assume that defensive magic works this way to nerf how high magical defences can go -- preventing 10 people from casting 10 spells on one hero and have that hero carry around 50 points of protection.

We always played that you could only have 1 Shield and 1 Protection or Countermagic active at the same time so the problem of mega-defences didn't arise even with stacking them.

I think players will find it less confusing if Protection and Countermagic work with Shield in a similar way so thats how I'll be playing it.

In my experience 90% of the time players prefer more AP rather than more magical defence anyway.

[AndreJarosch]

IMHO it is irrelevant if Shield and Protection/Countermagic can be cast together or not.
Decide for your gaming table which ones can be used together and which ones cancel each other out. 
It doesn´t matter as long at it is the same rule for ANYBODY on your gaming table (including NPCs). 

[Lordabdul]

Just now, AndreJarosch said:

Decide for your gaming table which ones can be used together and which ones cancel each other out.

Pretty much yeah. The main thing that bothers me is that RQG's magic system requires a whole bunch of ad-hoc knowledge or rules-lookup like that, such as "spells X and Y are incompatible with spell Z". Greuuuh.

[AndreJarosch]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Pretty much yeah. The main thing that bothers me is that RQG's magic system requires a whole bunch of ad-hoc knowledge or rules-lookup like that, such as "spells X and Y are incompatible with spell Z". Greuuuh.

Make a list with all the spells the individual PCs know. That will help them as well as yourself. 
Granted NPCs, especial powerful ones with lots of magic ad hand, need more time to familiarize yourself with. 

But nobody expects that the GM has memorized every detail of every Spirit Magic and Rune Magic spell. 
That is why "The Red Book of Magic" is so useful. 

[Lordabdul]

21 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

Make a list with all the spells the individual PCs know. That will help them as well as yourself. 
Granted NPCs, especial powerful ones with lots of magic ad hand, need more time to familiarize yourself with. 

But nobody expects that the GM has memorized every detail of every Spirit Magic and Rune Magic spell. 
That is why "The Red Book of Magic" is so useful.

It either needs to be memorized, or needs to be looked up during the game in the RBoM or in a slightly faster-to-look-up handout the GM prepared. Still, that's work, it takes time, slows the game, and I'm getting old, Andre 😄

[Bill the barbarian]

26 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

Make a list with all the spells the individual PCs know. That will help them as well as yourself. 

Been doing this for a couple of years now (since playing online). It works quite well.
Of course, cut and paste into an online doc helps a lot!

Edited April 13, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Pretty much yeah. The main thing that bothers me is that RQG's magic system requires a whole bunch of ad-hoc knowledge or rules-lookup like that, such as "spells X and Y are incompatible with spell Z". Greuuuh.

It makes me chew my (physical) shield. As i type, foam comes out my mouth.

Apparently Countermagic can be cast at the same time as shield, but literally does nothing. Im not reading this in the book, and the Q&A is very... Messy (maybe it's cristal clear for natives idk).

What puzzles me is... What is the NEED for this? We have a very complicated ruling -way more complex than with pretty much any spell, and not an actual rule- and it does... Nothing?

Like, if countermagic is higher than shield you can cast it as normal, just note under shield that it doesn't stack despite the rules stating that it does...

Rq2:

If Shield and Countermagic are stacked together, and a spell which would normally knock down a Countermagic spell of their total strength is put against this, the Countermagic will go down, but the Shield will stay. Thus, if Ariella put up both points 
of her Shield spell, and added 2 points of Countermagic (a total Countermagic effect of 6 points), and a foe put 5 points behind a Demoralize spell thrown at her, the Demoralize spell would fail, but the 2 points of Countermagic would also be blown down and she would only have her Shield spell left for magic protection.

Meanwhile in RQG we get an abridged copy paste that ends with:

If cast on a target already protected by Countermagic, the Countermagic would be Dispelled before the Shield, if possible.

I read the spells back to back they seem to work the same (why would shield change and that change not be documented in the book but in a "clarification" that adds rules not seen in any other part of the game???

IMHO it's clear that shield has been changed and not properly documented, then patched online, OR shield was always shield and the CM / writer that posted that gave us their house interpretation 

 

[PhilHibbs]

41 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Apparently Countermagic can be cast at the same time as shield, but literally does nothing.

Not true. It uses up a Dispel Magic, providing a buffer for other spells.

[icebrand]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Not true. It uses up a Dispel Magic, providing a buffer for other spells.

You can overcharge your spell (🤢🤢🤢🤮with MP for a much much much better result.

If you cast shield 2 + Countermagic 4, *any* 3 pt spell will knock your Countermagic (according to explanation here, as i read it and always played it, it gave you 8 pts of countermagic)

If you cast shield 2 + 4 MP boost now enemies need dispel magic 8 (!!!).

The boosting option also doesn't require you to know the other spell, and just requires +4 SR vs another whole round casting.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by icebrand

[PhilHibbs]

11 minutes ago, icebrand said:

You can overcharge your spell with MP for a much much much better result.

Not in my game you can't. It's been clarified in the Q&A that you can do this, but there's no justification for it in the rules apart from a vague open ended "...and other things..." statement about boosting with MPs.

The exact wording is "This is typically done to..." implying that there are other reasons to boost.

11 minutes ago, icebrand said:

If you cast shield 2 + 4 MP boost now enemies need dispel magic 8 (!!!).

No, if I accepted that Q&A ruling then they'd need Dispel Magic 4 (or Dismiss Magic 2) with a 4 MP boost.

Edited April 13, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Not in my game you can't. It's been clarified in the Q&A that you can do this, but there's no justification for it in the rules apart from a vague open ended "...and other things..." statement about boosting with MPs.

The exact wording is "This is typically done to..." implying that there are other reasons to boost.

  

No, you need Dispel Magic 4 with a 4 MP boost.

In my game you can't either. I find that ruling pretty out there, same issue as shield, reads more like a house rule than actual clarification.

I haven't met a single person that didn't either let shield stack or made it incompatible, and 0 people defensively boosting.

If all the Q&A is like this I'm pretty sure I'm completely ignoring it. Everything i read on it rubs me the wrong way and works unlike any BRP table I've been at

[Dragon]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:00 PM, icebrand said:

Apparently Countermagic can be cast at the same time as shield, but literally does nothing. Im not reading this in the book, and the Q&A is very... Messy (maybe it's cristal clear for natives idk).

What puzzles me is... What is the NEED for this? We have a very complicated ruling -way more complex than with pretty much any spell, and not an actual rule- and it does... Nothing?

Like, if countermagic is higher than shield you can cast it as normal, just note under shield that it doesn't stack despite the rules stating that it does...

Rq2:

If Shield and Countermagic are stacked together, and a spell which would normally knock down a Countermagic spell of their total strength is put against this, the Countermagic will go down, but the Shield will stay. Thus, if Ariella put up both points 
of her Shield spell, and added 2 points of Countermagic (a total Countermagic effect of 6 points), and a foe put 5 points behind a Demoralize spell thrown at her, the Demoralize spell would fail, but the 2 points of Countermagic would also be blown down and she would only have her Shield spell left for magic protection.

Meanwhile in RQG we get an abridged copy paste that ends with:

If cast on a target already protected by Countermagic, the Countermagic would be Dispelled before the Shield, if possible.

I read the spells back to back they seem to work the same (why would shield change and that change not be documented in the book but in a "clarification" that adds rules not seen in any other part of the game???

IMHO it's clear that shield has been changed and not properly documented, then patched online, OR shield was always shield and the CM / writer that posted that gave us their house interpretation 

Well, not the 'same' time, there are only a few times when you can cast two spells at the same moment. They can certainly be in effect at the same time.

The need of it is to protect you better. Take a different example, Shield and Protection. Someone with Shield 2 and Protection 4 stops 8 damage due to the magical protection (then armor). Everyone can see the benefit in that. Likewise for Spirit Block 2 and Spirit Screen 4 which stops 8 points of Spirit Combat damage.

So take that example for Shield and Countermagic, at the same levels. If someone casts 3 points of Cause Disease at you: Shield 2 isn't going to stop it, Shield 2 and Countermagic 2 will stop it and go down, Shield 2 and Countermagic 4 will stop it and remain in full effect. 

Dispel Magic 4 will take down the Countermagic 4. Then the next Dispel Magic 4 will take down the Shield 2. Dispel Magic 8 will take down one spell, the Countermagic 4, not the entire combination. In other words to be efficient, the person casting Dispel needs to be really good at guessing or have some spell like Soul Sight which allows them to see magic points of spells "including the amount devoted to currently in-effect spells (such as defensive spells)."

Soul Sight will note two different 4 magic point spells currently in effect. It doesn't tell you exactly if those spells are Shield 2, Countermagic 4, Protection 4, Shimmer 4, Spirit Screen 4, Absorption 2, Reflect 2, Parry 4, Ironhand 4, Bear's Strength, Sea Strength, Scram 2, or Shield of Darkness 2. Shimmer 4 or Shield of Darkness 2 have rather obvious visual effects. There will also be individually recognizable visual effects to most of the Rune spells. e.g. a user with Bear's Strength will have a superimposed bear image around them. Parties which want to dispel often are well served to have Soul Sight ready.

Note: Maybe Parry 4 shows as a 4 point magical spell on the shield rather than the person.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Dragon said:

Well, not the 'same' time, there are only a few times when you can cast two spells at the same moment. They can certainly be in effect at the same time.

The need of it is to protect you better. Take a different example, Shield and Protection. Someone with Shield 2 and Protection 4 stops 8 damage due to the magical protection (then armor). Everyone can see the benefit in that. Likewise for Spirit Block 2 and Spirit Screen 4 which stops 8 points of Spirit Combat damage.

So take that example for Shield and Countermagic, at the same levels. If someone casts 3 points of Cause Disease at you: Shield 2 isn't going to stop it, Shield 2 and Countermagic 2 will stop it and go down, Shield 2 and Countermagic 4 will stop it and remain in full effect. 

Dispel Magic 4 will take down the Countermagic 4. Then the next Dispel Magic 4 will take down the Shield 2. Dispel Magic 8 will take down one spell, the Countermagic 4, not the entire combination. In other words to be efficient, the person casting Dispel needs to be really good at guessing or have some spell like Soul Sight which allows them to see magic points of spells "including the amount devoted to currently in-effect spells (such as defensive spells)."

Soul Sight will note two different 4 magic point spells currently in effect. It doesn't tell you exactly if those spells are Shield 2, Countermagic 4, Protection 4, Shimmer 4, Spirit Screen 4, Absorption 2, Reflect 2, Parry 4, Ironhand 4, Bear's Strength, Sea Strength, Scram 2, or Shield of Darkness 2. Shimmer 4 or Shield of Darkness 2 have rather obvious visual effects. There will also be individually recognizable visual effects to most of the Rune spells. e.g. a user with Bear's Strength will have a superimposed bear image around them. Parties which want to dispel often are well served to have Soul Sight ready.

Note: Maybe Parry 4 shows as a 4 point magical spell on the shield rather than the person.

Gonna be terrified when they see the  maxxed out sorcery buffs 🤭