(in)SANinty for RuneQuest? 🤪

[icebrand]

Dont we NEED sanity rules?

What happens when the PCs enter a chaos nest, and find human remains decorating the place?

What happens when your friend, who fought side by side by you in countless battles, gets horribly mutilated and murdered in front of your eyes?

What happens when you come face to face with an ancient terror???

Does any of you guys use SAN? If so, what rules do you use?

[soltakss]

No, I don't use Sanity Rules in RuneQuest.

The Adventurers are hardened to horror through repeated exposure.

I keep Insanity for Lunar Madness effects.

[JustAnotherVingan]

I don't intend to but if I did I'd take a look at CoC Dark Ages rules. A lot of things that our sensitive 1st world 21st century psyches would recoil from would not be as shocking to someone who had always lived in a violent world.

[Eff]

26 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Dont we NEED sanity rules?

What happens when the PCs enter a chaos nest, and find human remains decorating the place?

What happens when your friend, who fought side by side by you in countless battles, gets horribly mutilated and murdered in front of your eyes?

What happens when you come face to face with an ancient terror???

Does any of you guys use SAN? If so, what rules do you use?

I wouldn't say so. The genre is completely different from Call of Cthulhu, so it doesn't make sense to treat stress and mental illness in the way that CoC does. 

I think that if I wanted to treat stress and mental illness in Runequest, I would probably use the Passions system, as phobias are already incorporated there. And I think that in the semi-Jungian model RQG is made under, what we call mental illnesses in modern psychology and psychiatry would be the influence of the Moon Rune and I don't really want to touch that land mine, but if a player wanted to formalize a character having a discrete mental disorder, I'd probably work that on a case-by-case basis. 

[Scornado]

I do not believe SAN rules are needed for RQ... it's not the essence of the game.

[Godlearner]

SAN measures one's beliefs in the basic natural laws. In RQ magic is everywhere, therefore anything is possible and that is the only basic natural law. Therefore, having SAN rules is pointless. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

not white, not black, I would say light grey :

if your campaign takes place in a standard gloranthan way, with lunar, sartarite, broos, praxians, etc... I would say no

however, if you are running a very (dark / water / light / earth / chaos / air) heroquest and your pc are not from this element (ex orlanthi walking in subere secret place, aldryami walking in magasta deepest place, etc) and "meet" the most hideous and hidden monsters why not.

but for me, it would be a kind of temporary stat, something to follow during the quest.

(i m thinking about it while i am writing, so apologize if something is not very smart)

something like a "test" after each very exposed station. If you don't pass the test (aka you roll under your insanity, you have a penalty for all your tests during the quest and you gain +10 to your insanity. if your success is special, you are ejected from the quest. if your success is critical, you are lost in the heroplane, for ever.

then at the end of the quest (successful heroquest, failure, or even ejected by insanity) you roll against this insanity. You succeed ? gain a fear passion (select the appropriate target) this passion starts at 60% or the insanity score (takes the higher)

a special ?  you fear, but you are attracted to some weird activity (you fear darkness, but you love being with a lot of worms, -10% penalty for any social role)

a critical? you gain a flow (no more shadow if you were in subere kingdom, or a "too active" shadow, doing things different from what you body does, for example, with of course penalty )

of course the different issues are cumulative

 

just an idea, and only for very dangerous and ambitious quests

[smiorgan]

Should I run a campaign where horror and chaos are very prominent and madness plays a major role, I'd use Passions and possession by Madness spirits. In the end I think RQG and CoC style Sanity rules aren't a good match and that the game already has plenty of subsystems that can be explored.

Note also that in an ancient world the self is tied with the social and with the divine and horror should not be purely individual and mental: lost honor, tainted reputations, ruined or estranged families, ostracism from cult or tribe, spirits of reprisal.  I'd think more of Greek tragedies such as Aeschylus' Oresteia trilogy, or Sophocles' Ajax or Euripides' Medea, rather than modern forms of psychological horror.   

[Beoferret]

I've wondered about this too, especially in regards to facing chaos. I think you can argue that yes (as previous posters have noted) PCs won't have any real problems dealing with the effects of violence per se. Glorantha's a pretty violent place, after all. But to my mind, dealing with chaos and even some forms of magic should be intensely stressful and potentially damaging to mental health; it'd have to be proportionate to threat of course, with encountering one broo as stressful as encountering one ghoul in CoC. Chaos is supposed to be scary and a little mind warping, isn't it? The Storm Bull ability to fight chaos without flinching and the spell Face Chaos are both supposed to be special and unique. Adding some basic SAN/mental stress rules (not necessarily ported over from CoC) would go a long way towards making that true. How to do it though....

[JRE]

One difference between the Dark Ages and Glorantha is the fact that Gloranthans have experienced already troubling moments in the God Time ceremonies. And they know, rather than believe, that god will care for them. So in general I agree sanity is something that probably would be a problem for rootless adventurers and outlaws. Passions work well for all the fear and loathing you may need. 

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Adventurers are hardened to horror through repeated exposure.

Are they already trained killers by the time they start play?

I can't really imagine a sword of humakt (or any rune lord for that matter) as a well adjusted individual... Do they sleep fine at night, or do they see the faces of every person they killed? Isnt the former MORE worrying?

1 hour ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I don't intend to but if I did I'd take a look at CoC Dark Ages rules. A lot of things that our sensitive 1st world 21st century psyches would recoil from would not be as shocking to someone who had always lived in a violent world.

I don't own CoC dark ages, but the stardard SAN rules are too cumbersome and out-of-genre to use IMHO (especially for my campaigns which are quite rules-lite compared with RAW)

 

1 hour ago, Eff said:

It doesn't make sense to treat stress and mental illness in the way that CoC does. 

I think that if I wanted to treat stress and mental illness in Runequest, I would probably use the Passions system

if a player wanted to formalize a character having a discrete mental disorder, I'd probably work that on a case-by-case basis. 

Yes, completely agreed, the CoC system aint a good fit (thats why im not just porting it and done with it).

I don't use passions, since i play RQ2 (please put those torches down, i have stacked extended shield on) lol so, the fix is too extensive to apply 😅

Players dont want to formalize mental disease, but being a bunch of highly trained murderers (and a healer that supports them) id hesitate to call them "sane" (this aint on them, anyone at their level MUST be wrong in the head)

56 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

SAN measures one's beliefs in the basic natural laws. In RQ magic is everywhere, therefore anything is possible and that is the only basic natural law. Therefore, having SAN rules is pointless. 

Im a firm believer that no matter how badass you are, seeing one of your close friends die in a horrible way in front of your eyes should maybe mean something, either now or later, instead of stuff being business as usual.

 

31 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

if your campaign takes place in a standard gloranthan way, with lunar, sartarite, broos, praxians, etc... I would say no

It does! Would you Say gloranthans are immune to PTSD then? Why is the humakti with 200 kills (in melee combat!) a regular dude that can enjoy downtime the same as a 14-year old voria initiate?

Shouldn't they be either a nervous mess or a fanatical zealot that hides behind their faith while performing "regular people" tasks that they shouldn't be emotionally fit to?

I mean, in sure humakt completely protects them and im sure they feel at home while on the battlefield or cleansing a chaos nest, but what happens when they need to arbitrate a dispute (inane to them but still they killed people for less in the past)

What happens when they need to give their nephew life advice?

What happens after such nephew joins the cult, comes with the sword on a mission, and gets eaten alive by a giant spider while screaming at their uncle for help? (Pro tip: humakti suck at life advice)

Does this guy just go back home, tell their sister "tough luck sis, ur son got owned lol" and keeps going as if nothing happened?

What happens if its a less psychopathic cult? (Im sure most swords actually lean closer to "tough luck sis", but what about... I don't know, orlanth or something).

And yes, i know passions already solve like... Half these issues 😅

29 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

I've wondered about this too, especially in regards to facing chaos. I think you can argue that yes (as previous posters have noted) PCs won't have any real problems dealing with the effects of violence per se. Glorantha's a pretty violent place, after all. But to my mind, dealing with chaos and even some forms of magic should be intensely stressful and potentially damaging to mental health; it'd have to be proportionate to threat of course, with encountering one broo as stressful as encountering one ghoul in CoC. Chaos is supposed to be scary and a little mind warping, isn't it? The Storm Bull ability to fight chaos without flinching and the spell Face Chaos are both supposed to be special and unique. Adding some basic SAN/mental stress rules (not necessarily ported over from CoC) would go a long way towards making that true. How to do it though....

I was thinking more about the horrors of war, but yeah, those seem issues.

Like... Face chaos? No player ever ran from something they didnt want to!

 

[g33k]

My standard advice here is to look at the "Madness Meter" mechanic, from Unknown Armies.

CoC's SAN rules are really quite underwhelming, for a variety of reasons, and don't feel particularly apt to RQ, at all.

Edited May 2, 2022 by g33k
typo

[icebrand]

Just now, g33k said:

My standard advice here is to look as the "Madness Meter" mechanic, from Unknown Armies.

CoC's SAN rules are really quite underwhelming, for a variety of reasons, and don't feel particularly apt to RQ, at all.

Its been AGES since i read that book, gonna check it out when im back home!!!

[Godlearner]

17 minutes ago, icebrand said:

seeing one of your close friends die in a horrible way in front of your eyes should maybe mean something, either now or later, instead of stuff being business as usual.

In an insane society, a sane person would appear to be insane.

A Bronze Age, magic using culture, would have much different standards from ours.

[icebrand]

3 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

In an insane society, a sane person would appear to be insane.

A Bronze Age, magic using culture, would have much different standards from ours.

"UK researchers have found signs of PTSD up to 3,000 years ago. They say soldiers experiencing horrors of the battlefield (stock image shown) is not just a phenomenon of modern warfare. The earliest reference had been from the Battle of Marathon, 490BC. Pictured is a Mycenaean Vase decorated with Bronze Age warriors"

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2923799/amp/Did-ancient-warriors-suffer-PTSD-Texts-reveal-battles-3-000-years-ago-left-soldiers-traumatised-saw.html

[g33k]

22 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Are they already trained killers by the time they start play?

For RQ1/RQ2... not necessarily.
The example with Rurik shows a novice at beginning-of-play... but the "optional" prior-experience rules were very popular.  Many people seemed to have used prior-experience exclusively, never playing the basic "16 & fresh off the farm" n00b.

For RQG (the current edition) -- yes, many of them ARE "trained killers."  There are multiple paths of the soldier/warrior career, bandit, &c.  You trained some, of course, but you also got those occupational +Skill's in the field, in combat (or farming, for another occupation and another meaning of "in the field").

[icebrand]

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

For RQ1/RQ2... not necessarily.
The example with Rurik shows a novice at beginning-of-play... but the "optional" prior-experience rules were very popular.  Many people seemed to have used prior-experience exclusively, never playing the basic "16 & fresh off the farm" n00b.

For RQG (the current edition) -- yes, many of them ARE "trained killers."  There are multiple paths of the soldier/warrior career, bandit, &c.  You trained some, of course, but you also got those occupational +Skill's in the field, in combat (or farming, for another occupation and another meaning of "in the field").

many of them are. Many arent.

What happens when the chalana arroy stumbles into a cacodemon cannibal orgy?

Im sure the baabester gor starts play as a psycho already, but does being one give you immunity to violence???

Are all PCs Mike Myers or Jason Vorhees, unflinching killing machines, 100% hardened to everything?

I mean *not even conan* is like that. Several times hes rattled or scared, and id argue any chatacter that isnt is just Mary Sueing, at least a bit

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by icebrand

[French Desperate WindChild]

37 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Why is the humakti with 200 kills (in melee combat!) a regular dude that can enjoy downtime the same as a 14-year old voria initiate?

remember the differenec between glorantha and irl

dead people continue to "be" for ever in the underworld . that is knowledge for glorantha, only hope and faith for irl (and of course all the range of doubt, from 0% to 100%) 

[Godlearner]

34 minutes ago, icebrand said:

soldiers experiencing horrors of the battlefield

Did they use magic? No? I rest my case.

[icebrand]

Just now, Godlearner said:

Did they use magic? No? I rest my case.

Modern soldiers do use "Magic" (and better magic to boot, a flying wind lord has nothing on an f35 😂)... Check mate, theist!!! 

[Godlearner]

8 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Modern soldiers do use "Magic" (and better magic to boot, a flying wind lord has nothing on an f35 😂)... Check mate, theist!!! 

Not quite. There is no technology that summons ancestor spirits, creates undead (not counting politicians), or allows you direct communication with the Divine. all of which would lead to a SAN checks in modern world.

Your move. 

[icebrand]

Just now, Godlearner said:

Not quite. There is no technology that summons ancestor spirits, creates undead (not counting politicians), or allows you direct communication with the Divine. all of which would lead to a SAN checks in modern world.

Your move. 

Back at you: magic is not only irrelevant, but detrimental for the gloranthan person.

For every chalana arroy healer that saves your life and warms your heart with a smile, theres a thanatari broo thats ripping your priests head. Theres ogres eating your wifes family, theres vampires slaving and drinking your cousins.

If you just run away you get eaten by chaos... If you are lucky.

And the "good guys"... Well... You have Patrick batemans with swords, you have maniacs that seem to have catched rabbies on purpose, you have psychos that collect genialia from their víctims and attach them to their axes...

Oh, and don't forget the Empire led by a literal god with his literal godling daughters that actively helps chaos unravel the fabric of reality...

Dude, if chtulhu ever comes to glorantha it aint to destroy it, its to ask porchango for tips!! 

[Godlearner]

6 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Back at you: magic is not only irrelevant, but detrimental for the gloranthan person.

I fundamentally disagree as magic penetrates the very fabric of everyday life. Every time you cast a spirit spell, every ceremony you participate in which recreates a mythological even with observable, tangible, and measurable results.

9 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Dude, if chtulhu ever comes to glorantha it aint to destroy it, its to ask porchango for tips!! 

Chtulhu is just an incarnation of the Chaos Dragon. Even the none Chaotic ones are Gods and beyond. Seen one, seen them all.

[JustAnotherVingan]

54 minutes ago, icebrand said:

many of them are. Many arent.

What happens when the chalana arroy stumbles into a cacodemon cannibal orgy?

Im sure the baabester gor starts play as a psycho already, but does being one give you immunity to violence???

Are all PCs Mike Myers or Jason Vorhees, unflinching killing machines, 100% hardened to everything?

I mean *not even conan* is like that. Several times hes rattled or scared, and id argue any chatacter that isnt is just Mary Sueing, at least a bit

 

I'd rather leave it to my players to roleplay.

They know RQ is a deadly game compared to D&D for example and have no wish to roll up new characters every session. By emphasizing they are a part of a society where most, including "monsters" like trolls accept surrender and ransom, and their actions have consequences the worst excesses of murder hobo-type play tend to be avoided.

PTSD isn't really something you can give rules for. Its effects are longterm, not immediate, and vary considerably both in type and severity from person to person.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

many of them are. Many arent.

<SNIP>

Bowing out of this thread.
Not only are you and I "not on the same page," I'm dubious we're even reading from the same book.

I can only quote the maxim, "YGMV"

Good luck in your quest for sanity.