Elmal/Yelmalio in Holy country

[JonL]

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

every time I think about yelmalio, I see sun county (or little sun county quarter in big cities)

but... is it possible to find Yelmalio cultist in a "standard" clan (in esrolia, heort, sartar) ? In this case, is he considered as a weird guy ? or just as any worshiper of the storm tribe, fully integrated in the clan, without any issue ?  (don't know if I can use the storm in esrolia context but you see what I mean

Part of why the recent revision is a struggle for some folks is that while we are told that the Mo Bustra Sun Domers are unusual in many respects, few of the published descriptions we've gotten for other chapters have materially differed from their model. Things like their marriage rules, challenge requirements, mercenary bent, and Three Blows Struck in Anger seem to clash hard with being a part of a Heortling community. The contrast with the HQ-era Elmal cult that was very culturally specific to being a Little Sun follower within Heortling society is jarring. That was fine when the picture was rival sects dominant in different areas, but a Yelmalion next-door is hard to conceptualize.  Hopefully further releases will ease this cognitive dissonance. 

As far as more diverse pictures of Sun Domers go, I'd love to learn more about that one in the far NW that's been chugging along in isolation since the Bright Empire days. Mo Bustra only thinks they were the isolated ones. 🙂

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by JonL

[French Desperate WindChild]

thanks @Jeff and @Eff

I'm seeing I was'nt very clear and misused  some terms

 

what I called [storm tribes]  where the tribes (human) worshipping the storm+earth pantheon (aka Orlanth is the king of the gods, Ernalda is his wife, etc...) like red cow, colymar, etc... for example

A lot of people  use the word "Orlanthi" for that I think, but my issue is that could be seen as Orlanthi = worshippers of Orlanth himself. Well same issue with storm tribe ^^

 

and of course to be less clear, I used sun county and not sun dome but not sure it is a true difference

So I will reformulate what I understand (thanks your answers), what is still (or new) questions

 

1) in a standard sartarite/ old tarshite / heortland / esrolian clan, yelmalio cultists exist as member of the clan.

However, can they get a good position (ring, land etc...) without more difficulties than a Yinkin or Issaries or Maran gor worshipper ?

 

2) I'm very not clear about sun dome in Dragon Pass... and even more confused with your words, @Jeff :

Quote

The temples in Dragon Pass and South Peloria are likely more typical of the cult.

I saw it like the sun dome in sun county: a county/region/district/... independant of any local power, with its own rules, social position, so of course temple(s) but you will find villages, farmers,  tax collectors, administration, milice/army etc... 

Or the praxian sun county is very different and the Sun Dome in DP are only a temple with few dependencies, following the rules of the local Orlanth-rex (or Esrolian queen) ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

23 minutes ago, JonL said:

 

Part of why the recent revision is a struggle for some folks is that while we are told that the Mo Bustra Sun Domers are unusual in many respects, few of the published descriptions we've gotten for other chapters have materially differed from their model. Things like their marriage rules, challenge requirements, mercenary bent, and Three Blows Struck in Anger seem to clash hard with being a part of a Heortling community. The contrast with the HQ-era Elmal cult that was very culturally specific to being a Little Sun follower within Heortling society is jarring. That was fine when the picture was rival sects dominant in different areas, but a Yelmalion next-door is hard to conceptualize.  Hopefully further releases will ease this cognitive dissonance. 

As far as more diverse pictures of Sun Domers go, I'd love to learn more about that one in the far NW that's been chugging along in isolation since the Bright Empire days. Mo Bustra only thinks they were the isolated ones. 🙂

 

yep I never heard about Elmal before King of dragon pass (so no rpg rules/description)and this forum (no HQ-era for me) but, just with my old french material, I had a too simple conception of the world :

sartarite follows Orlanth/Ernalda&co and the light bringers

praxian follows Waha Eirithra and of course Storm Bull

and yelmalio can be found are these !@- guys near Pavis and part of the Peloria society.

 

It is more complex (and I like it) but it's hard to change a perception after so many decades of blindness 😛

 

[JonL]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the Sun Dome in DP are only a temple with few dependencies, following the rules of the local Orlanth-rex (or Esrolian queen) ?

Tragically, they do neither. While Monrogh swore loyalty to Tarkalor personally, Sun Dome County did not become a vassal state of Sartar. Monrogh's successors then proved all too willing to take Dara Happan Wheels from the Lunars to make war on the communities their predecessors once defended. 

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

 

Let's go back to our first framework. What's Yelmalio's role within the overall social order? We have the Elmal cult of King of Dragon Pass/Storm Tribe, which has a straightforward kind of social role- horses, hatchetmen, guarding things that aren't related to the Earth. Yelmalio seems to have taken that over almost entirely, so we have a kind of vision of what Yelmalio people might be doing, and it seems like they'd have a social space for them to exist without them being weird guys. 

Most of those things actually got done by Orlanth cultists. Let's think of where they weren't:

The Horse Triarchy: These folk had the Sky Horse (aka Yelmalio) as their tribal patron. They worshiped horses, held them as holy - and also worshiped Hippoi and Hyalor, as the specifically horse deities.  They are one of the few groups that did not end up relocating to the Sun Dome Temple, probably because for them the Horse element was more important than the Sky.

Troll Fighting: Folk specialised in fighting against the Trolls. Although the Hendriki were long allied with the Only Old One, they had their Light-worshipers there in reserve. The cult was preferred by the Only Old One to more powerful Fire and Light cults.

Solid infantry fighters: As a small but cohesive cult in a sea of Orlanthi, the Yelmalions were always better at being cohesive and solid infantry fighters. This goes back to the Second Age. Its not magical, it is something that the cult has done to be able to punch above its weight.

 

[scott-martin]

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The cult was preferred by the Only Old One to more powerful Fire and Light cults.

Keeping in mind that other cults like Orlanth have been historically suppressed and recovered (blessings upon you, Harmast Rainmaker), there's an entire hidden epic saga of loss, liberation, betrayal and revolt here for people invested in Little Sun to reconstruct. Or go to those distant domes and gather all the scattered magic kept from them by political expediency, then come back and we will admire the great work.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Keeping in mind that other cults like Orlanth have been historically suppressed and recovered (blessings upon you, Harmast Rainmaker), there's an entire hidden epic saga of loss, liberation, betrayal and revolt here for people invested in Little Sun to reconstruct. Or go to those distant domes and gather all the scattered magic kept from them by political expediency, then come back and we will admire the great work.

Yes. Of course, as I see it the hidden epic that was reconstructed was Yelmalio. 

So during the Second Age, we had a network of thriving and vibrant Yelmalio temples from Prax to Fronela. But with the Dragonkill War this was broken, disassociated. Individual temples were left to be autonomous, and much was lost or stolen.

In Hendrikiland, the local Yelmalio cult became little more than a Spirit Cult associated with the larger Orlanth cult. The cult fled to Dragon Pass after Belintar became ruler (Heortland had no need for a small Fire/Sky deity, when Lodril was available for that position). That little cult came into contact with the vibrant Yelm cult of Peloria and many abandoned our little cult for Yelm. Others revolted against the Orlanth Rex cult, in betrayal and revolt.

Monrogh saw through the loss, and liberated the lost Yelmalio who was behind our little cult all the time. He revealed the Many Suns of the Sun Dome temples, and restored the Sun Dome network! The shadows and clouds dispersed and we could all admire the Light of Yelmalio!

[Ali the Helering]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Greg had very little to do with that writeup. And Book of Heortling Mythology was filled with draft ideas from us without any editing. I am sure I have said many times that Greg was ambivalent about publishing that for exactly that reason (same with Arcane Lore).

Nonetheless, you asked for sources.  There they are.  Repudiating them now doesn't mean they don't exist and weren't established and published canon for years.

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Nonetheless, you asked for sources.  There they are.  Repudiating them now doesn't mean they don't exist and weren't established and published canon for years.

I was curious what you were basing it off. Obviously not RQ, but the SKoH stuff I wrote. OK.

But as a creator, I am perfectly entitled to say that I don't think the stuff I wrote in SKoH really fits the setting we've put together since the Guide to Glorantha. I've said for years that SKoH is not canon, and Heortling Mythology was NEVER intended to be canon.

[Ali the Helering]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I was curious what you were basing it off. Obviously not RQ, but the SKoH stuff I wrote. OK.

But as a creator, I am perfectly entitled to say that I don't think the stuff I wrote in SKoH really fits the setting we've put together since the Guide to Glorantha. I've said for years that SKoH is not canon, and Heortling Mythology was NEVER intended to be canon.

I made no reference to SKoH, so no, not that.  Even if it were, saying it isn't canon doesn't mean it wasn't in the past.

While HM wasn't canon, Storm Tribe was.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

I made no reference to SKoH, so no, not that.  Even if it were, saying it isn't canon doesn't mean it wasn't in the past.

While HM wasn't canon, Storm Tribe was.

Not for a very long time. Certainly not since 2009 at the latest. Heck, it is arguable that there was no canon back in the Issaries Inc times, as Greg certainly didn't feel restricted by anything that was published under the Issaries imprint. 

[SDLeary]

The thing is, if something is published under a gaming company's imprint without any sort of disclaimer or sub-branding (Jonstown Compendium), then it is generally considered canon. It certainly doesn't mean that things can't change, but is considered canon.

SDLeary

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, SDLeary said:

The thing is, if something is published under a gaming company's imprint without any sort of disclaimer or sub-branding (Jonstown Compendium), then it is generally considered canon. It certainly doesn't mean that things can't change, but is considered canon.

SDLeary

Then make it easier for yourself. The canon for Chaosium is Chaosium publications. That way we can skip the Issaries and Moon Design publications (except for those that are now Chaosium publications). That way you can say Sun County and King of Sartar are canon, and Storm Tribe is not. 

To me these "canon" discussions are silly - I have 55 years of Glorantha in my office, from Greg, from Sandy, from myself, and others. The goal with the current edition is to present that text into a cohesive way that that lets RuneQuest and other games be played in a rich and deep setting that can be built upon for many years to come. 

But for whatever reason, it always comes down to Elmal. Like Templars in an Umberto Eco story.

[Ali the Helering]

27 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But for whatever reason, it always comes down to Elmal. Like Templars in an Umberto Eco story.

Actually, it doesn't, but it is the most obvious fracture point.  When Greg revealed Elmal, I was highly resistant since I liked playing Yelmalions.  However, mythologically it was appropriate.  

Personally, I think that the understanding of religion per se was best exemplified in Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, with the simplification since being a real loss.

What it comes down to is Glorantha, and how Greg hooked each of us.  That will determine our vision, and our personal canon. 

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Actually, it doesn't, but it is the most obvious fracture point.  When Greg revealed Elmal, I was highly resistant since I liked playing Yelmalions.  However, mythologically it was appropriate.  

Personally, I think that the understanding of religion per se was best exemplified in Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, with the simplification since being a real loss.

What it comes down to is Glorantha, and how Greg hooked each of us.  That will determine our vision, and our personal canon. 

Mythically it was appropriate to understand the Orlanthi of the Dawn. That was the extent that Greg cared about Elmal. But KoS made it clear that by the Hero Wars Elmal was recognized as the Yelmalio we all know. Greg was working on his Harmast materials, set in the First Age. In fact, from about 1991 to 2012 or so, Greg had very little interest in the Third Age = his focus was the First and to a much lesser extent the Second Ages. It was working on the Guide that brought Greg back to the Third Age.

And this was the huge problem with Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, and the whole Hero Wars line - materials that were intended for the First Age got repurposed and packaged into a rules system that few of the writers or the editors even understood. Worse yet, Greg was not the editor on that material - that was someone who had a VERY DIFFERENT view of Glorantha than Greg (and did not play RPGs, which showed). Needless to say, once that person was removed from the process, things looked very different.

[Jeff]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:14 PM, Jeff said:

Maybe 1% of the population in the Holy Country follow Yelmalio. The area was part of the Shadowlands for over a thousand years. That being said 1% of the population of Esrolia means there are more than 10,000 initiates in Esrolia alone.

Lodril is a far more important Fire/Sky deity in the Holy Country.

But going back to the original question about Yelmalio in the Holy Country, he is a minor god, but present. No Sun Dome Temples or Yelmalion-dominated tribes though.

[JonL]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The canon for Chaosium is Chaosium publications. That way we can skip the Issaries and Moon Design publications (except for those that are now Chaosium publications).

My copy of SKoH says "Chaosium" on the spine, as far as that goes. 🤷🏼‍♀️

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Actually, it doesn't, but it is the most obvious fracture point.

Yeah, things like moving from to the Guide + HQ2/G Rune rosters for the gods to the more limited RQG set have lots of subtle implications, but swapping Your Friendly Neighborhood Paladins for Mercenary Slaver Separatists is something of a hard swerve (to say nothing of erasing Redalda).

The question I'm most interested in here is how the native Esrovuli Little Sun traditions and myths might differ from what you might find in either Vanntar or Rune Gate.   

[Lordabdul]

FWIW I got Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe solely for the descriptions of holy days, which gives ideas of what to run in a game when those days come up. I was hoping that holy days descriptions were going to make it into the upcoming cults book, but last I heard, they aren't, so I guess these two books will still be useful for that. But otherwise, I found the numerous god names and subcult names tedious, and the pigeonholing of abilities and gender roles annoying, so I'm happy it got retconned. Discussions about what is canon or not are useful (to know what's up with the current version of Chaosium's Glorantha), but arguments and complaints about changes in the canon aren't generally worthwhile -- let it go, already, and play it differently at your table if you want.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

But going back to the original question about Yelmalio in the Holy Country, he is a minor god, but present. No Sun Dome Temples or Yelmalion-dominated tribes though.

Non-Sun Dome Temple Yelmalions is a thing I've had to think about a bit since I'm playing around the Alone Confederation, where there are a couple of minor Yelmalio temples (one in a Alone, one in Amadhall if I remember correctly), and one of my players is a young Yelmalion in his apprenticeship years.

I'm still tweaking my view on the topic but so far I figured that since these people are proud of their martial discipline, they might spend a lot of time training and living together, somewhat more so than other cults. I picture it like having a military base near your town -- you'd see groups of them jogging around and doing mock deployments all in matching uniforms, but they also have a walled training compound with restricted access where they can be heard fighting.

I would contrast that against the Orlanth Adventurous and Humakti temples where members dress in various ways (although more goth-black with the Humakti!), and where the doors are possibly often open for anybody to come in and spar a bit, for a fee, like a dojo or boxing club. Of course, the Yelmalions have some days off and that's when they come into the local inns and run into "friendly chats" with the local Orlanthi. Queue most "infantry vs navy" scene in any army movie.

Edited May 11, 2022 by lordabdul

[tedium34]

I have much fonder memories of the HW paperbacks. All that time in the 1980s when I had to shuffle players from Balazar to Prax, quickly skipping across Sartar, because there was so little published about it, but with always the prospect of actual details soon. To then to discover the HW paperbacks in a bookshop (not a games shop but an actual bookshop!) finally telling me all about Orlanthi society and how it worked, was a joy. I never played HW/HQ (even if all the HQ books were the only RPG books I bought for years) but that reignited my love of Glorantha. Learning it was actually first age Orlanthi is a revelation, but actually makes sense.

 

[Martin]

I have  followed the discussions on the Yelmalio-Elmal threads over the years...the biggest thing i   would add is  i dont understand why people complain and moan about how Elmal was worshipped in  the Dawn Age and revealed as Yelmalio later....

Those that want to make a huge argument about why they dont like it etc etc ad nausuem should be glad they have the ability to discuss it with free speech and  a safe home and not be living in Mariupol or aniother Ukraine city with shelling and lack of power, food, water etc.

If they dont like it then ignore it or play another game or do another activity...frankly i find the seemingly endless debate on Elmal boring and sucks the oxygen from the creativity out of exploring Glorantha

Edited May 11, 2022 by Martin

[Jeff]

25 minutes ago, JonL said:

My copy of SKoH says "Chaosium" on the spine, as far as that goes. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yeah, things like moving from to the Guide + HQ2/G Rune rosters for the gods to the more limited RQG set have lots of subtle implications, but swapping Your Friendly Neighborhood Paladins for Mercenary Slaver Separatists is something of a hard swerve (to say nothing of erasing Redalda).

The question I'm most interested in here is how the native Esrovuli Little Sun traditions and myths might differ from what you might find in either Vanntar or Rune Gate.   

If you read through the Making Gods essay in KoS, the Elmali cult were not Friendly Neighbourhood Paladins according to most Sartarites. They were separatists, kinlayers, Lunar allies, and regicides, responsible for the deaths of least one tribal king and a Prince of Sartar. The Yelmalio revelations made the Elmali far less problematic as far as the Kingdom of Sartar was concerned. They could be their own thing, allied to Sartar but not a part of it.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

Yeah, things like moving from to the Guide + HQ2/G Rune rosters for the gods to the more limited RQG set have lots of subtle implications, but swapping Your Friendly Neighborhood Paladins for Mercenary Slaver Separatists is something of a hard swerve (to say nothing of erasing Redalda).

The question I'm most interested in here is how the native Esrovuli Little Sun traditions and myths might differ from what you might find in either Vanntar or Rune Gate.   

You sort of hit the nail on the head right here- the thing that has changed isn't really the history as such, but the idea of there being a sun god that's in tune with the general Sartar mood rather than being a grimly ascetic or domineering presence is what's been largely talked against in these post-Guide years. One strong Heroquest showing in King of Dragon Pass, and Elmal Guards the Stead of our hearts, because while on the level of pure text Elmal isn't all that different from Yelmalio in terms of asceticism and horsies and so on, Elmal is embedded in the society, and Yelmalio exists as a kind of breakaway culture detached from the broader culture, whether via the Sun Dome or the localization of sun-worshiping tribes in Sartar to the "foreign" immigrants from Tarsh up north of the Creek. 

And this obviously leads to an accentuation of the differences between the two gods. 

So the interesting question here is how we (creative explorers of Glorantha without intellectual property rights in it) should interact with this kind of question- do we take it as a given that initiating to a Sun god turns you into a popsicle/shish kebab, mentally? Do we try to Elmalize Yelmalio? Do we take it as a given that Elmalio/Yelmal has always been a killjoy, and attempt to foster an alternative solar pathway? I certainly don't know if there's a best answer here. But I do think that exploring Esrolian understandings of the Sun might give us some leeway

[Rick Meints]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Then make it easier for yourself. The canon for Chaosium is Chaosium publications. That way we can skip the Issaries and Moon Design publications (except for those that are now Chaosium publications). That way you can say Sun County and King of Sartar are canon, and Storm Tribe is not. 

To me these "canon" discussions are silly - I have 55 years of Glorantha in my office, from Greg, from Sandy, from myself, and others. The goal with the current edition is to present that text into a cohesive way that that lets RuneQuest and other games be played in a rich and deep setting that can be built upon for many years to come. 

I too feel that discussions about "canon" are simply not worth it. In the end they just end up insulting some, angering others, and disappointing the remainder of the people in the discussion. Use what you like, play with whatever works for you and your gaming group, discard what doesn't, regardless of the source. If there is a need to use labels, I'll just stick with "useful to me" and "not useful to me". I'm tempted to also use the label "worth collecting", but that doesn't really narrow down much RQ/Gloranthan material for me, and what's on my shelves. 

[JonL]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If you read through the Making Gods essay in KoS, the Elmali cult were not Friendly Neighbourhood Paladins according to most Sartarites. They were separatists, kinlayers, Lunar allies, and regicides, responsible for the deaths of least one tribal king and a Prince of Sartar. 

That's far beyond what Making Gods details. Your descriptions of the depths of their perfidy have grown more lurid with each passing year. That's fine. You can change stuff as you see fit, a right you've earned many times over. It's fine for perspectives to evolve or to decide that you'd prefer a different approach.

"Friendly Neighbourhood Paladins" though, while perhaps trite, is not at all out of step with how any of the previous 20 years worth of games treated them. This sort of "We've always been at war with East Asia." posture, along with "That thing you like is messed up and wrong." are part of what gets people's hackles rising when this comes up. It feels like in-house edition-warring.

[Jeff]

55 minutes ago, JonL said:

That's far beyond what Making Gods details. Your descriptions of the depths of their perfidy have grown more lurid with each passing year. That's fine. You can change stuff as you see fit, a right you've earned many times over. It's fine for perspectives to evolve or to decide that you'd prefer a different approach.

"Friendly Neighbourhood Paladins" though, while perhaps trite, is not at all out of step with how any of the previous 20 years worth of games treated them. This sort of "We've always been at war with East Asia." posture, along with "That thing you like is messed up and wrong." are part of what gets people's hackles rising when this comes up. It feels like in-house edition-warring.

I recommend a careful reread of King of Sartar:

"The withdrawal of the nomads revealed a greater threat: the native Dara Happan Solar religion which covered all the regions previously occupied by the nomads. The impact upon the Theyalans is recorded, but the crushing splendor of the great golden towers of the Dara Happan Sun God was especially strong upon the Elmali.

The Theyalans recognized that Yelm, the Dara Happan Great God, was the manifestation of their own Emperor, an enemy of Orlanth. The Orlanthi also realized that Yelm was also the Sun God.

Although no battle was fought pitting Yelm against Elmal, the overwhelming material and magic from the lowland religion slowly enriched the upland cult. The enrichment was at first in ways which did not matter at all, for the Orlanthi ways said nothing about them. So gold was the metal most used among them for non‑decorative items.

Later, some of the Elmal clans adopted lowland ways because they were more effective, such as when they started using the heavier Lod‑plow, or began weaving gold threads into their tapestries.

Once the Eyetooth Clan brought in the antesmia statue. They did it because they were rebelling against their king, and they wanted to be able to bring a Sunspear down from their god, and were willing to pay eternal worship and tribute to a foreign deity in order to succeed.

Tarkalor was the youngest son of Prince Saronil, who was very old or already dead at this event. He was looking for a way to make a name for himself, and had been dragged into a feud with Kitori clans. He sought allies among the enemies of his father, and promised the disgruntled Elmali that they could have their own lands, and the chance to make their own rules, if they would help him in his task against Darkness. They did, and as a result of their powers the Kitori were smashed, and their survivors ran away into the waste places. The conquered lands were divided among the victors. The best were given back to the beastmen, and the rest to humans. The Volsaxi Tribe was begun, and the Sun Dome Temple too. Monrogh, the first Son of Yelmalio, swore loyalty to Tarkalor when he became king, but no other count has.

Monrogh Lantern was the son of Jarosil, the son of Venharl, of the Running Fox Clan. As everyone knows, he had the Peculiar Vision at his initiation, but unlike all before him he saw the portents come true, recognized opportunity, and risked all to achieve it. He alone of hundreds since the Dawn succeeded and established the Temple.

Monrogh is the one who traveled to the Sun God to find the truth which was needed. He traversed the worlds, and met with the elf lords and the wandering souls who had still been seeking the vision. They were assembled as the Witnesses, who have brought their magics to the cult.

Monrogh did not know the name of the god for whom he searched, but when he returned to this world he brought back Yelmalio. This deity was already known among the elves, and was said to be the wounded body of the Sun limping across the sky (perhaps even the immortal part, since it was not in the Underworld with the Emperor.) He recited the List of Visionaries, whose works had prepared the way for the liberation of Yelmalio among humans.

The success of Monrogh at attaining the truth attracted the rest of the Elmal worshipers who wanted to join the new Sun religion. They were the first converts.

The number of converts grew quickly, and Monrogh organized a band under Varthanis Brighthelm to accompany Tarkalor’s kinsman, Dorasar, to the ancient city of Pavis. He was so much more popular than Dorasar (and successful against the trolls of the Big Rubble) that half the surviving tribes asked him to lead them.

Varthanis also chanted the List of Visionaries which included Arinsor Clearmind, a famous lord among the dragonfriends.

The old religious/social conflict of the traditional and innovative Sun worshipers had weakened many kingdoms throughout Peloria before. Tarkalor managed to disarm it and strengthen his position at the same time. Whether Tarkalor was conscious of what he was doing we do not know, and he did not tell."

Elsewhere Greg confirmed to me that:

"Prince Jarosar was fourth, who was called Hothead. He was the son of Jarolar. He found the Stone of Two Colors. He built a great road. He fell to poison, from a friend’s hand."

Referred to the Elmali. The Prince was killed by one of his own Elmali bodyguards (similar to Indira Gandhi being killed by two of her own Sikh bodyguards.