My review/musings on Weapons & Equipment

[Runeblogger]

You can read it here:

https://elruneblog.blogspot.com/2022/04/review-of-weapons-equipment-for.html

Comments are very welcome!   😊

[Runeblogger]

A question: in Weapons & Equipment it is said that "Usually when people know one another, money is not used to settle debts. Favors may be used in place of currency, assuming each party agrees to the exchange."

Is it established how much a favor is? In King of Dragon Pass, a favor is around 20 cows (20W). Is it like that still?  🤔

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

A question: in Weapons & Equipment it is said that "Usually when people know one another, money is not used to settle debts. Favors may be used in place of currency, assuming each party agrees to the exchange."

Is it established how much a favor is? In King of Dragon Pass, a favor is around 20 cows (20W). Is it like that still?  🤔

It doesn't seem right to be monetizing what is specifically non monetized.  I suggest that at the Individed level favors are scaled to the person's income, status, and abilities.  Yes a very nebulous concept.  So "when people know each other" is important.  

 

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

 I suggest that at the Individed level favors are scaled to the person's income, status, and abilities.  Yes a very nebulous concept. 

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that.

I was thinking that the roughly 20 cows a favor is worth in KoDP must be at the Sartarite clan level, that is, from one clan to another. When favors are asked from individuals, it will be much different, also from one culture to another.

However, knowing how important gifts are for the Orlanthi culture, with generosity being one of the main Orlanthi virtues, I'm sure tradition must have established rough equivalences for favors, as you say, according to status and income. Otherwise, how can you be certain you are being generous by giving more than expected as a favor you owe?

[JustAnotherVingan]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that.

I was thinking that the roughly 20 cows a favor is worth in KoDP must be at the Sartarite clan level, that is, from one clan to another. When favors are asked from individuals, it will be much different, also from one culture to another.

However, knowing how important gifts are for the Orlanthi culture, with generosity being one of the main Orlanthi virtues, I'm sure tradition must have established rough equivalences for favors, as you say, according to status and income. Otherwise, how can you be certain you are being generous by giving more than expected as a favor you owe?

If you wanted a figure for the value of a favour I'd base it on ransom.

Someone who is resurrected by the Chaleena Arroy healers is expected to pay them that amount and if they can't their cult or clan will and they will then owe their cult or clan.

The thing about favours is that they are going to vary greatly in value. A noble who saves a herders life will probably forgo the favour and look generous, but a herder saving a noble's life would hope for a big reward. Most favours probably aren't for things as major as saving someones life.

[Squaredeal Sten]

And there are favors and favors.  It's a favor to house and feed you as a guest for a night.  It is a more Iportant favor to warn you of an approaching enemy - and that is one that a stick picker can do for a king.  It is an entirely different level of favor to save your life.  

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It doesn't seem right to be monetizing what is specifically non monetized.

+1
Ever so much this!

The character sheet should not read, "18 Wheels, 7 Favors, 91 Lunars"

 Instead, I'd want to see 7 iterations of something like:
"Favor:  Sea Season 1622 ... Lead a diversionary raid on Lunar Warehouse eastside Pavis, so Wixson Ogre-Killer could break his kinsman out of captivity."

How do you set a price on something like that?

I mean, sure -- do it to "settle a debt."  Maybe "Wixson Ogre-Killer" paid a ransom that you didn't have funds for; and then when he wanted to free his kinsman, this opportunity came up.  NOW, you don't owe him a repayment of the ransom:  you paid that debt!

If you wanted to "equate" the favor to the paid ransom... well, YGMV.  IMHO, the money is no longer an issue -- you & Wixson are now entangled together by bonds of honor.

More particularly, for the RQG context:  it moves things from the financial/accounting realm to the storytelling & RPG'ing realm!

Edited April 18, 2022 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Is it established how much a favor is? In King of Dragon Pass, a favor is around 20 cows (20W). Is it like that still?  🤔

Don t use it for a real table:

when you design a computer game like it you must remember there is no gamemaster to define (or bargain with player) the favor

not the same to kill a dragon , accept to marry with a loved but invalid son, or save from the river two children

Use text favor and imagine what could be a good « return »

of course just my opinion

and maybe in 30years computer games will be able to replace gm who knows!

 

[Akhôrahil]

Throwing a great party for your neighbours is a favor. Saving someone’s life at the risk of your own is a favor. While I think they are technically commensurable, the difference in value is immense.

I think it makes sense to treat these as debts of an approximately value. You might want to track them that way if you want to be detailed.

This can be as minor as you giving the shoemaker a dozen eggs per week for a while, and then you can ask for a new pair of shoes. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

...

I think it makes sense to treat these as debts of an approximately value. You might want to track them that way if you want to be detailed.

This can be as minor as you giving the shoemaker a dozen eggs per week for a while, and then you can ask for a new pair of shoes. 

I think barter -- alternate, non-monetized commerce -- is fine to track in approximate financial terms, sure!

But when you get into other realms, it can be much harder -- possibly even pointless -- to try doing that.

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Throwing a great party for your neighbours is a favor.

But what, when you "throw a great party" and specifically arrange for some (otherwise out-of-reach) VIP to be there, so the neighbor can meet them and make some additional arrangement; or introduce a very-eligible spouse for the eldest child; or etc?

Even when "throwing parties," not every party is equal, and some may be hugely more valuable (and hard to assign monetary value!) than others... 

 

[JustAnotherVingan]

Favours within a group might not even need to be tracked. Someone of your clan, unless they are a rival or a known freeloader, you'd probably help in minor ways in the expectation they'd do the same for you. I think its suggested that Loyalty (Clan)  could be used here.

[g33k]

52 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Favours within a group might not even need to be tracked. Someone of your clan, unless they are a rival or a known freeloader, you'd probably help in minor ways in the expectation they'd do the same for you. I think its suggested that Loyalty (Clan)  could be used here.

I'd adjust Reputation, too:  consider the rep of someone who freely helps when asked, and often helps without being asked; vs someone who only helps grudgingly, often makes excuses not to help...  "Go ask Barak the Generous up in the North Vale, don't bother with Barak the Stingy, down by the river.  And here, take this side of ribs to his wife!"

[Bill the barbarian]

Reputation, If I recall the rules correctly, can be good or bad and are treated equally, no? Kinda like today’s axiom: There’s no such thing as bad press.

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Reputation, If I recall the rules correctly, can be good or bad and are treated equally, no? Kinda like today’s axiom: There’s no such thing as bad press.

 

yep but in all cases you will remember the one who helps and not the one who does nothing

[svensson]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Reputation, If I recall the rules correctly, can be good or bad and are treated equally, no? Kinda like today’s axiom: There’s no such thing as bad press.

 

Just because you're 'famous' doesn't mean you're 'good famous'. They may remember your name, but is that memory a good one?

There are people who go to see band reunion tours just to watch the train wreck, after all.

The 'press' axiom only accounts for money, not respect or credibility. Witness today's 'Cancel culture' where an act somebody did 30 years ago can utterly derail an entire life's work. There is another old saying that applies in this case: "It only takes one 'Oh shit' to erase a thousand 'Attaboys'."

[svensson]

@Runeblogger

I found the book to be a VERY handy addendum to the table.

Like you, I wished that there was more discussion about cultural norms. After all, a Lunar large shield is going to look WAY different than an Agimori one. I found that while some information was contained in the GM Pack and RQG rules, having them together in context with each other did serve to clarify some aspects.

As for the Land Management System, I think that if players wanted to play Civ or Age of Empires they wouldn't be at a table playing RQ in the first place. The system isn't so much a land simulation as a way for players to improve the output of their property from a roleplay standpoint. It's rather like that scene in 'Kingdom of Heaven' where Balian goes to Ibelin for the first time, gets a look at the accounts, and decides the one thing he can do to immediate improve his situation is find more water. So everybody from the lowest sheep herder to the lord himself, gets a shovel and starts digging. [BTW, and totally as an aside, given the notorious expense of wood in Outremer, the most expensive thing in the whole project was the wooden gutters that brought the water up from the 20 ft. deep well. And those gutters would have to be replaced wholesale at least once every three years. Good effort, though]

[JustAnotherVingan]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

I'd adjust Reputation, too:  consider the rep of someone who freely helps when asked, and often helps without being asked; vs someone who only helps grudgingly, often makes excuses not to help...  "Go ask Barak the Generous up in the North Vale, don't bother with Barak the Stingy, down by the river.  And here, take this side of ribs to his wife!"

Your reputation if you are recognised (quite likely in your own clan) could get you a bonus or minus to the likelihood of someone helping you. Homeland Lore (again with a bonus for your own area or if the person has high reputation) to know something of the person you are dealing with.

I wouldn't make a character roll on their own customs skill to know whats appropriate to offer or request, but if dealing with someone from another culture they might have to make a roll on their customs or elder race lore.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Just because you're 'famous' doesn't mean you're 'good famous'. They may remember your name, but is that memory a good one?

 

You are talking reality, but just not according to the rules (THEY DIVERGE? Who knew?). By mechanism, reputation is reputation. The Rules do state that you record the reason for the rep boost, but do not say why or give mechanics for this, good or bad.

 

Quote

 

Using Reputation

Reputation is used in two ways—to identify an adventurer and their deeds, and by the adventurer to impress others.

Identifying an Adventurer

Reputation may be used by non-player characters to identify an adventurer and the nature of that fame, or for an adventurer to determine if they have heard of a particular non-player character. The gamemaster should apply any appropriate Reputation bonuses or penalties. An adventurer may try to augment their Reputation (or that of another person) with Orate or Sing, if they want to increase the chance of the non-player character to recognize them (which might be

 

RQ RiG page 238

 

Quote

Reputation does not increase as a result of experience checks. Instead, it is handed out at the gamemaster’s discretion, based on deeds and achievements. Reputation can also increase through negative deeds. It does not decrease as Passions or Runes do: breaking an oath, behaving dishonorably, or committing foul deeds can make one just as famous (or even more so) than right action and heroic achievements.

RQ RiG page 237

 

4 hours ago, svensson said:

There are people who go to see band reunion tours just to watch the train wreck, after all.

The 'press' axiom only accounts for money, not respect or credibility.

You are either an optimist or have much more faith than I do in our culture and society. This gets into murky non-gaming topics such as politics so I will tread lightly and just say in my 6 plus decades I see no reason to give people the benefit of the doubt here. What I consider to be bad rep is often spun into gold and vice versa.

 

 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yep but in all cases you will remember the one who helps and not the one who does nothing

Agreed, but that is not part of the raw Rep score but is part of the handwavium explanation that you should record rep gains. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[JustAnotherVingan]

31 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

You are talking reality, but just not according to the rules (THEY DIVERGE? Who knew?). By mechanism, reputation is reputation. The Rules do state that you record the reason for the rep boost, but do not say why or give mechanics for this, good or bad.

 

RQ RiG page 238

 

RQ RiG page 237

 

You are either an optimist or have much more faith than I do in our culture and society. This gets into murky non-gaming topics such as politics so I will tread lightly and just say in my 6 plus decades I see no reason to give people the benefit of the doubt here. What I consider to be bad rep is often spun into gold and vice versa.

 

 

Agreed, but that is not part of the raw Rep score but is part of the handwavium explanation that you should record rep gains. 

I would say that successful use of reputation gives you a bonus if a player uses it in a way that fits their reputation.

1 of my players has a Storm Bull ex-bandit. His reputation helps with Intimidation attempts or convincing people hes a good choice to help fight Lunars or Chaos, but probably wouldn't help him get a job as a caravan guard.

Ofc players being players a lot of them will have really mixed reputations.

"You're the guy who led the charge that saved the day at Dangerford. Didn't you kill Little Willem because he was sitting in your chair?"

[Runeblogger]

Someone on this forum (I wish I remember who it was) shared a nifty idea: every time you accrue Reputation, either for good or bad feats, you note down the feat next to the number of the increase. Then when some NPC succeeds on your Reputation score to see if they know you, the result of the roll directs to the number on your Reputation increase list, and then they remember you for at least that particular event, either good or bad. For example:

Hedker has Reputation 20%:

17-20 --> Fumbled a Sing roll before Queen Leika and her ring of advisors
15-16 --> Defeated the Antorling champion in single duel
14 --> Led a successful raid against the Varmandi.
10-13 --> Became thane of Apple Lane
02-09 --> etc.
01 --> 

Some NPC rolls a 18 when meeting him, so he remembers hearing about how a guy named Hedker made a shame of himself by making her queen's ears bleed. Perhaps someone living closer to Hedker (same tribe, for example) who got the same result could remember an extra event chosen randomly from the list.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Someone on this forum (I wish I remember who it was) shared a nifty idea: every time you accrue Reputation, either for good or bad feats, you note down the feat next to the number of the increase. Then when some NPC succeeds on your Reputation score to see if they know you, the result of the roll directs to the number on your Reputation increase list, and then they remember you for at least that particular event, either good or bad. For example:

Hedker has Reputation 20%:

17-20 --> Fumbled a Sing roll before Queen Leika and her ring of advisors
15-16 --> Defeated the Antorling champion in single duel
14 --> Led a successful raid against the Varmandi.
10-13 --> Became thane of Apple Lane
02-09 --> etc.
01 --> 

Some NPC rolls a 18 when meeting him, so he remembers hearing about how a guy named Hedker made a shame of himself by making her queen's ears bleed. Perhaps someone living closer to Hedker (same tribe, for example) who got the same result could remember an extra event chosen randomly from the list.

a very interesting idea

my only concern is there is only one memory you remember.

I would add something like your roll give you how many "points" you remember

for example with a result of 5 you remember [the fumble and the defeat] or [the fumble and apple lane] when a roll of 20 you remember everything

I would say the gm decides, to propose the more obvious deeds. For example, if the npc is from apple lane, of course he remember the guy is the thane of apple lane (of course there is no reason to roll the reputation to recognize the guy, but to remember all his feats)

Edited April 19, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We generally note the "deed" next to the reputation bonus.  I love the idea of tying this into what strangers know about you.  Instead of a die roll, I might just have the GM choose one or two deeds for MGF.

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:18 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Don t use it for a real table:

when you design a computer game like it you must remember there is no gamemaster to define (or bargain with player) the favor

not the same to kill a dragon , accept to marry with a loved but invalid son, or save from the river two children

Use text favor and imagine what could be a good « return »

of course just my opinion

and maybe in 30years computer games will be able to replace gm who knows!

 

Except that it does. Certainly not as free-form as a person GM, but the game does allow for bargaining, and how you decide to repay a debt is recorded.

Usually there were a number of options, and your advisors would suggest various things - pay less because the debt isn't worth that much, pay more because it's good for reputation, pay what they ask because it's all we owe, etc...

Some situations include letting the other clan have a valuable artifact, giving them cows, etc etc.

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except that it does. Certainly not as free-form as a person GM, but the game does allow for bargaining, and how you decide to repay a debt is recorded.

Usually there were a number of options, and your advisors would suggest various things - pay less because the debt isn't worth that much, pay more because it's good for reputation, pay what they ask because it's all we owe, etc...

Some situations include letting the other clan have a valuable artifact, giving them cows, etc etc.

yes for sure the player decides (i played the game a lot of times, and it seems I am a little bit too influenced by the game background to see rqg glorantha)

But and that is important, the player decides among x options, and then decide more or less than the "standard" price. The issue (more a risk if you want to transpose it in a campaign), is there is one standard (for example 3 magic points, or X cows - i don't remember -) for all the favors.

That is not an issue for the game, it is balanced for itself.

But this system, smart for this game, seems to me too "light" for a table, open world, with people able to do and imagine more than follow a script.